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Pioneer vs onkyo - Page 2

post #31 of 55
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnson636 View Post


No, no, no, my post is just a poke at the audyssey enthusiast who believe audyssey is the be all end all and it's best for ever HT. I'm using an 1121 and I'm loving it. I agree with you that pioneer sounds great with mcacc. Enjoy your Pio man..... I am

Oops sorry about that I thought that you were really angry with what I said, funny to hear what audessey is doing to my system, but even funnier to hear what our supplier told me, I mean XT32 and wrong 3 times in a row? And they dare to call it calibration? Cheers mate so you happy with your Pio?
post #32 of 55
I said it before and I will say it again I wish some publication could take all the different room corrections and run them in the same room same speakers same group of listeners and without telling them( BLIND TEST) vote on what they like.
Kinda like a sub shootout except with RC.
post #33 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by joebuzz View Post


Oops sorry about that I thought that you were really angry with what I said, funny to hear what audessey is doing to my system, but even funnier to hear what our supplier told me, I mean XT32 and wrong 3 times in a row? And they dare to call it calibration? Cheers mate so you happy with your Pio?

Ah man I love the 1121! I had fun with my wife using the iPhone app turning the volume up and down from another room; she was freaking out. I bet that SC57 is a beauty. How does the bass sound to you? I love the warm feel I get from my subs.
post #34 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by oztech View Post

I said it before and I will say it again I wish some publication could take all the different room corrections and run them in the same room same speakers same group of listeners and without telling them( BLIND TEST) vote on what they like.
Kinda like a sub shootout except with RC.


Google Dr.Sean Olive VP. R&D @ Harman International

They have run/published some very interesting competitive tests for Room EQ schemes..
The major weakness of some of these is that they do little for frequencies <250Hz which is the area needing the most help especially for correcting certain room nodes/resonances..


Just my $0.02..
post #35 of 55
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnson636 View Post


Ah man I love the 1121! I had fun with my wife using the iPhone app turning the volume up and down from another room; she was freaking out. I bet that SC57 is a beauty. How does the bass sound to you? I love the warm feel I get from my subs.

Happy to hear that you like what you are have, after all that is the most important thing. As for the 57, the bass is the best part for me. Bass with the Onkyo is out of control so much that even my wife was complaining that our apartment was shaking like crazy. I just cannot swallow the fact that the Pio receiver is sounding better than the Onkyo with 5 mono blocks, I mean they do cost more than double the Pio's price.
Anyway speed of this amp is great and my twin Jamo D650 subs seem to have a new life added to them, bass is tight but very deep, I mean the way I really like it. The onkyo on the other hand is just an overload of bass without control, too much rumble and I hate that. Seems like the subs with the Onkyo are always over driven. Originally I was planning to get the Susano, but since my room can accommodate a maximum if 7.2 I decided that a 10 channel amp would be too much money for something that I am not using. Enjoy your Pio man, me going for some more testing.
post #36 of 55
I wonder if Air Studio has something to do with the sound people seem to like with the 57.
post #37 of 55
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oztech View Post

I wonder if Air Studio has something to do with the sound people seem to like with the 57.

Not sure but the simplicity of the system works wonders and that is the most important factor after all. Audessey in comparison is complicated and the end result is not as good but I still find it hard to swallow the fact that my processor PR SC-5508 is supposed to be top notch and the Pioneer which is not the best amp that Pioneer has in its range ( they also have the Susano) is sounding better. Cannot figure this out!
post #38 of 55
Finally a thread that isn't soaked in the Audessey is the best hype. Unfortunatly some people are easily sucked in what people on forums say, and the i don't like Pioneer anymore talk in the SC55-57 section draws people away from a great amp. People where all over the ICE 'name' of the previous amps where as the new ones are improved but don't have as fancy a name and the improvements are walked over. Its refreshing to see people who see that Pioneer is still on top of the game.
post #39 of 55
^^^

"some" may be...

not all of us are "some" though...

no, pioneer hasn't been on the top of their game for awhile... as a LONG time owner of pioneer products (including their true flagship products, not to be confused with what is called a flagship today), there are good reasons why many of us have moved on...

be aware that many of us don't fall for "hype"... also be aware that many of us carried the flag for pio for quite some time, as for that "quite some time" they really were on the cutting edge....

from the tests i've seen, the ice amps and the d3 are esentially the same in real world conditions... that change (regardless of the marketing materials) was an economic decision, pure and simple... any "improvement" is in the mind of the user, as i would bet my entire setup that you couldn't differentiate a 37 from a 57 in a controlled test...

anything else?
post #40 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joost80 View Post

Finally a thread that isn't soaked in the Audessey is the best hype.

One of very few........don't blink because it will be gone


Although he prefers audyssey, I will say ccotenj is one whose opinion is more objective than most. Well respected around these parts.
post #41 of 55
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^

"some" may be...

not all of us are "some" though...

no, pioneer hasn't been on the top of their game for awhile... as a LONG time owner of pioneer products (including their true flagship products, not to be confused with what is called a flagship today), there are good reasons why many of us have moved on...

be aware that many of us don't fall for "hype"... also be aware that many of us carried the flag for pio for quite some time, as for that "quite some time" they really were on the cutting edge....

from the tests i've seen, the ice amps and the d3 are esentially the same in real world conditions... that change (regardless of the marketing materials) was an economic decision, pure and simple... any "improvement" is in the mind of the user, as i would bet my entire setup that you couldn't differentiate a 37 from a 57 in a controlled test...

anything else?

I never ever in my life owned Pioneer, but to my surprise they know how to make a good amp. I had numerous brands like NAD, Marantz, Musical Fidelity and now Onkyo. This evening I hooked up the Onkyo / Marantz setup again, must admit that the Pio sounds much better to me. There is too much lost detail with the Onkyo setup, and I ran Audessey for many times. The overall sound is just bass loaded and the detail is not heard. The Pio is really detailed and the bass is tight and always under control. I must admit that I have to change my processor, and if a receiver is sounding better to me I must admit that for the first time since I heard pro logic I will make the switch to an integrated receiver. I always thought that a pre power is on the higher end of the game or maybe things have changed now?
post #42 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by joebuzz View Post

I never ever in my life owned Pioneer, but to my surprise they know how to make a good amp. I had numerous brands like NAD, Marantz, Musical Fidelity and now Onkyo. This evening I hooked up the Onkyo / Marantz setup again, must admit that the Pio sounds much better to me. There is too much lost detail with the Onkyo setup, and I ran Audessey for many times. The overall sound is just bass loaded and the detail is not heard. The Pio is really detailed and the bass is tight and always under control. I must admit that I have to change my processor, and if a receiver is sounding better to me I must admit that for the first time since I heard pro logic I will make the switch to an integrated receiver. I always thought that a pre power is on the higher end of the game or maybe things have changed now?

When using the Onkyo do you have Dynamic EQ and Dolby volume turned on or off?
With regards to your above. I would think that the processors in each brand have more influence on the sound than the amps. Connect the Pioneer to the Marantz amps and see if you notice a difference.
post #43 of 55
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post


When using the Onkyo do you have Dynamic EQ and Dolby volume turned on or off?
With regards to your above. I would think that the processors in each brand have more influence on the sound than the amps. Connect the Pioneer to the Marantz amps and see if you notice a difference.

Dynamic eq on but not dolby volume. Not yet i havent done that but will surely have time to try this out before i have to decide if to keep the Pio or return it back. But i think the Onkyo processor should be better at least that is what they say on paper i mean one is a stand alone processor and the Pio is a receiver. I am running some more tests because i think that i have something wrong in the calibration process of the Onkyo. Will keep you posted about this, i am reading on Audessey site the proper way to do calibration. Boqq!!
post #44 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by joebuzz View Post

Dynamic eq on but not dolby volume. Not yet i havent done that but will surely have time to try this out before i have to decide if to keep the Pio or return it back. But i think the Onkyo processor should be better at least that is what they say on paper i mean one is a stand alone processor and the Pio is a receiver. I am running some more tests because i think that i have something wrong in the calibration process of the Onkyo. Will keep you posted about this, i am reading on Audessey site the proper way to do calibration. Boqq!!

I am not implying which is better. However, the Onkyo can't sound as good or better if the settings are wrong. I would definitely disable Bolby EQ and Dolby volume then try before making judgement on best sound.

During my demo sessions I have noticed that the Pioneer is more detailed. OTH the Onkyo has a warmer sound. Just my opinion with no scientific testing. Also no room correction was being applied. Pure and simple processors in their natural state.
post #45 of 55
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

I am not implying which is better. However, the Onkyo can't sound as good or better if the settings are wrong. I would definitely disable Bolby EQ and Dolby volume then try before making judgement on best sound.

During my demo sessions I have noticed that the Pioneer is more detailed. OTH the Onkyo has a warmer sound. Just my opinion with no scientific testing. Also no room correction was being applied. Pure and simple processors in their natural state.

You are right, the Pio is more detailed and the Onkyo is warmer. I really like warmer sound when i am playing Hifi on my Quads esl 63's but i like detail, and a lot when watching movies. For movies warmer does not mean better to me. But let me explain what happened yesterday.
Now please anyone who reads this i would like to point out that i am not wasting anyone's time, i am really confused and want to share what happened to me. I am not a believer of Audyssey and all the other stuff that auto calibrates a surround system. I am just explaining what happened.
Yesterday the weather was really horrible, so no bike riding, and i spent the day reading about Audyssey and the (proper) way to setup the Onkyo with the XT32. I spent a whole day testing and, the sound now is better with the Onkyo, or i have to admit it that now it sounds great. Don't know if i was doing something wrong, the only thing i changed was that i moved the sofa 2 Ft. from the back wall as suggested by Audyssey and then i took the calibration also as suggested by Audyssey.
When i used to calibrate i always left the projector on, and even if i have the Optoma HD87 it still makes some noise. Now the system sounds as it should, movies like Transformers 2 sound really great, and the action scenes are really involving and get you really in the picture. I always felt that the Onkyo was a bit laid back when it comes to the airy sound but i think that after calibration the system sounds great. I think i am getting the Emotiva XPA-5 to work with my Onkyo, if i decide to keep the Onkyo.
I really do not know what to do. Now the Onkyo sounds great too, I can say that now it sounds better than the Pio. I think if i change the Marantz MA700 monoblocks to the XPA-5 i will see other improvements, or maybe it is all in the mind. Well really i hope not. Any suggestions apart from brain surgeons? Thanks.
post #46 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by joebuzz View Post

Don't know if i was doing something wrong, the only thing i changed was that i moved the sofa 2 Ft. from the back wall as suggested by Audyssey and then i took the calibration also as suggested by Audyssey.

uh... yea... without even hearing it, i can tell you that it sounds better now...

imo/ime, if you aren't clipping/putting the amplifier into protection, you aren't buying yourself anything by playing amp games...

and if you are, then either of the amps in question aren't going to help...
post #47 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

i would bet my entire setup that you couldn't differentiate a 37 from a 57 in a controlled test...

+1
post #48 of 55
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

uh... yea... without even hearing it, i can tell you that it sounds better now...

imo/ime, if you aren't clipping/putting the amplifier into protection, you aren't buying yourself anything by playing amp games...

and if you are, then either of the amps in question aren't going to help...

So you think that i will not see any improvement by changing the amps? I mean power wise the MA700 at 4ohms are the same as the XPA-5 at 4ohms. The only advantage is that i can use the XLR on the Onkyo and that i have only one box instead of 5, more convenient instead of better sounding you think? The Marantz do not have XLR but that is all there is to it. I tought that maybe because these are old amps maybe i would see an improvement if i get a more modern amp.
That is why maybe the Pio sounded better to my ear, maybe because it has the D3 amp or was it because of the processor it has?
post #49 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Go by your ears.

You prefer the Pioneer, stick with it. I would.

You can make yourself crazy trying to figure some of this stuff out.

Jimp is right, you're gonna drive yourself mad. Just go with the onkyo and call it a day. It was getting clear you were leaning towards the onkyo so its not a bad idea to stick with your first mind. Now enjoy some good listening

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joost80 View Post

Finally a thread that isn't soaked in the Audessey is the best hype.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnson636 View Post

One of very few........don't blink because it will be gone

I told you not to blink
post #50 of 55
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnson636 View Post


Jimp is right, you're gonna drive yourself mad. Just go with the onkyo and call it a day. It was getting clear you were leaning towards the onkyo so its not a bad idea to stick with your first mind. Now enjoy some good listening

I told you not to blink

I was asking for opinions and believe me I did not have the Onkyo in my mind, I just own the Onkyo that I bought last year and had the opportunity to try the Pio. But you are right I am driving myself mad by doing so!
post #51 of 55
Sounds like you have a nice setup, I wouldn't touch it right now. I have been guilty of the same myself and members of this forum gave the same advice I gave you.


Remember, If it ain't broke, then break it so you can buy more stuff
post #52 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by joebuzz View Post


I was asking for opinions and believe me I did not have the Onkyo in my mind, I just own the Onkyo that I bought last year and had the opportunity to try the Pio. But you are right I am driving myself mad by doing so!

I'm curious if you re-did the MCACC calibration after you made all the changes that improved the Audyssey settings? If so, did it improve the Pio as well?
post #53 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonCr View Post


I'm curious if you re-did the MCACC calibration after you made all the changes that improved the Audyssey settings? If so, did it improve the Pio as well?

I didn't think to ask that. Very good question.
post #54 of 55
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonCr View Post


I'm curious if you re-did the MCACC calibration after you made all the changes that improved the Audyssey settings? If so, did it improve the Pio as well?

The settings on the Pio MCACC were spot on, and I mentioned this when I started the thread. I simply was blown away with the sound of the Pio and their calibration. My Onkyo was never properly calibrated, and that is why when i hooked up the Pio i was blown away. I also said that the Pio is easier to adjust and calibrate. Audyssey on the other hand takes more time to setup, but if done right it is very good I admit. Only after reading about the proper way to calibrate XT32 I managed to get a better sound out of the Onkyo. Still I admit that the Pio is a great receiver no doubt about that.
post #55 of 55
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnson636 View Post

Sounds like you have a nice setup, I wouldn't touch it right now. I have been guilty of the same myself and members of this forum gave the same advice I gave you.

Remember, If it ain't broke, then break it so you can buy more stuff

Spot on!
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