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R972 Trinnov User Notes - Page 18

post #511 of 544
Thread Starter 
Difficult Calibrations- Listening to the cal signal to help figure out what's needed for success...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stump909 View Post

When you say crossover, do you mean roll-off point? I'm having a problem with my L/R speaker roll-off being calculated too high. I have 3 Sierra-1s L/C/R that go down to ~65Hz. Trinnov sets the roll-off point for the center at 80hz, but the L/R at 120. I have them flipped upside down (due to limited placement options) to keep the tweeter closer to ear level. Do you think the low end is falling out due to it's closer proximity to the ceiling? Would unflipping them, effectively putting the tweeter closer to the ceiling, give me better results since the 3D correction will hopefully bring the soundstage down?

Also, my rear left speaker doesn't make the same test tone noise as the rest of my speakers. It did for the first half a second, but every recalculation after that, it made a slightly less powerful sound than the rest (not volume, but texture). Did the receiver incorrectly mark my speaker out of phase and swap the polarity? It took 6 complete calculations for the Trinnov to come up with H and V angles for that particular speaker. The first 5 it only calculated distance. Any trouble shooting tips to help resolve the problem?

Speaker placement affects low output...

If the woofer further away from any room boundry (wall or floor), the xover point will rise. The issue appears that you have to compromise. Either have the woof lower or the tweeter at ear level. Try both, see which you prefer. Each may have it's benefits, and to predict the better is beyond the scope of a short answer:).

Cal Signal is always the same...

Rear left: Trinnov Cal signal does not vary. Correction is not applied to that calibration signal, only to the results. Good call on listening to the cal signal. You are hearing differences in the speakers.

Listening to the Cal Signal for clues...

Observing the cal signals is a very good thing: if cals are problematic, get behind the cal mic as the cal takes place. Listen. You'll hear all frequencies if you listen for them. In particular, for the higher frequencies (like hiss). Move your head as you listen, to see if the sound changes. If the speaker does not provide ample hi frequency output, it will not be found. Listening to dipoles, from the middle and from the sides, can be very telling. See the above note as to why the speaker is not being found. If a speaker is found immediately, you will hear 3 bursts. If more, then it's a good idea to listen. Compare an easily found speaker's cal sound with those of ones that require more bursts. Again- move your head to observe a difficult speaker from varying angles. You may get just the clue you need to get your system up and running. See notes above on di-poles for more clues.

Cheers,
post #512 of 544
Thanks Curt. Turns out the problem was a misdirected tweeter in the speaker. It's in-ceiling, so all I had to do was remove the grill and redirect the tweeter towards the listening area. After that adjustment, the missing frequencies returned. I tried a number of things to improve the bass response in my L/R, but nothing seemed to work. I unflipped them, tried different "q-plugs" in the ports, adjusted angles, but I couldn't get my -6db point to go any lower than 125hz. I guess I'll just have to trust the Tinnov. I just find it crazy that my center, which is only 3/4 of a foot lower, consistently measures at 80hz.
post #513 of 544
Thread Starter 
The Room plays a big part in the results
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stump909 View Post

Thanks Curt. Turns out the problem was a misdirected tweeter in the speaker. It's in-ceiling, so all I had to do was remove the grill and redirect the tweeter towards the listening area. After that adjustment, the missing frequencies returned. I tried a number of things to improve the bass response in my L/R, but nothing seemed to work. I unflipped them, tried different "q-plugs" in the ports, adjusted angles, but I couldn't get my -6db point to go any lower than 125hz. I guess I'll just have to trust the Tinnov. I just find it crazy that my center, which is only 3/4 of a foot lower, consistently measures at 80hz.

This is a great example of the benefits of DRC. One sets up a system with specs that lead us to conclude it should perform in a certain way, based on speaker specs, and then they don't match the expectation in real room performance. The room is changing the performance of your speakers and the DRC is correcting for that. In your case, you may have a dip in response due to room mode or boundary that is causing the actual SPL to drop in the L/R compared to the Center below 100Hz. In turn, your sub may be doing well in this region.

What you can do to understand more of what is going on.

Turn off Trinnov, then use the Dolby test signal in the 972 to listen to the difference between LCR- from the mic position. You may hear what the Trinnov is measuring. Listen to the sub too. If you want to go a step further in understanding, you could get a measurement tool of some kind to measure the speakers. Be advised, most measurement tools only measure the "power response," which tend to hide the speaker's earliest reflections in the room, which are an important gauge of transient response or tightness. This is the kind of work that goes on when full Trinnov systems are used. We are able to have measurements that help us to evaluate the speaker - room interaction and thereby maximize the results- via DRC and or modifications to the speakers and room. Lots of knowledge and experience goes into the critical evaluation of speaker room interactions, so typically folks with our systems ask for a professional interpretation of what's going on.



I've attached an example from a room I've been tuning that has an issue similar to yours. You'll be able to see that there is measured output in all the speakers well below 50Hz, yet the room interaction is causing nulls at 97 and 135Hz. We can't really fill in these with power, so the alternative is to move speakers or work around them- perhaps by shifting the bass management crossover.

What is remarkable in the R972 is that we are able to have full Trinnov processing available at the time (we've always improving the algorithms). What is left out is the ability to program the system for each speaker's physical capabilities, run multiple measurements, read the results, and fine tune if required.

Cheers,
post #514 of 544
Curt,

I am going to be setting up a new system in a dedicated room with the Sherwood. It will be 7.2. What configuration do you recommend for the 4 surround speakers? I am assuming that direct radiating will be best for the side surrounds, but in the back I have a window on one side, so I may be forced to install ceiling speakers. If I get one of the models that can tilt the tweeter/mid, do you think they will register correctly with the mic? I don't want to cut holes in the ceiling and then not be able to use the Trinnov.

Also, my room is rectangular 19*16 feet and the screen will be on the shorter wall. I was thinking of placing one sub in the front right corner and the other in the back left corner to even out response. Trinnov should be able to sum and calibrate the two together, correct? Any other sub positions you recommend I try? Seating will be about 13-14 feet from the screen wall. Thanks for your help.

Matt
post #515 of 544
Quote:
Originally Posted by MFLUGSTA View Post

Curt,

I am going to be setting up a new system in a dedicated room with the Sherwood. It will be 7.2. What configuration do you recommend for the 4 surround speakers? I am assuming that direct radiating will be best for the side surrounds, but in the back I have a window on one side, so I may be forced to install ceiling speakers. If I get one of the models that can tilt the tweeter/mid, do you think they will register correctly with the mic? I don't want to cut holes in the ceiling and then not be able to use the Trinnov.

Also, my room is rectangular 19*16 feet and the screen will be on the shorter wall. I was thinking of placing one sub in the front right corner and the other in the back left corner to even out response. Trinnov should be able to sum and calibrate the two together, correct? Any other sub positions you recommend I try? Seating will be about 13-14 feet from the screen wall. Thanks for your help.

Matt

My rears are currently in-ceiling and measure just fine when the tweeter is pointed towards the listening position. Also, if you read through the thread, you'll see numerous success stories involving dual subs.
post #516 of 544
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post

The Room plays a big part in the results
This is a great example of the benefits of DRC. One sets up a system with specs that lead us to conclude it should perform in a certain way, based on speaker specs, and then they don't match the expectation in real room performance. The room is changing the performance of your speakers and the DRC is correcting for that. In your case, you may have a dip in response due to room mode or boundary that is causing the actual SPL to drop in the L/R compared to the Center below 100Hz. In turn, your sub may be doing well in this region.

What you can do to understand more of what is going on.

Turn off Trinnov, then use the Dolby test signal in the 972 to listen to the difference between LCR- from the mic position. You may hear what the Trinnov is measuring. Listen to the sub too. If you want to go a step further in understanding, you could get a measurement tool of some kind to measure the speakers. Be advised, most measurement tools only measure the "power response," which tend to hide the speaker's earliest reflections in the room, which are an important gauge of transient response or tightness. This is the kind of work that goes on when full Trinnov systems are used. We are able to have measurements that help us to evaluate the speaker - room interaction and thereby maximize the results- via DRC and or modifications to the speakers and room. Lots of knowledge and experience goes into the critical evaluation of speaker room interactions, so typically folks with our systems ask for a professional interpretation of what's going on.



I've attached an example from a room I've been tuning that has an issue similar to yours. You'll be able to see that there is measured output in all the speakers well below 50Hz, yet the room interaction is causing nulls at 97 and 135Hz. We can't really fill in these with power, so the alternative is to move speakers or work around them- perhaps by shifting the bass management crossover.

What is remarkable in the R972 is that we are able to have full Trinnov processing available at the time (we've always improving the algorithms). What is left out is the ability to program the system for each speaker's physical capabilities, run multiple measurements, read the results, and fine tune if required.

Cheers,

Curt,

On those Trinnov screen shot's,what's the difference between phase and group delay. I've been told that the technical term for "Phase EQ" is actually "Group Delay EQ".How do you define the difference?

Thanks
post #517 of 544
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

Curt,

On those Trinnov screen shot's,what's the difference between phase and group delay. I've been told that the technical term for "Phase EQ" is actually "Group Delay EQ".How do you define the difference?

Thanks

Wiki defines this well: " The group delay is a measure of the slope of the phase response at any given frequency."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_delay_and_phase_delay Worth exploring if one wants a better understanding of the role time plays.

Same measurement information, given in different ways. Of the two, phase is easier to relate to to see speaker/ room behaviors. Group Delay is often used as a benchmark for defining when we'll hear changes (relative to frequency) in the time domain. As for EQ, in the Trinnov units, one can define a target Phase or Group Delay EQ. Whichever you choose, one sees the corresponding change in the other, as well as the amplitude response.


Cheers,
post #518 of 544
Thanks Curt,
Can Trinnov independently compensate time alignment between drivers in a single loudspeaker with it's filters?
post #519 of 544
I posted this in the other R-972 thread also.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bguzman View Post

Hello,
My R-972 is arriving Tuesday. I have read the threads, user notes, and manual. I am posting now to clarify a setup question. Currently I am running an Onkyo 707 with all 11 speaker positions used. I then select seven for playback, PL IIz, PL IIx, or DSX wide/heights. My plan is to connect the Surround Back/Multi to a speaker selector that is connected to the SB, FH, and FW speakers. Then run Trinnov and save each setup to one of the three Positions. I am getting my self prepared for the numerous trials and resets but I think the end results will be pretty awesome. Any thoughts?
post #520 of 544
That sounds like a good way to get Trinnov optimized for various speaker arrangements.

One problem you might run into,if your using position 1,2,3 for the same LP, for each saved calibration, you may need to re-aim the mic till you get a good 0 degree(usually within +/- 2 degrees is considered acceptable) center channel position to get similar angle results.You might need to re-adjust for each saved position.I found the even if you left the mic at exactly the same position and never moved it that it would end up with slightly different angle results for each of the 3 saved positions.

There seems to be some kind of variance in the calculated angle results for each position.I don't know why.
post #521 of 544
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

That sounds like a good way to get Trinnov optimized for various speaker arrangements.

One problem you might run into,if your using position 1,2,3 for the same LP, for each saved calibration, you may need to re-aim the mic till you get a good 0 degree(usually within +/- 2 degrees is considered acceptable) center channel position to get similar angle results.You might need to re-adjust for each saved position.I found the even if you left the mic at exactly the same position and never moved it that it would end up with slightly different angle results for each of the 3 saved positions.

There seems to be some kind of variance in the calculated angle results for each position.I don't know why.

Thanks SL, I'm really enjoying this receiver. The sound is great in my HT. I was able to calibrate my three positions without to much difficulty. The menu structure is odd to say the least but I am starting to figure it out. I love what Trinnov does with movie sound tracks. biggrin.gif
post #522 of 544
I have an existing 6.1 channel setup and just bought the R-972. Working with Sherwood regarding video scaling issues.
Meanwhile, since Trinnov can do spatial remapping, I wonder how it would handle the addition of an additional speaker in a 1 Front Center Height position.
post #523 of 544
Exfer:

Trinnov will use the single center height speaker to help build the front/center image. You may not be able to detect that it is on or it may add to your enjoyment. My recommendation: give it a try.

Jeff
post #524 of 544
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exfer View Post

I have an existing 6.1 channel setup and just bought the R-972. Working with Sherwood regarding video scaling issues.
Meanwhile, since Trinnov can do spatial remapping, I wonder how it would handle the addition of an additional speaker in a 1 Front Center Height position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereojeff View Post

Exfer:

Trinnov will use the single center height speaker to help build the front/center image. You may not be able to detect that it is on or it may add to your enjoyment. My recommendation: give it a try.

Jeff

I'm using a speaker selector to route the Surround Back/Multi sound to my two FH speakers on Position 2. For me the most sound is produced when I use the 2D remapping setting. The sound appears to be coming from the whole front wall. When I had a traditional receiver with PLIIZ I used it primarily for TV/sports. Trinnov does a much better job as far as I can tell so far. I also beleive the settings will be equipment and room specific. +1 on the give it a try.
post #525 of 544
Thanks for your response, SJeff and bguzman.
I have no option but to wait before I can try anything. My unit needs to be shipped to Sherwood frown.gif
Am posting some details in the owner's thread.
post #526 of 544
Hey Curt,

I was hoping you've heard of this problem before. I recently purchased a new tv and speaker stands, so of course I needed to rerun Trinnov. Unfortunately, it's been nothing but a nightmare. The problem is my center channel. No voices are coming out of it. Occasionally it will play some ambient noises, but all dialog comes out of the L/R's. When I turn off remapping, it only comes out the right speaker. I've checked the speakers connections thrice, and even sat in the room during a setup just to be sure my center was playing during the center test (it is). What's the issue? Thanks.

Edit: Just to cover my bases, I have done a Standby/Enter reset twice.

Update 2:
I can confirm this phenomenon. When I finish the calibration and directly switch to 5.1 content, the center comes into play. If I set the trinnov position to 1, and go back to 5.1 content, I still have a center and the volume adjusts. If I switch to flat I LOSE the center, and if I return it to none, the center is STILL missing....
Edited by Stump909 - 4/28/13 at 8:32am
post #527 of 544
Well after two months of audio bliss the honeymoon is over. My R-972 will only pass audio with the External In inputs. I have done multiple tests with different sources and cables both HDMI and Toslink to no avail. It seems that any input that is involved with Trinnov will not pass audio. It is now just an amplifier. mad.gif I have checked and rechecked the settings and performed many resets. I would be very grateful if somebody could come up with a "magic fix", that would be awesome.
post #528 of 544
Quote:
Originally Posted by bguzman View Post

Well after two months of audio bliss the honeymoon is over. My R-972 will only pass audio with the External In inputs. I have done multiple tests with different sources and cables both HDMI and Toslink to no avail. It seems that any input that is involved with Trinnov will not pass audio. It is now just an amplifier. mad.gif I have checked and rechecked the settings and performed many resets. I would be very grateful if somebody could come up with a "magic fix", that would be awesome.

Is the problem the same after doing a reset?
post #529 of 544
bguzman, how many speakers are you using? There is a glitch with 4.0 systems and the R972.
post #530 of 544
Quote:
Originally Posted by GXAlan View Post

bguzman, how many speakers are you using? There is a glitch with 4.0 systems and the R972.

Apparently 3.0 as well. I'm going to attempt to resolve my problem by carefully plugging the L/R into the SL/SR during test tones.
post #531 of 544
Quote:
Originally Posted by islandman2020 View Post

Is the problem the same after doing a reset?

Yes
Quote:
Originally Posted by GXAlan View Post

bguzman, how many speakers are you using? There is a glitch with 4.0 systems and the R972.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stump909 View Post

Apparently 3.0 as well. I'm going to attempt to resolve my problem by carefully plugging the L/R into the SL/SR during test tones.

7.1
post #532 of 544
Sounds like a bad unit, I'd call Sherwood. Even though it's discontinued, they've been really responsive w/tech support from what I gather.
post #533 of 544
So, in the Results after calibration, do I want the levels to be as close to 0 as possible?

And how would I influence the levels?
post #534 of 544
Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post

So, in the Results after calibration, do I want the levels to be as close to 0 as possible?

And how would I influence the levels?
It would be nice to have the level results as close to each other as possible, not necessarily 0. I believe the reasoning is explained in this thread or in the User Notes PDF.

That said, other than a powered subwoofer, where you can adjust the sub amp's gain, there is not much you can do with individual speakers.
post #535 of 544
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

It would be nice to have the level results as close to each other as possible, not necessarily 0. I believe the reasoning is explained in this thread or in the User Notes PDF.

I didn't check the thread but I did check the notes. My levels are all around -17, with one or two at -19. I was wondering if that meant that evyerthing would be quieter and/or the amp would be working harder. I'm using a separate amp.
post #536 of 544
artur9

The Trinnov module actually measures levels to the tenth (.1) of a dB but only reports them to the nearest integer. As Trinnov measures at a fixed output level, the only way to change the reported levels would be to have the microphone module closer to the speakers or to have an amplifier with higher gain. Your results are typical and are fine.

Jeff
post #537 of 544
Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post

I didn't check the thread but I did check the notes. My levels are all around -17, with one or two at -19. I was wondering if that meant that evyerthing would be quieter and/or the amp would be working harder. I'm using a separate amp.
That's pretty close...I wouldn't worry about it.

I see Jeff posted.....see, nothing to worry about. smile.gif
post #538 of 544
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post

I didn't check the thread but I did check the notes. My levels are all around -17, with one or two at -19. I was wondering if that meant that evyerthing would be quieter and/or the amp would be working harder. I'm using a separate amp.

Levels are relative: you have great results with only a 2dB spread. It is not necessary to be in a specific SPL range, only to do your best to have relative levels as close as possible. One wants to avoid having a big difference that usually comes from mis-matched speaker inefficiencies or a sub level that hasn't been matched to the speakers. Some level differences can't be avoided, such as having speakers situated from the listener at widely varying distances, like some at 5ft and some at 20 ft. Then, you just have to live with what you've got.

In the case of using an external amp (better amps do have their advantages, I've used both Bryston and ATI with good success here on my r972), adjust gains if you have them. A good target would be to be able to get reference SPL of 80dB-C when Sherwood is set to 0 dB level with a pink noise source running at -20dBFS. This would match headroom and make it easy to remember where you are relative to reference level playback. Can do the same thing for any cal'd system by just taking note of R972 level setting for same when getting 80dBC. (NB: small rooms play louder then theaters or large rooms. If you are into getting accurate "theater level," suggest you read up on this, as playback in a home needn't be at 80dB to acheive accurate relative loudness.


3 and 4 speaker layouts are known to work only with a go around: The R972 microcontroller only looks for 2-5-6-7 speaker combinations. It ignores Trinnov reporting 3 or 4 speaker combinations and defaults to 2 channel. See User notes or thread, as very acceptable ways around this have been discussed many times. All are based on calibrating at least 5 speakers, even if only 3 or 4 will be used.

Cheers-
post #539 of 544
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post



3 and 4 speaker layouts are known to work only with a go around: The R972 microcontroller only looks for 2-5-6-7 speaker combinations. It ignores Trinnov reporting 3 or 4 speaker combinations and defaults to 2 channel. See User notes or thread, as very acceptable ways around this have been discussed many times. All are based on calibrating at least 5 speakers, even if only 3 or 4 will be used.

Cheers-

This is my current problem at the moment. I recently moved and left my in-ceiling surrounds. Due to the smaller space, I felt 3 speakers would be sufficient. Would I lose the rear data if I calibrate 5 speakers and only use 3?
post #540 of 544
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stump909 View Post

This is my current problem at the moment. I recently moved and left my in-ceiling surrounds. Due to the smaller space, I felt 3 speakers would be sufficient. Would I lose the rear data if I calibrate 5 speakers and only use 3?

Assuming all three speakers are in front, then of course you would loose the rear info, but you would in any case, with or without Trinnov engaged. I suggest you read the User Notes as it related to Quad.
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