AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Screens › DIY Screen Section › Upgraded PJ. Change from SILVER to AT spandex?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Upgraded PJ. Change from SILVER to AT spandex? - Page 2

post #31 of 57
I was using blackout cloth, from Joann's before and the image looks way better on the spandex. I watched half of Avatar the other day and the picture was absolutely stunning. Being able to have the speakers behind the screen also gives my room a more theater like feel. I would recommend the change.
post #32 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCHNEEDOO View Post

I was using blackout cloth, from Joann's before and the image looks way better on the spandex. I watched half of Avatar the other day and the picture was absolutely stunning. Being able to have the speakers behind the screen also gives my room a more theater like feel. I would recommend the change.

Do you have a link of where i should get it from and exactly what kind?
post #33 of 57
This is what I used and I think DevonS also used the same. http://spandexworld.com/c3/catalog/product/6409 Shipping was very quick.
post #34 of 57
Thread Starter 
Yep, that was the stuff. I also used a layer of cheap basic black spandex behind the silver so you can't see thru the screen. I built a frame out of 1x4 boards and before assembly I ran it thru my router table to put two grooves/channels in the back and used window screen spline to secure the spandex to the wood. easy-peasy!
post #35 of 57
Thanks guys for your spandex advice. I have a 106" Accuscreen AT which I like but want to go slightly wider for widescreen movies (92" up to 108"). Unfortunately I found this thread after buying the white spandex. Tacked it up tonight to have a look and was impressed with the smooth, texture free picture. Did notice though that the image is brighter but the blacks are sadder than my current screen. Time to put in an order for the silver stuff. I can feel my wife's hands closing around my throat already.

By the way DevonS, I was scanning through your old build thread looking for pictures of your current screen setup when it abruptly ended mid-upgrade. What's up?
Edited by DavidK442 - 6/27/12 at 10:19pm
post #36 of 57
Bought silver matt spandex yesterday. Thick, looks like good quality. Can't imagine it is much different then the stuff you guys have used.
Temporarily tacked it up in front of my flat black wall with almost no stretch. The image was impressive. Black level much better than the white spandex and even a bit better than the Accuscreen. I then tacked up the white spandex beside it. Wow! You really don't know how much light you are losing until you have a direct comparison. The silver is a very light color but next to the white it certainly knocks down the lumens. Color hue's didn't shift but the vivid pop took a hit. Similar effect as my ND2 filter which I use sometimes, but not quite so drastic, and of course the silver screen has a benefit when the lights come on where as the filter definately does not. If only I could have the blacks of the silver and the color and brightness of the white....without buying a better projector. All in all, with the poor black level of the Acer the silver is the way to go. Might be a different story when I upgrade. Took some pictures to post this weekend. I love that there if virtually no texture to this material.
post #37 of 57
DavidK442,

As you did not mention what PJ your using I had to search out a few of your posts on other Forums.

Try out your Epson 8350 on Living Room mode....or even Dynamic, then calibrate the PJ to the screen's Gray shade.
(...if you haven't already done that....that could be a big reason for your small degree of dissatisfaction...)

Also, and another thing you should try is placing the White spandex directly behind and against the Gray. Even with the tight weave of the Gray, you are leaking substantial lumen out the back, and that results in probably 25% less Foot lambert of reflected brightness.

Those who have had the best success at achieving the best image quality have followed that dictate. And what's really fortunate is that the additional Fabric does not seem to affect the quality of frequency response enough to even matter, seeing that the first layer doesn't seem to affect it at all!
post #38 of 57
Mississipiman, thanks for the reply. I did mention that I have an Acer but didn't say it is the old 720p 5360 model.
Switching it out of Eco perks up the image, but impacts the blacks a bit. Doesn't help that I have almost 3000 hrs on the bulb. Still, I am very happy with the Silver spandex. It is a good compromise.
I will definately try the white behind the grey and will hopefully be able to post my comparison pics. (My old desktop computer at home blew up yesterday. 8 years of daily abuse was too much for it I guess.)
post #39 of 57
Thread Starter 
Hey DavidK... I'll have to go over the old thread and see where I left off. I'm terrible at keeping up with documenting the upgrades. Once the upgrades start ramping up I end up enjoying them rather than evaluating and documenting them. rolleyes.gif

Unfortunately, now it's time for an AVR upgrade since my Onkyo 605 stopped giving me video.

I need some calibration on my setup too. I did run thru a calibration disc, but still notice that dark scenes are really crushed. My screen is the silver spandex over black. Colors and bright scenes are amazing, but I'm just not loving horror flicks down there right now. frown.gif
post #40 of 57
Silver backed with White will take care of that "Crush" , DevonS
post #41 of 57
DevonS, I have sitting on my floor waiting for me when I get home the silver and white spandex. I will be glad to throw up some pictures on here tonight if you would like me to. I have a completely light controlled basement room so let me know if you would like silver over white and/or the white over the silver for comparison. I am at work at the moment and am unable to look back through the thread but if you need a little artificial light or anything for comparison I have no problem trying my best to take pictures with different lighting.

I would have had it put up last night but I am trying to figure out the screen size I want and how to treat my walls and ceiling. Thumb tacks galore after work to stretch the bad boys out

(I have the Epson Home Cinema 8100)
post #42 of 57
Here are some comparison shots of the silver on top of the white (left half) and White by itself over my wood paneling held up by push pins. Excuse the shift in exposures. (Images 4 and 5 of this set are very indicative of the actual quality )

400

400

400

400

400

It was in a completely light controlled room (except for the light being reflected back from the walls and ceilings. The silver over the white just didnt have the pop that the white on the paneling only had.

Below is the white completely over the silve:

400

400

400

400

Here are some shots from the opening of The Dark Knight with the white over the silver:

400

400

You can see all of the light being reflected in this one. It is about 50% blown out of proportion due to the camera but it is very noticeable.

400

400

Hope this helps. The silver over the white still looked great but in my light controlled room when it was projected onto the white it just felt "right" and thats the way I am leaning towards layering when I frame tomorrow.
post #43 of 57
I agree with your determination as far as the White over Silver looking better than the reverse in your specific instance. Having a Silver undercoating beneath a White surface was always the best of the DIY paint applications for a controlled to semi-controlled lighting situation produced Black levels that were superior to White alone, and that surely shows up in your images.

The problem back then was that what with most people Rolling on paint (2003-2005) that it was very difficult for people to get just the right amount of paint over the Silver to have it be thin enough to let a decent amount of light pass through to react to the Silver, and then be able to intermingle with the topmost image.

No issues in that regard using a far more porous Spandex.

It is obvious to me however that in fact, although the images on the White alone look "brighter", they are blown out as far as color saturation and a natural look of depth as opposed to the Silver/White combo. Bright isn't all it's cracked up to be, and obviously your White / Silver example shows that to be true as one can see that the darkened returned light beneath the White serves to curtail the overly bright, almost washed out appearance of the White Spandex alone. But there is a distinct difference in image quality in the first Silver over White example shown, where there is ambient light present. The White side is decidedly washed out.

Besides all that, since the Silver Spandex is not in fact a "reflective-oriented" material, the darker color serves to attenuate light a bit. Not much....but enough to be obvious in any direct comparison with a pure White material.

Such is why .....for the most part, we resist the practice of making such obviously weighted comparisons between a White and a Gray, as the end results will always be slanted toward the White surface if sheer brightness is what is being considered as being most desirable.

And it's fur shur that brightness plays a strong part in self-determinations made by many, especially those who are new to the Front PJ genre. It's only when an obvious difference is shown that pre-set ideas and preferences tend to get reversed.

I think that if you had a more proficient PJ with at least 1800-2000+ lumens (...or the 8100 w/new Bulb) that the initial showing by the Silver over White combo would have been much more impressive. One thing that would have, or rather obviously did benefit the 8100's performance with Silver over White was the increased appearance of having deeper contrast. Fir those who have much newer PJs such as the Beamers from Epson / Optoma / Viewsonic and the like, I really do think that your results do not give enough emphasis as to the benefit of having the Silver on top.

But even so, for those with a dedicated and light controlled Theater, and who are especially are looking for a viable alternative to the far more expensive Acoustically Transparent Mfg Screen materials, what you've shown is of almost immeasurable value. The White over Silver does in fact look splendid.

I've taken the liberty of cut & pasting excerpts of the two identical scenes that are both shown with the varying Silver/ white combos.

The bottom image is of course White over Silver

SilveroverWhiteoverSilvercomparison.jpg

As seen, the depth of shadows, and the richness in color saturation is very apparent in both the Silver over White and the White over Silver combos, but lacking in the "White only" representation. Brightness is the only real advantage the "White only" has over the other two. The White over Silver does show a slight uptick as far as brightness as compared to the Silver over White, but not a whole lot.. Really, it's the presence of enhanced contrast that spells the difference over "White only."

Memphisanid, we all owe you a well deserved thank you for the effort you put out! So now comes the caveat. Using the same chosen scene (...how about the Night shot of the Joker looking through the Armored Truck's windshield...) can you put up a shot of the Silver over White that shows the Silver completely covering the White, the reverse as far as White over Silver, and one each of both alone? and take at least one shot of each in ambient light? If you can do that, such a complete dossier of examples for comparison would be well nigh invaluable to those considering a Spandex solution, and it will most assuredly find it's way into the "Advanced DIY Screens" compilation I'm making for potential "Sticky Status".

No matter what else, ya dun gud. cool.gif
post #44 of 57
Have been experimenting with Silver and White Spandex as well. My thoughts:
(Remember I am using a low end Acer 5360 projector which has lots of lumens but terrible black level. I can see where someone with a better projector with great black levels but lower lumens may prefer the white.)

Silver with flat black paint behind:
- A considerable drop in light reflection compared to white
- Still acceptable to me on eco mode at 108" wide.
- Surprisingly good at reducing the effect of ambient light. The screen is a very light silver but it seems to suck the glow out of the room when the lights are dimmed.
- Colors look rich compared to white but do lose some of the vibrant pop.
- Best of all is the improvement in black levels. Difficult from memory but the blacks seem as good if not better than using my ND2 filter.

White with Silver Spandex behind:
- Wow! Now that is a bright image. The colors are vibrant. The image doesn't look at all washed out...until blacks show up.
- Zero help with ambient light, in fact the screen glows like it is bioluminescent.
- Black levels with the Acer on the white are BRUTAL...for me unwatchable.
- Found similar results with and without Silver Spandex behind. I had no stretch on the fabric = maximum light reflection, worst blacks possible.

The pictures below show these two compared side by side. Notice the differences in blacks. Doesn't look like a big deal in these pictures but in reality it is very damaging to the image in general. I took one shot of a pure black screen. Severely overexposed to approximate the difference.

450

450

450


I will be going with Silver over White. Noticed a slight increase in pop on brighter seens with no loss of black level. Am curious to see the effect of some stretch.

Here are a couple of the screen frame in process.
113 X 56 (Fits the area I have and will give me close to a common area display.)
Used standard rail and style frame construction then added a 1.75"X1/4" ridge around the perimeter to prevent the fabric from contacting the center supports when stretched.

450

450

Will post pictures of the finished scrren. Hopefuly will find time to staple the white and silver spandex on tonight.
Won't be able to try it out as the wife is having some friends over to watch Seven Brides for Seven Brothers (yes really) on my old screen.
Edited by DavidK442 - 7/16/12 at 6:51pm
post #45 of 57
The spandex is stretched and the screen is up. A pretty easy process and if the nice straight trim pieces are any indication I did a decent job of keeping the stretch even.
I pulled both the bottom white and the top silver layers just taught enough to eliminate wrinkles and ensure there would be no sag. I was a bit disappointed to see very narrow horizontal striations across the entire width of the finished screen. Not wrinkles or different degrees of tensioning but rather variations in the fabric itself. Very odd, a little like tiny pregnancy stretch marks. Easily seen from several feet with a bright down light directly above but thankfully the lines are not visible when the screen is lit.
I watched I-Robot tonight (a visually impressive movie to begin with) and I was completely amazed by the picture quality. Plenty of brightness (thanks to the white backing I assume) with a depth of black level that I have never seen in my low end projector before. I was totally impressed. I can't imagine that Acousticaly transparent projection surfaces get any better than this, no matter how much they cost.
Edited by DavidK442 - 7/20/12 at 8:15pm
post #46 of 57
I had to edit my last post. I commented that I could see horizontal striations of light and dark in bright projected images.
Played around a little bit tonight and found that the artifact was being generated by the cheap mirror I am using to bounce the image for increased light path distance.
It is not the Spandex's fault at all. Sigh of relief! Much easier to buy a better mirror (perhaps first surface) then screw around with the screen material.
I love spandex...in all its varied uses!
Edited by DavidK442 - 7/22/12 at 1:09pm
post #47 of 57
DavidK442,

Good Man!

I'm sure many will welcome that revision as to date I do not recall anyone else ever having reported such surface aberrations using the most popular Silver Moleskin Spandex.

Sooooooo.........where are those Screen shots, Brother? cool.gif








biggrin.gif
post #48 of 57
Hi all - I also posted elsewhere - I am going to go with silver over white but wanted to know which side of the silver spandex are you projecting on? On side looks shinier than the other.

Thanks,
Jim
post #49 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyk36 View Post

Hi all - I also posted elsewhere - I am going to go with silver over white but wanted to know which side of the silver spandex are you projecting on? On side looks shinier than the other.
Thanks,
Jim

use the non glossy side
post #50 of 57
Great - Thanks MM!

I am assuming the underlying white shouldn't matter which side?
post #51 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyk36 View Post

Great - Thanks MM!
I am assuming the underlying white shouldn't matter which side?

Probably not, however it would be best to play it safe and use the flat (matte )side to avoid any chance of glare coming through on very bright content.
post #52 of 57
I originally used black spandex as the backer for the Silver Moleskin. I had been hearing about the benefits of using white spandex as a backer so I tried it and have been impressed with the results. My projector is a Sony VPL-AW15 paired with a Panasonic DMP-BDT500 player. I did notice a brightness boost and I'm glad I made the switch. This screen shot is silver over white.

DSCN2403.jpg
post #53 of 57
I would be interested in seeing a direct comparo of the black backed moleskin vs the white backed silver moleskin
post #54 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke Broadway View Post

I would be interested in seeing a direct comparo of the black backed moleskin vs the white backed silver moleskin

There is no magic to it. The black backing will suck up any light that makes it through the silver spandex while the white backing will tend to reflect it. For any particular combination of projector and screen size the black backed will have a slightly darker picture with a corresponding improvement in black level while the white backed will be slightly brighter with a bit of a hit to black level. Which combination is better will depend on the projector used, the screen size, viewing content and personal preference.
For the price of a few yards of spandex feel free to experiment yourself and report the results. I doubt anyone could even capture on camera the subtle differences that I saw when I ran these tests myself.
post #55 of 57
The visual differences between a reflective backing and a absorptive backing are tied to the amount of light that strikes the Screen surface, as well as the reflectivity / absorbancy quotient of the screen surface itself. Light lost and not reclaimed...even in the smaller amounts, means attenuation regardless of the Screen surface used.

Front / Rear

Bright White w/Black :good

Gray w/White :good

White w/Silver :good

Silver w/Black :poor unless dealing with uber-lumen output

While some combinations can be more broadly geared, DavidK442 has it right....one must experiment to find the balance needed for an optimal end result, and much of any satisfaction will be wholly dependent upon the tastes of the viewer. One size does not fit all needs, PJ & room specs, or personal tastes....but some combos do go further than others do.
post #56 of 57
Thanks. Just trying to sort out if I am gonna use the silver metallic as the backer or the back side of that which is white with a sheen to it.
post #57 of 57
I'd use the SM as you stated it's matte. Sheen can be risky when the overlaying material is as porous as spandex. One needs a uniform degree of reflectivity, and anything with any real degree of sheen risks transferring a pinpoint reflection of the light source
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: DIY Screen Section
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Screens › DIY Screen Section › Upgraded PJ. Change from SILVER to AT spandex?