R972 Trinnov User Notes - Page 12

I have a Velodyne SMS-1 in my system that I use to add boost down low for my DIY subwoofers. The SMS-1 also has a real time subwoofer graph that covers 200hz to 15hz so you can see the response of your subs on your display and add corrections as needed.

Below is not the graph from my SMS-1, just found it on the net to give you a visual of what I am talking about:

That helps. I used REW to measure the Trinnov EQ today. Whenever I enable the 3D mapping, it shows a 5-10 dB drop in the output below 60Hz. I can adjust the gain control to bring up the subwoofer level. Is there a reason for 3D mapping to drop the output in this region? I'm thinking that's why people would like to use 3 dB or 6 dB curves.

In my room, the Flat has a sharper cut off in the 30Hz where the Natural will extend further when 3D mapping is NOT enabled.


Continue my story, when 3D mapping is enabled, there will be a drop in 60Hz or so below. It is a significnat output drop. So the 6 dB boost is not really a boost but to bring the levels back on check (in my room at least).

There is a bump in the 100Hz region. Because my -6 dB point for mains and center are at 80Hz, the bump should result from crossover integration. If I switch the phase from 0 to 180 on the sub. The shape of bump would change (proving that's the real crossover region). I did most measurement last night. Haven't had chance to see how these impact my movie settings. I listened to a few two channel music. The bass boost did impact the fullness of the sound.

I will post my measurement picture tonight. That should help you understand the story.

My question still reamins: why would 3D mapping (as well as all other mapping) create a drop in 60Hz and below?

Presuming you mean the trims on the 972, note that the trims you can see via the menu's are for Trinnov disengaged, and if I understand correctly, the ones displayed when the Trinnov setup is queried are measured relative levels, i.e. the inverse of trims qualitatively and I don't know what quantitatively.

You could deduce what the actual trim levels are by switching to manual and comparing the SPL with what Trinnov gives you, though the EQ would throw that off.

Noah,

If the Trinnov results screen is showing -19 to -20dB for the main channels and -5dB for the sub does that mean that these are 'not the actual trim settings' that are being used by 972,that it's just indicating an internal (separate from trim controls) reduction/adjustment value in dB needed to keep from digital clipping for each channel?

If that's the case then I'm guessing there really is no way to know what the trims are actually set to with Trinnov engaged.

Does Trinnov add gain after it applies EQ to compensate for the level reduction?If it doesn't,how do you determine what reference level is by using the main volume control after EQ is applied,since the dB indicator for the volume control would now be arbitrary and not be of any accuracy.

Very interesting,so using the 6dB boost file actually brings the bass level back in line when using 3D remapping.As a matter of fact, I think I remember mention of that being the reason for the 6dB boost file somewhere.If your not using the 3D remapping though, wouldn't you end up with a big boost instead for everything else?

When I had 3D mapping off the bass seemed even more overbearing to me.I thought it sounded more controlled with the 3D mapping on.Go figure!

Seems like there are alot of compromises involved using this unit.

You measured a bump at 100hz when Trinnov is using an 80hz xover?

Maybe that's why the bass on my system sounds off.That wooliness could be to much mid-bass from the bump.I would have figured Trinnov would reduce the bump around the crossover if it's actually optimizing the crossover blend.

Steve...you should turn down the gain on your sub amp so the results screen has the mains and the sub levels closer together.

Have you read the User notes written by Curt?

I believe i tried that and it the level went rom -5 to -3 for the sub and the others went down as well.I'll try again tonight and see what happens.

Are the trims ideally supposed to be all as close to 0 as possible,Because that's what I was hoping I would be able to achieve through manipulation of the MC-12's levels and trims etc...

-5 to -3 is a rise.

No, not 0, but close to each other.

I meant -8,Sorry

So,I need to reduce the sub level by 14dB.If I do that then the calibration will likely not pick up the test tones as loud enough and it will just keep trying for the sub.

Do I need to jack up the overall volume level on the MC-12 to compensate or am I just going to be chasing my own tail at this point lol!

That particular part of the user notes I found to be a little confusing the way it's worded.

I actually think that MC12 is causing more problems that it's worth. But yes, do what you have to do to get the levels closer together.

If I were you, I would take the MC12 out of the chain and see how it works out.

Could this this be partly the reason why I thought the bass didn't sound right?

Was it a result of the sub level being to high compared to the other channels or is that taken care of by the 972?

Is the MC12 before the R972? Are the two connected via the 7.1 analog input on the R972?

Yeah, it does seem to be over complicating things,but I was hoping I could use it with the Trinnov EQ as well.

By the way,I'm a little confused on this....is remapping still active if the EQ is set to on and it still shows cinema and music as choices at the bottom of the EQ screen even if you don't select the 2D/3D,Autoroute,DLY+LVL option?

It's placed after the 972 and I'm trying to use it as the main volume control.That's what's making this a pain in the butt is trying to get the levels and gain stages between the 2 right and have accurate volume indication.If it's even possible to due correctly.

I think it is a possibility, but with things like this, it is trial and error since it is not a standard config.

Like the user notes state, it has more do to with digital headroom.

Also, like I previous mentioned, I think your dynamic range is noticeable compromised by using the MC12 and R972 together.

I don't think it is just over complicating things, it is also hindering performance IMO.

There are three pieces to Trinnov in the menu:

Trinnov Room EQ: This is the speaker EQ.
Trinnov Spatial Mode: This determines if you want to correct for speaker placement in 2D or 3D, Autoroute (choose the best speaker for a specific channel) or just set the Levels/Delays (LVL+DLY)
Trinnov Remapping: Music or Cinema, choosing between the two changes the angles that are used in Trinnov Spatial Mode.

Raise the speaker gains on the MC12, and lower the gain on the sub.

Whether the 6 dB is a boost or not will depend on your room. You saw some people prefer 6 dB. Here is the measurement in my room:

Attachment 247438

The first one is with and without 3D remapping. The FR is much smoother. It is Trinnov's decision to tame the 40-80 region I guess. But the result generates a reduction in 20-60Hz.

Attachment 247437

The second picture is I adjusted the gain and moved the measurement position to another very close spot. 400Hz above doesn't change that much. The peaks between 100-300Hz still exist. But it brings some levels back.

This is what the measurement says. I have a baseline of where the gain control on the subwoofer could be. And I'll likely to adjust it to my liking.

So to answer my own question, the "drop" in 3D mapping is Trinnov's effort to tame 60-300Hz. The subwoofer crossover is 80Hz for mains and the center.

I'm also guessing either I don't have much room gain or my subwoofer output is limited in the 30Hz region.

I moved the sofa and subwoofer a little bit. Re-did the calibration.

Attachment 247466

Much better result this time. The Natural curve has a bass boost and a faster roll out at 9K than Flat. Flat is overall flatter. One line has the Cinema EQ on and you can see the 6K above roll off faster.

I'll be using Natural + 3D Mapping for now with Cinema EQ off.

I have another question on the Subwoofer. In the Pre-calcuation, Trinnov says the -6 dB for Sub is 19Hz. But from my measurement, it dropped 10 dB from 40Hz. I did a sweep tone between 30-40Hz. There isn't much output at 30Hz.

- How did Trinnov decide -6 dB at 19Hz? I'd think this is more like -10 dB (almost no output).

- From the data, it looks like my Sub would benefit from a 6 dB boost in 30Hz region, which is common now for many subwoofer plate amp. Did Trinnov do EQ at 30Hz level? I would understand if Trinnov doesn't do it because it would risk running out the Xmax of the Subwoofer. For me, it is a decision of whehter I should replace an amp with 6 dB boost or not (And I have the same risk of bottoming out the driver because it's a commercial product and I have no data on the driver spec).

- I still have an Audyssey MultiEQ machine. I never measure it. I guess Trinnov makes me serious about EQ. It would be a great case study but would be a pain to connect all of them.

I also find out when Trinnov is enabled and 972 is in Stereo mode, the center channel will have some "ambient" sound coming out (Surrounds are silent). I guess that's part of the Trinnov magic?

If you have Remapping engaged and your L/R placements do not match your specified angular subtense (e.g. Cinema: ±22°; Music: ±30°), then Trinnov uses output from C and/or SL/SR to remap L/R to the desired virtual placements -- at least that is my understanding. In your case, I would surmise that your L/R angular subtense is wider than specified, hence Trinnov is using lower level output from the C to narrow slightly your L/R virtual placements.

AJ

That is correct. That's why I said it was Trinnov magic. The woofers on the center channel are vibrating. I was surprised to see that and quite pleased.

It is also interesting that when I thought I aimed the microphone correct at the center, it is always 4-8 degree off. I have to move the tripod a bit "off the center" (to my eyes) to get the zero degree. I tried to move the center speaker a bit as well.

In some positions, the H angle of 90 from Sub will consistely show up.

The puzzle now is the reported 19Hz -6 dB from Sub vs. what I'm measuring. I will disconnect the AVR and do a direct signal sweep tone into the Sub to see if I can get more output at 30Hz region.

For now, I'm leaving Trinnov to do it's magic.

I still couldn't get the RF remote to work ...

Sorry, I didn't see this until just now. Well, what I think is that it improves the speaker integration to the point where it is seamless. The soundstage is natural and everything seems perfectly placed. I also think it helped the integration to my subs although I am using the 6db boost which seems more correct than without it.

The graphs you posted add more insight into what Trinnov is doing,nice job. I can't say that I like what is doing to the bass though.

I heard a noticeable reduction in the bass when I switched 3D mapping on.I also get a 90 degree angle indication for the sub when the results screen first comes up and then the screen flashes and the angle returns to 0.The angle on the other speakers also changes slightly as well.It seems flaky to me.

I get a 19hz -6dB result as well.Makes me wonder if I'm really getting any bass below 30hz based on the results of your measurements.

I ran about 6 calibrations yesterday and I get all speakers to report angles,distance,levels,x-overs etc... and when I take a calibration disc and play the 5.1 test tracks with 3D mapping on there is zero output from the center channel.Trinnov keeps mapping the center to the left and right as a phantom center.

If I use the calibration I save to position 2 from my first and more consistent measurement session,I have output from the center channel.It seems like depending on where the x-overs are determined,that either Trinnov is not liking where I'm trying to push the x-over down by using the low-pass control for the sub,and it's either resulting in too low of a x-over for the center and it's just completely bypassing the center channel or there is something not working right.

The center channel x-over in these calibration runs ended up at a higher point than the first time I performed the calibrations and none of them resulted with any output from the center channel.I have the mic in the same exact place verified through measurements and the results screens give me the same consistent angles and distances,but the x-overs are completely different and higher than where I had got them before using the same low-pass setting.

I've never had these kinds of inconsistent results and had to try and run so many calibrations with Audyssey Pro.I run it once and it gives me consistent results and sonically sounds the same to me between each calibration run.I also don't get x-over results in the 150- 200hz range with the suggested x-over recommendation.I know Trinnov and Audyssey don't use the same measurement philosophy,but I would still think they would be closer in overall results.

Just my .02 cents.

Been my experience as well. With that in mind, I hope Trinnov gets licensed into some mid-priced pre-pros and receivers. I mean, there should be some consumer choices priced inbetween a $600 Sherwood receiver on close-out and a $12k ADA outboard room correction box.

It isn't the EQing that is the issue, it is the spatial mode (which Audessey doesn't have) that is dictating the output. What is the difference in height between your L/R and C speakers? Where are you pointing the mic?

Did you run Audessey through your MC12? It isn't the measurement results that count, it is how it sounds.

I second what Randy and Sanjay are saying.

So far, Trinnov is the only RC system I've used that didn't require post-calibration futzing to get the subwoofer/mains integration right. While admittedly I haven't yet measured it, it sounds right.

Room gain, sub placement and the funiture close to the sub has quite some effect in calibration. These would impact Trinnov's data acquisition and filter calculation.

Let's say there is a chair close to your subwoofer when Trinnov acquires the data, the chair was moved after filters enabled. This might impact the accuracy of the integration. It will show up in measurement. If the chair is big enough to impact room gain of lower frequencies, you'll hear/feel that too.