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Yessongs on Blu-ray with New DTS HD MA 5.1 Remix - Page 3

post #61 of 93
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by drignoll View Post

I'm disappointed, but not surprised. Are you familiar with the sound quality (and I use that term loosely) of the original film and album? If you weren't, and simply comparing it to a modern release, it would indeed be horrible. My real question is whether the BD is a substantial improvement to the admittedly terrible SQ of the original film.

While I've listened to the album many times, I don't have the DVD for comparison. I bought this not expecting it would be equal to an excellent transfer, such as the Talking Heads Stop Making Sense BD, or even decent ones like the Yes Live at Montreux or Symphonic Live BDs, but this is far worse than I was prepared for. Maybe the "new 5.1 DTS-HD MA remix" had me hoping for better. PQ is also subpar, but I could live with that if the SQ was better.
post #62 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by scolumbo View Post

While I've listened to the album many times, I don't have the DVD for comparison. I bought this not expecting it would be equal to an excellent transfer, such as the Talking Heads Stop Making Sense BD, or even decent ones like the Yes Live at Montreux or Symphonic Live BDs, but this is far worse than I was prepared for. Maybe the "new 5.1 DTS-HD MA remix" had me hoping for better. PQ is also subpar, but I could live with that if the SQ was better.

Thanks for the review. I feared it wouldn't be a good sounding release, but I'm wondering how bad it is. Two reviews on alt.music.yes both say it's a significant upgrade, but that's not saying much seeing as how it was always so bad-sounding to begin with. I understand it's a poor sounding br release, but is it at least decent sounding? Previously, it sounded very hollow with no high end. On a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being the best BR release, e.g. Stop Making Sense, and 1 being totally unlistenable, what would you give it?

I am a hardcore Yeshead and have this in all its previous incarnations. I love the performances, but can't bear to watch this, it sounds that bad. I just would like to know if the sound is decent enough to be able to enjoy watching it.
post #63 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by scolumbo View Post

While I've listened to the album many times, I don't have the DVD for comparison. I bought this not expecting it would be equal to an excellent transfer, such as the Talking Heads Stop Making Sense BD, or even decent ones like the Yes Live at Montreux or Symphonic Live BDs, but this is far worse than I was prepared for. Maybe the "new 5.1 DTS-HD MA remix" had me hoping for better. PQ is also subpar, but I could live with that if the SQ was better.

So is it in fact mono, or some kind of derived pseudo surround? Wish mine was not already in transit after seeing this review
post #64 of 93
Thread Starter 
I gave this a good listen from beginning to end, and my conclusions haven't changed, this is a muddy mess. There is virtually nothing discrete about the 5.1 mix. I walked around to all 5 speakers and had a hard time distinguishing anything different between the channels for most of the recording. Vocals are perhaps more prominent in the center channel, but they bleed to all 5 channels, as do all of the instruments. On a couple of tracks, I could maybe hear Jon's vocals more prominent in the center and fronts and Chris's in the surrounds, but it's very difficult to distinguish since everything is distorted and sounds tinny. For the surround mix, it gets an F. In fact, I switched to the mono track at several points, and I probably preferred it to the pseudo surround sound mix.

There were a couple of moments when I thought the sound wasn't half-bad. Howe's guitar during the Clap, and parts of Wakeman's solo during Close to the Edge were not great, but at least distinguishable. It's when the entire band is playing that you really know how bad this is. There is also virtually no low-end, or much of a high-end. Percussion has no punch. The overall sound is hollow and highly distorted.

For extras, there is an hour-long documentary that I haven't watched yet, and there are a couple of versions of Beginnings that I liked. Although not outstanding, the SQ was slightly better. One short version has Howe playing 5 instruments simultaneously, and an extended version with Howe playing along with Patrick Moraz on the harpsichord that was interesting. Oh, and you get 4 really nice Roger Dean artwork cards!

If I were to rank this on a scale of 1 to 10, and comparing this to a few other concert BDs, as a reference, I would place PT's Anesthetize and TH Stop Making Sense up there at least a 9. Gilmour's Remember That Night slightly lower, maybe an 8, along with Symphonic Live. I have a couple of Yes concerts on DVD, Keys to Ascension and House of Blues that are Dolby Digital that I would rate about a 6. I would be hard-pressed to give the Yessongs BD more than a 2, maybe a 3 if I was being generous.

For historical significance, and since I didn't have the DVD, I guess owning this BD is not a total waste of money, but I can't foresee taking this out of the media cabinet again anytime soon other than to watch the documentary.

If you already own the DVD, I can't see how this could be much of an improvement, and certainly not worth the cost to upgrade unless you just want to own this on Blu-Ray format, or you want the extras and a few nice artwork cards.

edit: I forgot to add one other item. The disc wouldn't load on my Oppo 93, after spinning for about 15 seconds, it gave me an error message. It did play from my PS3. I don't think using the PS3 versus the Oppo had any significant effect on the SQ of the DTS-HD MA audio since in both cases, the audio is sent digitally via HDMI to my Denon 3808ci. Just thought I should warn anyone thinking of buying this that owns an Oppo that a firmware update may be required to play.
post #65 of 93
Too bad it sounds like the recording is bad. I agree about the Live in Philly one, awful sound and video. I only bought it because I'm fairly sure I was at that concert sitting in one of the first few rows.
Many great Yes memories. Went to "camp" out for tickets in 1974 a week ahead of time, was 4th in line. We had a tent set up on the sidewalk in front of the Philadelphia Spectrum. My parents thought I was on a camping trip, just told my Mom the truth a few years ago. Left a few hours later after my friend got busted. Never got tickets for that show, but they sold out so fast they did another one that I was able to get into, my first concert ever.
post #66 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by scolumbo View Post

I gave this a good listen from beginning to end, and my conclusions haven't changed, this is a muddy mess. There is virtually nothing discrete about the 5.1 mix. I walked around to all 5 speakers and had a hard time distinguishing anything different between the channels for most of the recording. Vocals are perhaps more prominent in the center channel, but they bleed to all 5 channels, as do all of the instruments. On a couple of tracks, I could maybe hear Jon's vocals more prominent in the center and fronts and Chris's in the surrounds, but it's very difficult to distinguish since everything is distorted and sounds tinny. For the surround mix, it gets an F. In fact, I switched to the mono track at several points, and I probably preferred it to the pseudo surround sound mix.

There were a couple of moments when I thought the sound wasn't half-bad. Howe's guitar during the Clap, and parts of Wakeman's solo during Close to the Edge were not great, but at least distinguishable. It's when the entire band is playing that you really know how bad this is. There is also virtually no low-end, or much of a high-end. Percussion has no punch. The overall sound is hollow and highly distorted.

For extras, there is an hour-long documentary that I haven't watched yet, and there are a couple of versions of Beginnings that I liked. Although not outstanding, the SQ was slightly better. One short version has Howe playing 5 instruments simultaneously, and an extended version with Howe playing along with Patrick Moraz on the harpsichord that was interesting. Oh, and you get 4 really nice Roger Dean artwork cards!

If I were to rank this on a scale of 1 to 10, and comparing this to a few other concert BDs, as a reference, I would place PT's Anesthetize and TH Stop Making Sense up there at least a 9. Gilmour's Remember That Night slightly lower, maybe an 8, along with Symphonic Live. I have a couple of Yes concerts on DVD, Keys to Ascension and House of Blues that are Dolby Digital that I would rate about a 6. I would be hard-pressed to give the Yessongs BD more than a 2, maybe a 3 if I was being generous.

For historical significance, and since I didn't have the DVD, I guess owning this BD is not a total waste of money, but I can't foresee taking this out of the media cabinet again anytime soon other than to watch the documentary.

If you already own the DVD, I can't see how this could be much of an improvement, and certainly not worth the cost to upgrade unless you just want to own this on Blu-Ray format, or you want the extras and a few nice artwork cards.

edit: I forgot to add one other item. The disc wouldn't load on my Oppo 93, after spinning for about 15 seconds, it gave me an error message. It did play from my PS3. I don't think using the PS3 versus the Oppo had any significant effect on the SQ of the DTS-HD MA audio since in both cases, the audio is sent digitally via HDMI to my Denon 3808ci. Just thought I should warn anyone thinking of buying this that owns an Oppo that a firmware update may be required to play.

Thanks for the in-depth review. It is as I feared, another "remastered" bunch of sh!t. It's such a shame that these classic performances are unable to be enjoyed. Clap always sounded decent enough to watch- it is great seeing SH's hands at work on this. But otherwise, such a disappointment. A rather shameful release, imho; the current band just keeps finding ways to fleece its fans. Hate to see such an amazing band tarnishing its legacy as they have been doing.
post #67 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by saeyedoc View Post

Too bad it sounds like the recording is bad. I agree about the Live in Philly one, awful sound and video. I only bought it because I'm fairly sure I was at that concert sitting in one of the first few rows.
Many great Yes memories. Went to "camp" out for tickets in 1974 a week ahead of time, was 4th in line. We had a tent set up on the sidewalk in front of the Philadelphia Spectrum. My parents thought I was on a camping trip, just told my Mom the truth a few years ago. Left a few hours later after my friend got busted. Never got tickets for that show, but they sold out so fast they did another one that I was able to get into, my first concert ever.

Another Philly Yes fan! I had quite a few transcendental Yes experiences at the Spectrum. First Yesshow was in 77. So, you got to see the Tales show? What did you think of that? Pretty amazing in retrospect, but musta been rather difficult to digest all that new music- I believe the album still wasn't out before this show- correct? Was Wakeman just phoning it in? It's common knowledge that he hated the album and was very unenthusiastic on at least part of this tour. Still- pretty amazing 1st concert!

BTW, I was at that show from Live in Philly, nowhere near 10th row though. Why is it that early Yes was unable to be captured well on video? Yessongs sucks, Live in Philly sucks, QPR looks pretty good, but soundboard tech ruined much of that show- though some of it is good. Wish Yes could get a quality release like Zep's, but it doesn't appear to be in the stars...
post #68 of 93
Why would a live show have discrete 5.1 channels wrt voice and instrument placement? When you attend a live show that's not what you hear (nor is it how the mix is setup on the board).

larry
post #69 of 93
Hmmm... Larry makes an interesting point there. Nevertheless, thanks scolumbo for taking the bullet for us. I'll be passing on this BD release. And I don't want to ruin my perfect record of all BD's playing first time everytime on my Oppo 93.
post #70 of 93
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PooperScooper View Post

Why would a live show have discrete 5.1 channels wrt voice and instrument placement? When you attend a live show that's not what you hear (nor is it how the mix is setup on the board).

larry

Obviously, it's not originally in surround unless it's a show like the The Wall that is presented in Quad, for instance. Have you heard PT's Anesthetize which was mixed by SW in 5.1? This is an exquisite and discrete surround mix. However, it's not what you would hear if you were in the audience. Too many concert videos are nothing more than some audience ambiance in the surrounds. Or, in the case of Yessongs, basically a mono mix that is repeated in all 5 channels. Some of AIX's 5.1 releases have both an "audience" mix and a "stage" mix. As a surround fan, I almost always prefer the immersive sound of the "stage" mix.
post #71 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by PooperScooper View Post

Why would a live show have discrete 5.1 channels wrt voice and instrument placement? When you attend a live show that's not what you hear (nor is it how the mix is setup on the board).

larry

In what other way does watching a concert video resemble being at a live show? They are fundamentally different experiences. Having better (or at least clearer) sound, without some goober in the row behind you yelling in your ear all night, is one of the few ways the disc has a potential advantage to help make up for all the ways that a recording can't even begin to reproduce the impact of actually being at the show.
post #72 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWinVA View Post

Another Philly Yes fan! I had quite a few transcendental Yes experiences at the Spectrum. First Yesshow was in 77. So, you got to see the Tales show? What did you think of that? Pretty amazing in retrospect, but musta been rather difficult to digest all that new music- I believe the album still wasn't out before this show- correct? Was Wakeman just phoning it in? It's common knowledge that he hated the album and was very unenthusiastic on at least part of this tour. Still- pretty amazing 1st concert!

BTW, I was at that show from Live in Philly, nowhere near 10th row though. Why is it that early Yes was unable to be captured well on video? Yessongs sucks, Live in Philly sucks, QPR looks pretty good, but soundboard tech ruined much of that show- though some of it is good. Wish Yes could get a quality release like Zep's, but it doesn't appear to be in the stars...

If I remember correctly Tales came out around my 13th birthday, it was a Bar Mitzvah present from a friend of mine (at my request). That would put it at 1974, I believe the concert was that same summer. Unfortunately I don't remember alot of details from that era, just how much fun we had!
Did you go to the big outdoor show in Philly, spirit of '76? We waited outside all night to get in.
Did see Wakeman during his solo tour. Also great shows by Jethro Tull, ELP, Pink Floyd (Animals tour). What a great time to be a teenager. I think concert tickets were still <$10.
post #73 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by saeyedoc View Post

If I remember correctly Tales came out around my 13th birthday, it was a Bar Mitzvah present from a friend of mine (at my request). That would put it at 1974, I believe the concert was that same summer. Unfortunately I don't remember alot of details from that era, just how much fun we had!
Did you go to the big outdoor show in Philly, spirit of '76? We waited outside all night to get in.
Did see Wakeman during his solo tour. Also great shows by Jethro Tull, ELP, Pink Floyd (Animals tour). What a great time to be a teenager. I think concert tickets were still <$10.

Don't remember all the details? Makes me think there was some "enhancements" ingested... I had tickets to the 76 show in JFK, unfortunately there was some drama and I couldn't make that show. Did see ELP and the Animals tour. IIRC, ELP was like a week after Yes; so, while it was enjoyable, it suffered from comparison. Had the same problem when I saw Little Feat- a week after seeing Yes Tormato tour. Didn't see Tull until Stormwatch, a few years later, but late 70's was a great time to be a teen, though I wouldn't have minded being a little older and catching Tales, the Lamb, Zep, etc.
post #74 of 93
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWinVA View Post

Don't remember all the details? Makes me think there was some "enhancements" ingested... I had tickets to the 76 show in JFK, unfortunately there was some drama and I couldn't make that show. Did see ELP and the Animals tour. IIRC, ELP was like a week after Yes; so, while it was enjoyable, it suffered from comparison. Had the same problem when I saw Little Feat- a week after seeing Yes Tormato tour. Didn't see Tull until Stormwatch, a few years later, but late 70's was a great time to be a teen, though I wouldn't have minded being a little older and catching Tales, the Lamb, Zep, etc.

Even as a teenager, I threw all my concert ticket stubs into a shoebox, and still do. Recently, I pulled them out and organized them by date in a photo album. It's amazing the number of concerts I have no recollection of as a teen in the 70's (David Bowie, Allman Brothers, Alice Cooper to name a few). But then, those were 'heady' days.

I do remember (vaguely) seeing Yes for the first time in '77 "In the Round" at Market Square Arena in Indy shortly after the release of Going For The One. My ticket stubs say I attended a Willie Nelson concert a month later.
post #75 of 93
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by saeyedoc View Post

I think concert tickets were still <$10.

Yep, I have some ticket stubs from 74-75 that were $3 and festival seating, so it was a mad rush when the doors opened to get the best seat. Then the Who concert stampede in Cincinnati happened, and no more festival seating. It was also an era when smoke in the air was very thick, and not from tobacco.
post #76 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by scolumbo View Post

Even as a teenager, I threw all my concert ticket stubs into a shoebox, and still do. Recently, I pulled them out and organized them by date in a photo album. It's amazing the number of concerts I have no recollection of as a teen in the 70's (David Bowie, Allman Brothers, Alice Cooper to name a few). But then, those were 'heady' days.

I do remember (vaguely) seeing Yes for the first time in '77 "In the Round" at Market Square Arena in Indy shortly after the release of Going For The One. My ticket stubs say I attended a Willie Nelson concert a month later.

:heady" lol

Speaking of which, the 77 gfto tour wasn't in the round, that was the next tour for tormato. Unless MSG was different from the Spectrum in Philly.
post #77 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by scolumbo View Post

Yep, I have some ticket stubs from 74-75 that were $3 and festival seating, so it was a mad rush when the doors opened to get the best seat. Then the Who concert stampede in Cincinnati happened, and no more festival seating. It was also an era when smoke in the air was very thick, and not from tobacco.

Yes- totally different days. Once they banned smoking- tobacco that is- from indoors, it really killed the atmosphere at concerts. Quickly became near-impossible to light anything. Everything was so laid back in the '70's. Now there are often power-tripping nazis who work security at concerts.
post #78 of 93
Wow! Some great remenising here about the great times that were the 70's music scene. I was born and raised in South Jersey and saw quite a few concerts at the Spectrum. Jethro Tull in 74 when he was touring in support of the "Warchild" album, Greatful Dead in 78, and I still have my stub from the 77 Led Zep show that never was. That was the year that Robert Plant lost his son to a stomach virus and they cancelled their North American tour. I was very disappointed because at that time I was completely absorbed in anything they put out in the record stores. I remember the Yes show at JFK but I wasn't able to go with my friends to see it because I couldn't afford the ticket. Looking back, there were many great concerts in the Philly area that I missed, and still kick myself about when I think about it.

Who knows what I'm talking about here:
Mexican
Mexican tops
Jamaican
Columbian
Columbian Gold

Variety WAS the spice of life back then ya know?
post #79 of 93
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWinVA View Post

:heady" lol

Speaking of which, the 77 gfto tour wasn't in the round, that was the next tour for tormato. Unless MSG was different from the Spectrum in Philly.

Hmmm...I did also attend the Tormato concert in Chicago in 79, I believe it was. Could I be mis-remembering my Yes concerts for all these years? How could that possibly be almost 35 years ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rich3fan View Post

Who knows what I'm talking about here:
Mexican
Mexican tops
Jamaican
Columbian
Columbian Gold

Variety WAS the spice of life back then ya know?

Lol, maybe this is the reason. Now that does bring back memories!
post #80 of 93
I remember seeing them in 1972 or 1973? Close to the Edge tour. Opening for them was The Eagles! Jackson Browne was still with them if memory serves.
post #81 of 93
Yes, times sure have changed haven't they? I used to go to high school wearing t-shirts with some of the above on them.
One of my daughters went to Marley Fest in Austin on 4/20, sounds like it was more like the old days. She said they were searching backpacks, but only for weapons, she saw people getting in with garbage bags full of 'shrooms and other goodies.
Now that our kids are old enough, we'll be taking them to Negril,Jamaica with us this Christmas. For old Yes fans, it's a great place to hang out.
post #82 of 93
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andwhatnot View Post

I remember seeing them in 1972 or 1973? Close to the Edge tour. Opening for them was The Eagles! Jackson Browne was still with them if memory serves.

Wow, now that was a tour. My favorite Yes album, and The Eagles as an opening act.

When I was a teen, I always wished I was 5 years older so I could have seen Hendrix, The Doors, The Beatles, etc. in their prime. Of course, now I wish I was 5 years younger.
post #83 of 93
I wish I could have 35 years of my life back.
post #84 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by scolumbo View Post

Wow, now that was a tour. My favorite Yes album, and The Eagles as an opening act.

When I was a teen, I always wished I was 5 years older so I could have seen Hendrix, The Doors, The Beatles, etc. in their prime. Of course, now I wish I was 5 years younger.

I was at that show in Philly. The tickets listed Jo Jo Gunn as the opening act for Yes but when the show started the announcer said they had a new group from California to open the show. THE EAGLES...Nobody knew them as Witchy Woman was just released as a single. They were awesome!! If i remember correctly (most likely not) it was the Fragile tour. They opened with CTTE but nobody had heard it yet. 20 minutes later we looked at each other and said WTF just happened???
post #85 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by andwhatnot View Post

I remember seeing them in 1972 or 1973? Close to the Edge tour. Opening for them was The Eagles! Jackson Browne was still with them if memory serves.

I saw that tour, but they were solo act IIRC. Previous to that I saw Yes open for ELP on their Tarkus tour and then the next 2 or 3 stops in Philly. I kinda lost track of Yes after Relayer except for the songs that were played over and over and over on the radio.

larry
post #86 of 93
It's maybe just bad luck but so far all the reviews I've seen online of this new version have been by people who never owned Yessongs (the video) before, and typically haven't ever seen it before. Which makes it hard for me to figure out if this one is *any better* than previous releases..which is what I'm actually interested in.

I saw Yessongs in the theater back when it was first released in the state.Over the years have owned it on VHS and then DVD (I skipped the Laserdisc). The video and sound were dodgy in the theater, and at home too. I don't expect it ever to be showcase quality or even close. But there were definitely things they could have done to upgrade the release, the simplest being, to use the Yessongs LP audio for 'Close to the Edge' and 'wurm' , since those are the exact same performances and the LP audio is better (and in stereo).
post #87 of 93
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

It's maybe just bad luck but so far all the reviews I've seen online of this new version have been by people who never owned Yessongs (the video) before, and typically haven't ever seen it before. Which makes it hard for me to figure out if this one is *any better* than previous releases..which is what I'm actually interested in.

I saw Yessongs in the theater back when it was first released in the state.Over the years have owned it on VHS and then DVD (I skipped the Laserdisc). The video and sound were dodgy in the theater, and at home too. I don't expect it ever to be showcase quality or even close. But there were definitely things they could have done to upgrade the release, the simplest being, to use the Yessongs LP audio for 'Close to the Edge' and 'wurm' , since those are the exact same performances and the LP audio is better (and in stereo).

I've listened to the Yessongs CD too many times to count, the 94 re-issue and the 01 Japanese HDCD version, and there is no way the BD audio for Close to the Edge or Wurm comes close to matching the 2 CD versions I own. For some reason, I don't own the Yessongs LP, which is the only Yes LP I don't own through Drama, although I've heard it many times in the somewhat distant past. The BD audio is also offered only in mono and the fake 5.1 surround.

I've read that the VHS and DVD copies have visible scratches and dirt. I can believe that the video may have been cleaned up some, although it's hardly Blu-ray quality, maybe higher-quality VHS/lower-quality DVD. The audio, however, is so much worse than the CD.
post #88 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by scolumbo View Post

I've listened to the Yessongs CD too many times to count, the 94 re-issue and the 01 Japanese HDCD version.

Me too, but I'm talking about the movie.

Have you seen it in any previous versions, and can comment on the new one in comparison?

Quote:


and there is no way the BD audio for Close to the Edge or Wurm comes close to matching the 2 CD versions I own.

I don't think anyone ever claimed it did. I surely didn't. This is why I suggested swapping in the LP (or CD, I used 'LP' as shorthand for 'the audio version of Yessongs') audio where possible -- i.e., for the two tracks I mentioned, where the performance is the same on the record and the movie.

Quote:


I've read that the VHS and DVD copies have visible scratches and dirt. I can believe that the video may have been cleaned up some, although it's hardly Blu-ray quality, maybe higher-quality VHS/lower-quality DVD. The audio, however, is so much worse than the CD.

The question is, are the audio and video on the new version of the *movie* any better than previous edition of the *movie*. Maybe someone who has the new edition, and an older one to compare it to, can chime in?
post #89 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

Me too, but I'm talking about the movie.

Have you seen it in any previous versions, and can comment on the new one in comparison?



I don't think anyone ever claimed it did. I surely didn't. This is why I suggested swapping in the LP (or CD, I used 'LP' as shorthand for 'the audio version of Yessongs') audio where possible -- i.e., for the two tracks I mentioned, where the performance is the same on the record and the movie.



The question is, are the audio and video on the new version of the *movie* any better than previous edition of the *movie*. Maybe someone who has the new edition, and an older one to compare it to, can chime in?

Right, my question exactly. Using prior versions of the film as the reference point, is this any better (and if so, how much better).

On a semi-related topic, Jon Anderson just announced new solo tour dates on his website. I've already got my tickets.
post #90 of 93
I have not seen the new version. I will buy the BD though because the vhs copy I have is not too convenient to use right now.
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