R972 Trinnov User Notes - Page 14

In case anyone was wondering I found out what my reference levels are using Avia calibration disc.

I actually got 2 reference levels as I use Video 1 for movies with Trinnov Spatial mode set to 3D remap and Video 2 for music set to DLY + LVL.

To get 85db (which is Reference with Avia) on my Galaxy SPL meter I had the volume at +7 for Video 1 and +5 for Video 2. I am assuming that means my average listening volume for movies of -5 would equate to -12 on a THX pre-amp? If so then that is right in my wheel house as I have always been between -15 and -10. For some reason it seems louder though but comfortable.

I noticed when playing the channel ID test tones from the AIX calibration BD that when my side surrounds would play so would my back surround. When it got to the back surround it was the only one playing. This was with 3D Remap engaged. I don't know what was happening with the front channels as they are behind an AT screen.

I also noticed that while playing the Avia calibration tones the front left and right's were right at 85db but the center and surrounds were about 82db. Even though it seemed off I went ahead and listened to some music and movie clips and everything sounded perfectly balanced.

This Trinnov is truly an enveloping experience, I am really liking it.

The remapping won't give you an accurate result with a calibration disc.I have input meters on the MC-12 for all 6 channels and when it was in the loop you get levels that differ wildly from normal codecs channel results vs.the 3D mapping etc...The center can have much higher level than the rest or the surrounds can be significantly higher than the other channels in level or left and right levels can be very different.

It's very interesting to see how Trinnov uses the various channels to create spatial images.

Bump on the above. If someone has an answer, please chime in.

I can experiment, of course, but my equipment is stowed away in a hard to navigate in cabinet in another room, and I'd rather not pull things out if my ideas are not going to work.

Actually, just thinking aloud, why can't simply use the FR/FL direct pre-outs to feed the Stereo amp driving my Stereo speakers, with a different Trinnov preset, thus eliminating the need for the DAC?

That one should work. I don't think you can run Trinnov for Room 2.

Jeff

I put the R972 into the cabinet as I think I'm done tweaking and it's time for enjoyment. Well, I moved it out again and did some experiment. This time, mostly subwoofer setting.

This is what I found out.

The way Trinnov display the -6 dB is related to the Subwoofer setting. My front and center in Audyssey are: 40Hz and 60Hz - which are close to the design spec (Main -3 dB below 40Hz, center -3 dB at 55-60Hz). Trinnov reported -6 dB for 80Hz for all of them.

When I put Trinnov through Subwoofer crossover and uses the internal Subwoofer crossover at 100Hz, Trinnov reported -6 dB at 55Hz for mains and 60Hz for the center. The Subwoofer crossover decrease the output volume, output frequency but it extends deeper in that setting. You can tell the difference from the Subwoofer's testing tones from Trinnov.

I recorded this setting in Position 3.

For me, I know Subwoofer's capability and where the excursion would reach its limit. But it would be difficult for Trinnov or Audyssey to figure out. Anything below 30Hz is always a dangerous game as the volume could kill a subwoofer if not handling "tastefully." EQing in this region requires power too. If I boost the frequncy at 30Hz by 6 dB, a 300W amp would now be like 75W amp. So I believe intelligent human intervention is helpful in this region. Well, we'll see if the position 3 sounds any different when Sauron of LOTR drops his ring.

Room 2 use of Trinnov is covered in The User Notes. Essentially, you can use one of the Trinnov presets to calibrate and run a second "Trinnov" room, but only one room can be on at any time. If you want to run two rooms at the same time, you can, using the R972 second room feature (with Trinnov active in main room only). See the User Notes for more details.

Cheers,

Curt

Curt (or Roger, or Jeff, or anyone else who might have insight), I have a question about using Trinnov in a multichannel nearfield setup, to be used 100% for music, either discrete multichannel (SACD/DVD-A) or 2-channel matrixed out by DPL2. I'm intrigued by the user's guide about the "lazy W" setup you mention.

Here are the constraints of my particular system:

1) Fairly deep desk (Herman Miller George Nelson Action Desk, 30" deep and 48" wide). Since it's a workspace, I can't go overboard with damping the top surface.
2) 24" LCD, trackball, wired Apple aluminum slab keyboard, and 13" MacBook sitting on the desk.
3) Single subwoofer, separately powered and EQ'ed. Without filtering subwoofer is clean to about 700Hz.
4) Two loudspeaker options for mains, both designed for constant midrange directivity. One option has 8" concentric drivers that radiate ~90º from ~1.5kHz up (blooming to omni below, and narrowing at starting about 9kHz), and the other option has ~4" concentric drivers that radiate ~120º from ~2kHz up (blooming to omni below, and narrowing above 10kHz). I have five of each available.
5) Side surrounds, which have ~90º coverage from ~2kHz up, blooming to omni below.
6) No rear surrounds practicable.

All that windup for a short question: for a nearfield setup, is the "W" setup up front - three speakers high, with two on the desktop - worth a try, compared to just having the front three speakers high in a line firing down at the listening position?

True, it's overkill for the primary use (background music while working at home), but sometimes I will also just "escape" to the study when I'm home alone, because my task chair (a Teknion Contessa) is more comfortable than my couch.

A few questions
1. To the people that got their R972 set up correctly. How and where did you have the mic set up for each speaker location?

2. How many times did you have to run the setup?

3. How would you rate it compared to Audyssey, Audyssey XT32, ARC, YPAO, MCACC, and other room correction system?

4. How large is the sweet spot? Is it big enough for 1, 2, 3, etc. people?

5. People that are not sitting in the optimum position, would they enjoy any benefit from the Trinnov Optimizer?

6. Have anybody had any success with Magnepan speakers?

7. Those that have been living with it for more than 2 months, with it quirks, do you feel like it’s a good buy?

1. Trinnov works from a single microphone position. I put the mic at ear height in the money seat.
2. Typically a single calibration is sufficient. Very rarely many tries and much patience are required.
3. Dr. David Rich has tested virtually all of these and prefers Trinnov. You can search for his review of the R-972 on-line.
4. When I was running Trinnov demos at trade shows, all of the improvements were audible to me even if I was at the side of the listening area. With that said, some of the repositioning can be very seat specific. I think as a general rule, the closer your speakers are to ideal placement, the larger the sweet spot.
5. In my opinion, yes.
6. Although I have no experience calibrating Magnepans, I was able to successfully calibrate with other flat panel speakers.
7. Hopefully others will help answer this question. Personally, I've been using Trinnov for over two years and would not give it up. Period.

Jeff

Jeff covered it pretty well above.

I have had mine for about 2 month or more already and have tried it in both my systems. I will say that Trinnov is definitely worth it for a movie system but have had mixed results with music compared to a Onkyo 5508 which has Audyssey XT32. I prefer music with the 5508 but movies with the 972. I will say that if I could buy a Onkyo 5508 with Trinnov then I am sure that would be my preferred system since I get more detail and separation with the 5508 regardless of EQ so the spatial re-mapping of Trinnov would just be icing on the cake.

For the price of the 972 it is a no brainer IMO, your not going to be able to touch it's performance for double the price.

One other thing I wanted to add before you get the R-972 jamjam is that if you are not a patient person then take a pass and go with something else.

Every time I do a new Trinnov calibration I do a manual reset as I have not had good results unless I do that first. This means I have to go back and re-do all my settings each time as the unit is put back to it's original factory settings. It also take at least 2 or 3 calibration runs until I finally have the Trinnov mic pointed correctly, very slight adjustments. I also have to sometimes switch inputs back and forth when it does not lock onto a video signal's. I also have had the bass boost update not take so I have gotten used to doing before and after measurements to ensure the bass boost is in effect.

If Trinnov wasn't soooo good I would have dumped the R-972 awhile ago but IMO it is worth the quirks, the sound stage that is thrown up around you is like a dome of sound that is outstanding.

With the R-972 it will test your patience but if you can deal with it then you will be rewarded.

Thanks,
You say it’s the best for movies, with its technology I believe that.
How good is it with music (CDs, SACDs, and listening to the radio)?
Where does it place you and how do it compare to the others?

It's good with music but compared to the Onkyo 5508 it loses some detail and separation. A great track I used to hear the difference was with a track that featured a snare drum with other instruments and vocals. The snare drum was a lot more detailed with the Onkyo as well as the other instruments and vocals. With the 972 the snare drum was more in the background and definitely not as clear as all the instruments were more meshed together instead of distinctive. With the 972 the vocals dominated the track but with the Onkyo the vocals were still in the forefront but you could clearly make out the other instruments which were not so pushed back.
I do feel this may be more of a function of the components rather than the EQ solutions as I heard both the 5508 and 972 without EQ as well and still felt the 5508 was just cleaner and more detailed. That is why I mentioned earlier that a Onkyo 5508 with Trinnov would be the best of both worlds for me.

I still think the R-972 is a screaming deal and cannot think of another receiver in it's closeout price range that can touch it. It does sound very good with music and it wasn't really fair to compare it to the Onkyo 5508 which is a lot more expensive but I did it anyway

MJ, If you haven't tried this scenario, shut off 2D/3D remapping, and just set it to LVL+DLY.

I actually have tried it, don't care for 3D remap with music but 2D is pretty good and LVL+DLY is as well. Still missing the detail that is much more evident with the 5508. I also prefer the EQ set to Audiophile 1 for music but like that slight boost under 200hz that Natural provides for movies.

3D remap for movies though is insane, my downstairs system uses Von Schweikert TS-310 surrounds which are phenomenal but sit a little too low which I have not gotten around to building stands to get them higher up on the wall. With Trinnov I can almost leave them at there height of about 3.5 feet but they sound higher. With the 5508 the surrounds are much more distracting but almost disappear with Trinnov.

Thanks for the tip cschang.

Yeah, I find that with 2D and 3D remapping, that I lose some detail with music, but it is there with LVL+DLY. It was also mentioned in a professional review. Some detail or treble energy is pulled into the surrounds, giving a sense of it missing in front of me. What you get back is a more spacious sound. I am torn between the two.

In my setup, I lean towards Audiophile 2 for music, and Natural with 3D for movies.

For movies, Trinnov's spatial correction is excellent!

I am going to have to try out LVL+DLY again, I went back and forth with it and 2D for music.

All in all I really like the 972 though, it can do some magic and I am rooting for Trinnov to make it into even more reasonably priced gear in the future.

I’m coming from a Denon 3805 and a Marantz 6003 receiver. I wasn’t too satisfied with the Marantz; I always felt that the Denon sounded better.
I will only use the 972 for movies, radio and CD’s. I rarely used my receiver for TV (Only for certain TV movies and sports), so I think I will be ok with its quirks.
I’ve ordered one from A4L and will receive it in a few days; I’m just trying to get ahead of the curve in setting it up. From what I’ve read of what it can do, I think it’s a no brainer. Hopefully I’ll feel this way after I get it. If I have any more questions before and after I receive it, I will be posting.

Thanks

Hey JamJam, wondering if you got your R-972 up and running? Post a report if you get time. I'm thinking about getting this unit as well.

I've had my 972 for about a week now. I ran the Trinnov several times making slight adjustments to speaker placement and sub settings. I have it where I like it now. I did notice that the bass is reduced somewhat when Trinnov is on. I just adjusted the sub level to compensate for that. I really like the way it sounds!! I had a H/K AVR2600 and the sound quality is on par with it just more spacious. I also tried a H/K AVR7550HD and like the sound of the room correction better with the 972. The AVR7550HD had more oomph but the 972 sounds better overall.

Did you try the bass files?

I went to the website and couldn't find any update files.

Dumb question. Once everything is calibrated the volume dial works in this fashion. To increase volume turn counterclockwise, to decrease volume turn clockwise. Is this correct? This is not the US standard. US standard is increase volume clockwise, decrease volume counterclockwise. So is the calibration the cause of the volume dial working non standard?

I'm working from memory here, but I feel certain that the Sherwood Newcastle standard is: rotate clockwise in increase the volume and counterclockwise to decrease the volume. If your receiver works otherwise, I recommend you contact Eugene at Sherwood.

Jeff

With that said, I virtually never use the front panel control for volume. I always use the remote.

My 972 works the opposite (CW increases volume), like every piece of equipment I've ever seen.

Well I answered my own dumb question. Yes indeed the increase volume is clockwise, and the decrease volume is counterclockwise. The puzzling part was after calibration the starting point is not zero but a negative number. Confirmed with a friend this is normal after calibration.

Thank you all for humoring me with my dumb question.

One other question though, after calibration, when scrolling though all of the settings, e.g., sterero, suurround sound, when playing audio the sound are flat. No high, low, bass, treble frequencies. How can I tweet it to my preferred emphasis on certain tones?

thanks.

Well I answered my own dumb question. Yes indeed the increase volume is clockwise, and the decrease volume is counterclockwise. The puzzling part was after calibration the starting point is not zero but a negative number. Confirmed with a friend this is normal after calibration.

Thank you all for humoring me with my dumb question.

One other question though, after calibration, when scrolling though all of the settings, e.g., sterero, suurround sound, when playing audio the sound are flat. No high, low, bass, treble frequencies. How can I tweet it to my preferred emphasis on certain tones?

thanks.

Well I answered my own dumb question. Yes indeed the increase volume is clockwise, and the decrease volume is counterclockwise. The puzzling part was after calibration the starting point is not zero but a negative number. Confirmed with a friend this is normal after calibration.

Thank you all for humoring me with my dumb question.

One other question though, after calibration, when scrolling though all of the settings, e.g., sterero, suurround sound, when playing audio the sound are flat. No high, low, bass, treble frequencies. How can I tweet it to my preferred emphasis on certain tones?

thanks.

Well I answered my own dumb question. Yes indeed the increase volume is clockwise, and the decrease volume is counterclockwise. The puzzling part was after calibration the starting point is not zero but a negative number. Confirmed with a friend this is normal after calibration.

Thank you all for humoring me with my dumb question.

One other question though, after calibration, when scrolling though all of the settings, e.g., sterero, suurround sound, when playing audio the sound are flat. No high, low, bass, treble frequencies. How can I tweet it to my preferred emphasis on certain tones?

thanks.