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R972 Trinnov User Notes - Page 17

post #481 of 633
Anybody please respond to post 479 ?????????????????

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post #482 of 633
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post

Anybody please respond to post 479 ?????????????????

Seasons greetings. The first place to look is at the level disparity you have between the sub and your speakers... Please refer to page 4 of the R972 User Notes for more details.

Cheers
post #483 of 633
Thread Starter 
R972 User Notes can be found at
http://www.cahoyt.com/Trinnov/R972Trinnov.pdf
post #484 of 633
Quote:
Originally Posted by amt View Post

AS, I think it will come down to personal preference on what to use. My concern would be losing some of the stereo effects from mid-bass with a 140 Hz crossover when using single sub channel.

Thanks amt.

I did set it up as 2.0. The set up process was flawless. I had tried marantz AV7005 with the same set up but R-972 is definitely better that Audyssey XT. Had some troubles with matching upsamling in PS3 with R-972 upsampling but finally figured it out.

I think this is the best sounding DRC enabled 2.0 pre-pro....the key word here is DRC-enabled...I am not trying to start the flame war.
post #485 of 633
Thread Starter 
A note regarding the relatively high 140hz crossover point. Generally, this is caused by having the Sub low pass filter off. Many subwoofers have response out to 500hz or higher. Trinnov looks for the midpoint between the sub and speaker roll off and sets the xover there. Sometimes one can successfully push down the crossover point to 80hz by setting the Sub low pass to around 150hz. It's not precise, as it will be affected as well by the speaker roll off point.

Example: your speakers go down to 40hz, then setting your sub low pass to to 120 will result in an xover around 80. If the sub goes out to 500hz, the xover will be much higher. This is a simple view of it to give an idea how one can change the xover point. There are several factors involved, including speaker room behavior, so you just have to experiment till you get both the numbers and sound you are after.
post #486 of 633
Quote:
Seasons greetings. The first place to look is at the level disparity you have between the sub and your speakers... Please refer to page 4 of the R972 User Notes for more details.

Cheers

Thanks for the response. I didn't have to do much changes. I did calibrate many times but there was a big difference in between levels of my loud speakers and sub-woofer. Today after installing base molding, I re-calibrated and wallaaaa. The difference reduced to -2 only. I don't know how but it did. The only difference is that I changed sub woofer volume to -10db before I calibrated since it was distorting the sound on 0 db. After calibration, loud speakers came to -19db and sub came to -17db. Then I switched to 3D mapping and sub still works great.

What Room equalizer option I should be using? Currently I'm using Phile 1 (don't know what this means).

Also remote control of receiver only works when I'm pointing to it dead straight (very odd). Is there some settings I need to change to make this remote work like all others do?

Thanks.
post #487 of 633
Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post

Thanks for the response. I didn't have to do much changes. I did calibrate many times but there was a big difference in between levels of my loud speakers and sub-woofer. Today after installing base molding, I re-calibrated and wallaaaa. The difference reduced to -2 only. I don't know how but it did. The only difference is that I changed sub woofer volume to -10db before I calibrated since it was distorting the sound on 0 db. After calibration, loud speakers came to -19db and sub came to -17db. Then I switched to 3D mapping and sub still works great.
What Room equalizer option I should be using? Currently I'm using Phile 1 (don't know what this means).
Also remote control of receiver only works when I'm pointing to it dead straight (very odd). Is there some settings I need to change to make this remote work like all others do?
Thanks.

Phile 1 only applies correction up to 300hz. Try using the Flat setting.The remote is pretty crappy and the IR receiver in the R-972 isn't very sensitive.No settings to fix that.
post #488 of 633
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

Phile 1 only applies correction up to 300hz. Try using the Flat setting.The remote is pretty crappy and the IR receiver in the R-972 isn't very sensitive.No settings to fix that.
Actually A.Phile 2 is just correction up to 300hz. A.Phile 1 tries to match the FR of the all speakers to the front speakers.

The remote is not good at all, but I find the R-972 to work well with my trusty Home Theater Master MX-700....and it seems no less sensitive they other pieces in my setup.
post #489 of 633
Quote:
Phile 1 only applies correction up to 300hz. Try using the Flat setting.
Quote:
Actually A.Phile 2 is just correction up to 300hz. A.Phile 1 tries to match the FR of the all speakers to the front speakers.

So how does one decide which one to use?
post #490 of 633
Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post

So how does one decide which one to use?
Whichever sounds best to you.
post #491 of 633
Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post

So how does one decide which one to use?
Pick the one that sounds best to you.
post #492 of 633
I Knew it was one of them that corrected up to 300hz.Didn't have the manual to to check.
post #493 of 633
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

I Knew it was one of them that corrected up to 300hz.Didn't have the manual to to check.
Steven, you know so much about the R972 rolleyes.gif So you also knew you could have been wrong. Maybe next time state that you may have it wrong, and/or list the possibilities.
post #494 of 633
Thread Starter 
EQs:

All EQ correction has a maximum correction range of +6dB to -12dB. Both amplitude and phase correction are applied.
Audiophile 1: full range correction on all speakers to best match front Left & Right
Audiophile 2: corrects all speakers only below 300Hz.
FLAT: full range correction on all speakers to "flat EQ," sometimes used with Cinema EQ
NTRL (Natural): slight tilt in the responce to porvide +2dB bass boost below 125Hz and a cut beginning at 9kHz with -2dB max cut at 20kHz.

Cheers,
post #495 of 633
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post

EQs:
All EQ correction has a maximum correction range of +6dB to -12dB. Both amplitude and phase correction are applied.
Audiophile 1: full range correction on all speakers to best match front Left & Right
Audiophile 2: corrects all speakers only below 300Hz.
FLAT: full range correction on all speakers to "flat EQ," sometimes used with Cinema EQ
NTRL (Natural): slight tilt in the responce to porvide +2dB bass boost below 125Hz and a cut beginning at 9kHz with -2dB max cut at 20kHz.
Cheers,

No wonder I like Natural so much wink.gif

Thanks for the more detailed explanation Curt.
post #496 of 633
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Steven, you know so much about the R972 rolleyes.gif So you also knew you could have been wrong. Maybe next time state that you may have it wrong, and/or list the possibilities.

Fly away clueless:rolleyes:
post #497 of 633
Thread Starter 
Hi All:

Anyone attending CES? Get in touch! We have four opportunities to hear Trinnov based systems:

http://www.trinnov.com/tri_news/ces-2013/

* Audio Design Associates – Venetian Suite 30-311 - ADA Reference driving a 7.3 channel RBH Sound speaker system

* ADA/DBox/Kscape/Triad – Venetian Bassano 2710 on Level 2 - ADA TEQ w Triad 5.4 System

* DTS, Central Hall, 9839. Trinnov MC-2 driving 6BE Focal Loudspeakers 11.2 (primarily a Headphone X demo)

* Audio Plus Services – Venetian Tower – Suite 30-117 - Trinnov ST2-HiFi driving Focal Diablo Utopias with a Utopia EM Passive Sub

Cheers,
post #498 of 633
Curt, does the R-972 expect a center channel for the Trinnov measurements? I was so impressed by what Trinnov did for the soundstage for one of my systems that I got a second R-972 and this has been a much more frustrating experience.

Here's the setup

R972 in a 4.1 config
PreOut L/R -> Separate Power Amp
Rear speakers -> Direct to R972
Subwoofer -> PreOut to powered subwoofer

Using the Pixar Home Theater Optimizer as my test disc.

INPUT -> OUTPUT (TRINNOV DISABLED)
Dolby Digital Left -> Left Speaker
Dolby Digital Center -> Both Left and Right Speakers
Dolby Digital Right -> Right Speaker
Dolby Digital Surround Left -> Surround Left Speaker
Dolby Digital Surround Back -> Both Surround Left and Surround Right Speakers
Dolby Digital Surround Right -> Surround Right Speaker
Dolby Digital Subwoofer -> Subwoofer

INPUT -> OUTPUT (TRINNOV ENABLED, 2D or 3D remap or AutoRoute)
Dolby Digital Left -> Left Speaker
Dolby Digital Center -> Both Left and Right Speakers
Dolby Digital Right -> Right Speaker
Dolby Digital Surround Left -> No sound at all
Dolby Digital Surround Back -> Both Surround Left and Surround Right Speakers
Dolby Digital Surround Right -> Both Surround Left and Surround Right Speakers appropriate balance.
Dolby Digital Subwoofer -> Subwoofer


INPUT -> OUTPUT (TRINNOV ENABLED, DELAY/LEVEL or OFF for Spatial Mode)
Dolby Digital Left -> Left Speaker
Dolby Digital Center -> Both Left and Right Speakers
Dolby Digital Right -> Right Speaker
Dolby Digital Surround Left -> No sound at all
Dolby Digital Surround Back -> No sound at all
Dolby Digital Surround Right -> No sound at all.
Dolby Digital Subwoofer -> Subwoofer


I have tried it with PCM multichannel out instead of letting the Sherwood decode.

I've tried resetting the unit. Repeating calibration. Changing out rear speakers. Reflashing firmware. Nothing works.

The measurements seem accurate
Front L: 22 H, 85 V, 3.49m, -6dB @ 38Hz, -33dB, 10ms
Center : None
Front R: -22H, 86 V, 3.41m, -6db @ 38Hz, -32dB, 10ms
SurroundR: -92H, 89V, 2.03m, -6dB @ 48Hz, -18dB, 5ms
Surround Back R: None
Surround Back L: None
Surround L : 96H, 83V, 0.94m, -6dB @ 48Hz, -14dB, 2ms
Subwoofer: 90H, 0V ,5.18m, -6dB @19Hz, 0dB, 15 ms

Those are the correct distances, expected bass, and appropriate levels (since the fronts are planars and rears are not.)

If I put a center channel and recalibrate, it works as expected. Thoughts?

Alan
post #499 of 633
I have been using my second R-972 in a 4.1 channel system and it has worked fine for me.
post #500 of 633
mjaudio, have you tried running a formal sound check using a Pixar disc, video essentials, avia, or something similar?
post #501 of 633
Quote:
Originally Posted by GXAlan View Post

mjaudio, have you tried running a formal sound check using a Pixar disc, video essentials, avia, or something similar?

Can't say I have but have not heard anything to indicate I should, everything sounds well balanced.
post #502 of 633
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GXAlan View Post

Curt, does the R-972 expect a center channel for the Trinnov measurements? I was so impressed by what Trinnov did for the soundstage for one of my systems that I got a second R-972 and this has been a much more frustrating experience.
......snip.......

If I put a center channel and recalibrate, it works as expected. Thoughts?

Alan

See Post 122 and others discussing 4.1. While Trinnov accurately reports 4.1 to the processor during Cal, the procssor does not expect a 4.1 configuration, hence the issues you are having. This has been documented, as well as a work around and discussion before and after Post 122.

Cheers.
post #503 of 633
Please excuse me if I am posting this in the wrong place. On the Emotiva Forum where I am a member there is a thread that's just been started where members share their knowledge and experiences with the different room correction technologies. The predominance of the discussion seems to center around Audyssey. I have just received my R-972, but have not learned enough about Trinnov yet to contribute to the thread over there. The thread seems to be assuming that all correction technologies correct just for the time and frequency domains. I thought I remembered reading somewhere that Trinnov (even in the version inside the R-972) corrects for more than just those two parameters, but I don't remember where I read that.

1) Can anyone shed any info on what domains Trinnov does affect and how that is different than Audyssey? I'm already a fan of Trinnov from just reading about it on this forum and the discussions here are what prompted me to order the R-972. Anyway, I also hope that exposure to Trinnov on Emotiva's site may spill over to more sales of the R-972 which hopefully will keep all "Trinnov Threads" everywhere alive longer.

2) Also, even though the R-972 only has one LFE it sums two subs better than most AVR's with one LFE out I read. But I can't find where I read that either. Supposedly Trinnov is unique in how it handles two subs from one LFE out and some regard it as about as good as Audyssey's Sub HT.

Any time spent in replying will be much appreciated! Thanks.

Devlon
post #504 of 633
Quote:
Originally Posted by islandman2020 View Post

1) Can anyone shed any info on what domains Trinnov does affect and how that is different than Audyssey? I'm already a fan of Trinnov from just reading about it on this forum and the discussions here are what prompted me to order the R-972. Anyway, I also hope that exposure to Trinnov on Emotiva's site may spill over to more sales of the R-972 which hopefully will keep all "Trinnov Threads" everywhere alive longer.

What Trinnov adds that is different from any other EQ I know of is Spatial Re-mapping which as I understand it measures your speakers actual physical location then uses it's magic to make it sound as they are all located in there proper location for both movie and music playback. I actually tried placing my center speaker on the floor and after an Trinnov calibration it made it sound like voices were coming right out of the center of my TV, not on the floor. I am sure others can come on and explain it much better than I can, all I know is it makes my speakers sound like one cohesive sound system, no longer listening to speakers but rather a soundfield that envelops you.
Quote:
2) Also, even though the R-972 only has one LFE it sums two subs better than most AVR's with one LFE out I read. But I can't find where I read that either. Supposedly Trinnov is unique in how it handles two subs from one LFE out and some regard it as about as good as Audyssey's Sub HT.

Any time spent in replying will be much appreciated! Thanks.

Devlon

The Audyssey XT32 receivers and pre-pro's that include SubEQ only adjust for delay and levels separately, once that is established the LFE signal is EQ'ed as one source which is the correct way to do it. From my personal experience XT32 with SubEQ in a Onkyo 5508 did a better job on the subs but Trinnov is not too far off. I actually prefer XT32 solely as a EQ but with it's lack of spatial re-mapping is what really set's Trinnov apart IMO.
post #505 of 633
I posted this in the main R-972 users thread but wanted to share it here as well:

The last 2 weekends I have experimented with one of my R-972s using dipole speakers for both side surrounds and rear surrounds. The speakers used were Boston Acoustics 575x for side surrounds and VRS Pro for rear surrounds. When running Trinnov, I found that the results were best when pointing the in-phase tweeters directly at the Trinnov calibration microphone. After calibration, I turned the speakers back to their original normal positioning. Before pointing the in-phase tweeters of the dipole speakers, the R-972 had to send the test signals 10 times to the dipole speakers during calibration. Sometimes it failed to identify one of the speakers. With the in-phase tweeters aimed at the microphone, the Trinnov calibration was successful after sending just 3 test signals to each speaker.

After playing with several different setups, I found that I preferred using a pair of side surrounds identical to the front 3 main speakers (All Boston Acoustics CR-8) in combination with a pair of smaller bookshelf speakers as front height speakers. The height speakers were hooked up to the R-972's rear surround speaker binding posts. As mentioned elsewhere in the R-972 Trinnov user notes thread, Trinnov adjusts for the rear surround speakers now becoming front height speakers. I really like the flexibility of the Trinnov calibration and I'll probably experiment with front wide speakers also before I finalize my speaker locations.

I want to stress the importance of resetting the R-972 before re-running Trinnov when making big changes like this. I used my iPhone to take pictures of all the setup screens so that I could very quickly re-enter settings after resetting the R-972.
post #506 of 633
Good point Tron, I also find it better to do a reset of the 972 before re-running Trinnov, if not I can get some really weird results.
post #507 of 633
Just got an R-972 not too long ago, and Trinnov is outstanding. I'm hoping more affordable solutions will become available to include Trinnov in the future, as I simply don't know how I could ever watch movies without it now. 3D remapping presents a soundstage that I haven't been able to recreate in any other config.
post #508 of 633
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post

A note regarding the relatively high 140hz crossover point. Generally, this is caused by having the Sub low pass filter off. Many subwoofers have response out to 500hz or higher. Trinnov looks for the midpoint between the sub and speaker roll off and sets the xover there. Sometimes one can successfully push down the crossover point to 80hz by setting the Sub low pass to around 150hz. It's not precise, as it will be affected as well by the speaker roll off point.

Example: your speakers go down to 40hz, then setting your sub low pass to to 120 will result in an xover around 80. If the sub goes out to 500hz, the xover will be much higher. This is a simple view of it to give an idea how one can change the xover point. There are several factors involved, including speaker room behavior, so you just have to experiment till you get both the numbers and sound you are after.

When you say crossover, do you mean roll-off point? I'm having a problem with my L/R speaker roll-off being calculated too high. I have 3 Sierra-1s L/C/R that go down to ~65Hz. Trinnov sets the roll-off point for the center at 80hz, but the L/R at 120. I have them flipped upside down (due to limited placement options) to keep the tweeter closer to ear level. Do you think the low end is falling out due to it's closer proximity to the ceiling? Would unflipping them, effectively putting the tweeter closer to the ceiling, give me better results since the 3D correction will hopefully bring the soundstage down?

Also, my rear left speaker doesn't make the same test tone noise as the rest of my speakers. It did for the first half a second, but every recalculation after that, it made a slightly less powerful sound than the rest (not volume, but texture). Did the receiver incorrectly mark my speaker out of phase and swap the polarity? It took 6 complete calculations for the Trinnov to come up with H and V angles for that particular speaker. The first 5 it only calculated distance. Any trouble shooting tips to help resolve the problem?
post #509 of 633
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stump909 View Post

It took 6 complete calculations for the Trinnov to come up with H and V angles for that particular speaker. The first 5 it only calculated distance. Any trouble shooting tips to help resolve the problem?

 

Never had the exact same issue but when the EQ numbers looked funny I always did a factory reset... which typically got the numbers back (except for one unit that never reflected anything but the Fronts) to where they belonged. I have wondered since the numbers appear to go South after so x attempts does the EQ processing do the same thing... get corrupted at some point?

post #510 of 633
Thread Starter 
Finding Speakers... particularly dipoles

Trinnov uses very high frequencies to identify where the speaker location precisely is. Best results are obtained with the speaker aiming directly at the mic, with no occlusion (things in the way). Dipoles and 3 way loudspeakers can be problematic, as dipoles have by design low high frequency output on axis, and 3 ways sometimes have a crossover between mid and tweeter at the angle measurement frequency, inducing phase errors where they are least desired. If a di-pole is never found, then you may want to temporarily aim one of the dipole's tweeters at the mic. It may then be localized, and the direct response will then be measured. Results with dipoles will vary broadly, as there are many types. You'll have to experiment to get best results. When you do, please report the type you are using and the result, so others may benefit!

Best sounding results are usually found by aiming speakers at the listener. This includes speakers that come with instructions to point them straight ahead, rather then at the listener. Such designs are intended to wash the room with power to provide an added sense of space and envelopment, which is not recommended when you intend to use Trinnov 2d/3d Remapping. If after calibration, the sound is too bright, you can try angling the speaker slightly away from the listening position. This will typically shift the highs away from you- which may instead become reflections (depending on the room).

See the Trinnov user Notes for more info...
http://www.cahoyt.com/Trinnov/R972Trinnov.pdf

Cheers,
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