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Sunflower State Cinema - Page 5

post #121 of 582
Wow, that's a heck of a post!

One piece at a time. The pros are obviously a good thing. About the acoustics. Are your speakers rear ported? If so, I can see where you might have some issues. I assume you intend to treat the front wall so that it's acoustically "dead", correct? If that's the case, I wouldn't think you will have any significant interactions between the speakers and the wall.

With that said, you could just build a false wall all the way across so that each speaker is the same distance from a boundary. You might even be able to use the space back there for a bass trap. You can never have too much bass trapping smile.gif

One more piece while I'm at it. What is the size and spacing of your floor joists? Maybe you could hang a plumb bob from a joist near where your PJ will go and have someone bounce around on the floor above. Then you can see how much movement you will be dealing with. Also, unless I'm mistaken, you could add the rest of the cross bracing in the remaining joist bays to help with floor bounce as well. AND smile.gif I've seen a post in another theater where they put a metal beam between the joists to hange the PJ from. As long as the two ends of the beam are decoupled from the floor above, the kids can bang around all they like and it won't matter.
post #122 of 582
I have a similar beam running width-wise in my room, but was planning to leave it in the front half of the room to preserve headroom over the riser.
post #123 of 582
Thread Starter 
I expect most people to just fall asleep before they reach the end of my outline post so thanks for pushing through.

My speakers are rear ported but I expect I won't have them for more than a few years. Yes, I plan to treat the space behind the false wall.

I have thought recently about doing a baffle wall there just in front of the stairwell wall. I was a little concerned about how the Orbit Shifter would react to being in a baffle wall. Jeff of JTR said that it would help to eliminate the rear reflection. But, I want to make sure that I am properly corner loading it to add to the low end and the distance is different for each room. Normally, you would start with the mouth of the horn close to the wall and slowly pull it away while taking measurements. But, if it is in a baffle wall facing forward then the distance will be fixed.

The floor joists are 9x14 and they vary a little bit.

JPA, I think you just gave me an idea while I was reading your suggestion about the extra bracing. If I flip the room then the beam will be in the rear 1/3 of the room. So instead of placing the bracing across the joists like most people do maybe I could put another piece of steel between the steel support beam and the foundation wall lengthways. The extra piece of steel would sit on top of the foundation wall so it would not be touching the subfloor. This may or may not but I will check into it for sure.

Or maybe even better I could place 2 extra joists lengthways that are not quite as wide so that they do not reach the subfloor. Then, I put in cross bracing between those joists and hang the PJ from that.
post #124 of 582
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by xjagox View Post

I have a similar beam running width-wise in my room, but was planning to leave it in the front half of the room to preserve headroom over the riser.

X,

What is your ceiling height? This is my main problem. Mine is 7'9'' and it is difficult for me to have a tall 16:9 image and have the rear row be able to see both over the front row to the bottom of the image and under the beam to the top of the image. So putting the beam in the rear 1/3 of the room solves this. It would also be more aesthetically pleasing.

Ceiling height can cause major headaches. Just make sure that the rear row can actually see before you proceed with it.

For example my riser is supposed to be 12'' high and my beam is about 10'' down and a few more inches will be added when a soffit is placed around it. I can make it work with an image that is 46" tall placed approx 12'' from the ceiling. This height gives me a 2.35:1 image of 9ft wide. But then my 16:9 image would be very small so I want to make a taler 16:9 image that is closer to 54'' tall and that is where things fall apart. You also have to be careful that tall people in the rear row don't have their heads right behind a surround speaker and the top of my speakers are 12'' from the ceiling and are at least 12'' tall...........lots of variables.
post #125 of 582
If you are struggling with headroom, don't forget about a mini riser. It will allow you to keep your main riser at a height that works with your soffits by only raising the actual seats.
post #126 of 582
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaceman View Post

If you are struggling with headroom, don't forget about a mini riser. It will allow you to keep your main riser at a height that works with your soffits by only raising the actual seats.

This is a good idea.

I am planning to make my riser into a bass trap though. I will make it as low as possible then.
post #127 of 582
Thread Starter 
I met with Shawn Byrne (Sierra Mike Bravo) of Erskine Group yesterday for a consultation. We covered many topics and I think I am much further along the road to working out the details necessary for me to move forward with the build.

I initially did the AVS layout via Erskine Group and this gave me a good place to start from. I think if you don't get the foundation right it won't really matter what you do with your room after that. No amount of treatment or calibration could possibly put a dent in the harm you do with improper speaker placement, etc.

I am posting here because I think the combination of the layout and a consultation such as I have done if a particularly good value for the average DIY guy here. Those who want a turn key solution can choose one of the many options Erskine Group has available. But, there are many more who do not have the budget and want to do as much of the work as they can themselves. They just need a little help. I think the consulting service is valuable to this type of DIY'er. Much can be gleaned from information in the forums and then a few holes filled in with consultation.

So far I have utilized the Layout Service from Erskine Group, HT coaching with Warren, gone to HT tours like the one in Omaha, received tons and tons of help on the forums, the HT book, and lots of friends. I just want to encourage people to reach out to as many sources as they feel they can with their budget.

btw I think we decided against the room flip. Lots of compromises and just trying to make the best overall compromises.
post #128 of 582
Glad we could get you on the right track Grant!! smile.gif
post #129 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedimastergrant View Post

I met with Shawn Byrne (Sierra Mike Bravo) of Erskine Group yesterday for a consultation. We covered many topics and I think I am much further along the road to working out the details necessary for me to move forward with the build.
I initially did the AVS layout via Erskine Group and this gave me a good place to start from. I think if you don't get the foundation right it won't really matter what you do with your room after that. No amount of treatment or calibration could possibly put a dent in the harm you do with improper speaker placement, etc.
I am posting here because I think the combination of the layout and a consultation such as I have done if a particularly good value for the average DIY guy here. Those who want a turn key solution can choose one of the many options Erskine Group has available. But, there are many more who do not have the budget and want to do as much of the work as they can themselves. They just need a little help. I think the consulting service is valuable to this type of DIY'er. Much can be gleaned from information in the forums and then a few holes filled in with consultation.
So far I have utilized the Layout Service from Erskine Group, HT coaching with Warren, gone to HT tours like the one in Omaha, received tons and tons of help on the forums, the HT book, and lots of friends. I just want to encourage people to reach out to as many sources as they feel they can with their budget.
btw I think we decided against the room flip. Lots of compromises and just trying to make the best overall compromises.

Good to be in Kansas city Close to Shawn Byrne! and also future accessibility to Google fiber services for gigabit speeds! smile.gif
post #130 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedimastergrant View Post

X,
What is your ceiling height? This is my main problem. Mine is 7'9'' and it is difficult for me to have a tall 16:9 image and have the rear row be able to see both over the front row to the bottom of the image and under the beam to the top of the image. So putting the beam in the rear 1/3 of the room solves this. It would also be more aesthetically pleasing.
Ceiling height can cause major headaches. Just make sure that the rear row can actually see before you proceed with it.
For example my riser is supposed to be 12'' high and my beam is about 10'' down and a few more inches will be added when a soffit is placed around it. I can make it work with an image that is 46" tall placed approx 12'' from the ceiling. This height gives me a 2.35:1 image of 9ft wide. But then my 16:9 image would be very small so I want to make a taler 16:9 image that is closer to 54'' tall and that is where things fall apart. You also have to be careful that tall people in the rear row don't have their heads right behind a surround speaker and the top of my speakers are 12'' from the ceiling and are at least 12'' tall...........lots of variables.

I've got about 8'6" with a beam that hangs 10" below that. Based on my current plans for screen size and location, I don't think I have any real concerns with the beam blocking sight lines. It is more of an architectural annoyance to have a random horizontal soffit dividing the ceiling into odd sections. I've thought about maybe just keeping the ceiling height down from the beam to the screen wall (looks like you thought about that as well).

I'll be interested in seeing how you incorporate your beam into the finished ceiling.
post #131 of 582
In regards to the beam, I remember coming across this theater in the early stages of my research. I liked how the ceiling soffits were designed to create two tray ceilings.

This is the only picture that I could find.


Here is a video that the builder made.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_0qZtcfTh4&feature=related

It may give you some inspiration.

Keep up the good work!
post #132 of 582
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by xjagox View Post

I've got about 8'6" with a beam that hangs 10" below that. Based on my current plans for screen size and location, I don't think I have any real concerns with the beam blocking sight lines. It is more of an architectural annoyance to have a random horizontal soffit dividing the ceiling into odd sections. I've thought about maybe just keeping the ceiling height down from the beam to the screen wall (looks like you thought about that as well).
I'll be interested in seeing how you incorporate your beam into the finished ceiling.

It looks like you have an extra 9'' of ceiling height compared to me. I would do unspeakable things for something like that.

It does matter where the beam falls in relation to the people and the screen. My beam is close to the screen and creates problems.

It is looking like I will bring the soffit all the way back to the screen just as you said. I will need to bring the soffit up a few inches though to clear my screen. So it will have a stepped look. No perfect solution really. I am hoping the dark paint will lessen the visual impact.

I hear you about the architectural annoyance and I am leaning towards something similar to what austin talked about.
post #133 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedimastergrant View Post

It looks like you have an extra 9'' of ceiling height compared to me. I would do unspeakable things for something like that.
It does matter where the beam falls in relation to the people and the screen. My beam is close to the screen and creates problems.
It is looking like I will bring the soffit all the way back to the screen just as you said. I will need to bring the soffit up a few inches though to clear my screen. So it will have a stepped look. No perfect solution really. I am hoping the dark paint will lessen the visual impact.
I hear you about the architectural annoyance and I am leaning towards something similar to what austin talked about.

What are your dimensions?
Screen to beam...width of beam...beam to back wall?
post #134 of 582
Thread Starter 
screen to beam is close to 5'6''
width of beam is 5.5''
beam to back wall is just over 7'

beam comes down from ceiling joists 9.75''
post #135 of 582
Thread Starter 
aaustin,

That design could work. Still think the beam might stick out because my ceilings are so low.

I have been messing around with different ideas. Here are a few. We have to keep in mind that it would be nice to run the HVAC in the soffits but I won't be able to if I want the supplies to come out in front of the beam away from the seats. I also need to run cables and have a place to put can lights and LED rope lights.

This one is a basic soffit around the rear perimeter with an extra lip to put the LED rope lighting



This one adds a few more soffits lengthwise. I made hash marks on them.



This is a two coffer ceiling. It would not be as elaborate as what you see in high end rooms. I could put the lip for the LED rope lighting inside of each coffer as well. Lots of options for the can lights in all of these designs.



I am also considering a few small sconces.
post #136 of 582
You can do something simliar to what Aaustin described, however, make sure you keep symmetry with the room if you want the ceiling to match up with the room rather than someone coming in and saying..."oh look, that must be a beam!". You'll have to work the back to match the front. Make it look like it was supposed to be there by design. smile.gif
post #137 of 582
Thread Starter 
Vik,

Google fiber would be pretty much the ultimate. They are expanding the availability but it is not in my area yet. They have not even announced when/if it will as far as I know. It is strange that my area was not included because there is a big market in the Johnson County area. Fingers crossed for the future.

Another project I would like to complete before drywall is bringing all of my modem, internet gear, etc down to the storage area behind the theater. I can then easily run a wired connection for my planned HTPC, and whatever other media servers I end up with instead of relying on wifi.
Edited by jedimastergrant - 4/8/13 at 2:47pm
post #138 of 582
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SierraMikeBravo View Post

You can do something simliar to what Aaustin described, however, make sure you keep symmetry with the room if you want the ceiling to match up with the room rather than someone coming in and saying..."oh look, that must be a beam!". You'll have to work the back to match the front. Make it look like it was supposed to be there by design. smile.gif

Yeah, we were talking about possible ways to tackle this the other day. I think I finally understand what you are getting at by making the ceiling match the other features of the room. None of the above drawings really do that particularly well but I will come up with something else.
post #139 of 582
Hi Jedi Master, any updates on your room?
post #140 of 582
Thread Starter 
Well the update is we had our third child on Thanksgiving Day! Needless to say work has ground to a full stop. I have been taking care of our 18 month old twins whenever I am not at work.

My hopefully near future plans are:

1. Finish my consulting services with Erskine Group.

2. Hammer out final details of hvac and lighting.

3. My contractor has recently taken another job and may or may not be involved with this project. So I need to get some bids from various folks. I want to do all that I can but realistically I just don't have the time with 3 boys under 18 months and one of them a newborn. And I don't know a thing about electrical or hvac anyway.

I have a vacation coming up in a week so I would like to get those 3 things done and move forward. At this point I just want to write a check and start enjoying it ASAP.
post #141 of 582
Congrats on the new arrival! My oldest was born on Thanksgiving 3 years ago. I'm never going to let him live down the fact that I missed Thanksgiving dinner that day smile.gif

I feel for you! It's near impossible to find time to work on the theater with small kids in the house. I've been considering pulling out the check book and just having it done as well, but I'm afraid they'd laugh at the balance smile.gif
post #142 of 582
Thread Starter 
Another turkey baby! Cool. His bday is 11-22-12 so all ones and twos which I thought was pretty neat.

I don't have the money to just write a check either. I was really just dreaming. I will need help with a lot of it though bc I would end up electrocuting myself or something.

Watching the progress in other threads like viks and both Tim's is just killing me lately.

I had an hvac meeting today that I had to cancel bc they needed me at work. Gotta do what I gotta do.
Edited by jedimastergrant - 4/21/13 at 10:27am
post #143 of 582
Congrats on your newborn! That's probably the best reason to put a project on hold. You are not alone though, my build has been on hold until after the holidays as well.
post #144 of 582
+1 on the newborn! smile.gif
post #145 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedimastergrant View Post

ignoringmywife,
I am thinking about doing a DIY screen with Center Stage XD. I was admiring your work in your thread with 80/20 and I was hoping to use it to build my screen frame. What do you think? It would need to be very strong and have some kind of a tensioning system attached to it. Maybe use 2 cross braces at the 1/3 points. Don't know exactly how I would attach the fabric to the 80/20. I guess I could use a grommet system. dunno.
btw I love the murphy bed. I have a small 9x10 room in my bsmnt that I would like to use as an exercise room but my wife wants it to have a bed. Could be the perfect compromise no?

First, my apologies for missing the post addressed to me; my powers of observation astound even me. I think the 80/20 would be a very effective screen frame. No more than 2 cross braces would be necessary. I'm not sure on fabric attachment... you might browse their hardware catalog to see if there is a good solution. The stuff is great to work with.

I love our wall bed. The Rockler kit was great and plans very well done, indeed a perfect addition to a small room!
post #146 of 582
Thread Starter 
Great. The 80/20 seems like a great way to avoid the warping that I have heard about with other materials.

It would be lightweight too. Hopefully not so light that it is prone to vibrations.

Maybe I should just have Chris put in the grommets at the factory. Not sure if I can do it myself. Then I would probably need to cover the corners somehow so the fabric does not tear when I cinch it up. I have not gotten that far yet and there are a few things I still need to work out.

If I just want to get it done quick the Jamestown screen frames are friendly on the wallet.
post #147 of 582
Congrats on the Newborn just seeing the thread in a long time!
post #148 of 582
Hi Grant,

I saw the original Erskine diagrams in your first post, and you also noted that some changes were being made, like the back wall to create an equipment room (great idea, especially to get the PJ noise out of there). The surrounds will be the Triads. These are monopole, whereas the Erskine drawings showed dipoles. Maybe that's just the symbol they use for surround speakers, but maybe it was intentional due to the limited distance between the rear seats and the rear speakers. Placing them up high, as shown, will probably help in that regard, though. Did you discuss speaker types with them?

You also mention the front row is the primary row, so I figure the MLP (main listening position) is front row center. If so, how much emphasis do you put on the performance in that seat vs. the others. For example, 90% of the time I use my theater alone, in the MLP, and that's usually with music (surround music). Being a rather "particular" listener, I want the performance optimized for that seat, as long as it does not make a mess of the other seats when occupied. (There is no way to make all 6 seats identical in sound and image performance, so why fight it?) When the other seats are occupied, I use a different speaker configuration that alters the delays and levels to get the best results over the larger area. Of course the speakers remain put.

Your text discusses the rear seats being theater types to save space, but the drawings show recliners. Is that decided?

Is your theater use aimed at both music and movies, or just movies/TV?
Edited by Roger Dressler - 12/26/12 at 12:58pm
post #149 of 582
Thread Starter 
Roger,

The speakers recommended by Erskine Group for my room are the Triad Inwall Bronze Surrounds. They are a dipole design and I still an to use them but have not purchased yet.

Yes that seat will be the MLP and I do want it to be the best seat as far as the weighting is concerned. I told them that I was alright with the back row being sub par in order to get a better main row. My back row is just too close to the rear wall to expect perfection.

I like the idea of having two settings for when it is just me and when there is a group. So do you use Audessey with two settings to achieve this? My plan was to unlock the pro version on my denon 4311.

I do plan to use theater type fold down seats to save space and money. My back row need to be pretty small. I am treating the back row like "hey you are just lucky to have a seat bro".

My theater will probably be 75 percent movies. I recently went to the Omaha theater tour and andersa's theater seemed to be set up more for music. It got me thinking maybe I should do the same thing. It could be a very relaxing place to unwind. Maybe the two setting strategy could get me there.

I am finishing up my consulting with Erskine group on Saturday so I might bring that up.
post #150 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedimastergrant View Post

Roger,
The speakers recommended by Erskine Group for my room are the Triad Inwall Bronze Surrounds. They are a dipole design and I still plan to use them but have not purchased yet.
Thanks for clarifying. I had looked at "Triad Inwall Bronze" by mistake.
Quote:
Yes that seat will be the MLP and I do want it to be the best seat as far as the weighting is concerned. I told them that I was alright with the back row being sub par in order to get a better main row. My back row is just too close to the rear wall to expect perfection.
In that case I would suggest a few tweaks, moving things just a matter of inches here and there. The result as shown in the diagram.
Quote:
I do plan to use theater type fold down seats to save space and money. My back row need to be pretty small. I am treating the back row like "hey you are just lucky to have a seat bro".
Since you are not going with the full recliners, then the seats can be ~20" further forward, which helps both the bass quality and surround effects. It still leaves enough room to get to the seats. (My 6' riser is just like this.)

The other tweaks:
--Showing 4 seats in the rear row.
--Moved the rear speakers a little wider. This puts the dipole null right behind the closest seats, and will help widen the rear image a little for the MLP.
--Moved the surrounds as far forward as possible.
--Moved the front row seats back against the riser. This and the previous item help the surround envelopment in the MLP. Ideally the surrounds would be even with the MLP, but the doorway prevents that.
--Moved the L/R speakers as close to the screen as possible. Helps integrate the sound with image, and is closer to the optimal 60-deg angle for MLP music listening.

Assuming the riser is about 11" tall, you'll be having a step on either end. Is that in the plan? Could get tricky near the door.

Speaking of risers, I see the L/C/R speakers are also on an 11" riser. That puts the tweeters about 17" high for the MLP, and 6" high even for the rear seats. Seems excessive. If they were sitting on the floor it would be just as good for the rear and a lot better for the front.
Quote:
I like the idea of having two settings for when it is just me and when there is a group. So do you use Audessey with two settings to achieve this? My plan was to unlock the pro version on my denon 4311.
My processor is a Classe SSP-800, and it lets the user create up to 6 "configs" which is the menu where one chooses which speakers to use, whether to cross them over or run full range, set delays and gains. Other products have a similar facility, but I am not sure about the Denon AVRs.
Quote:
My theater will probably be 75 percent movies. I recently went to the Omaha theater tour and andersa's theater seemed to be set up more for music. It got me thinking maybe I should do the same thing. It could be a very relaxing place to unwind. Maybe the two setting strategy could get me there.
I think there is no real compromise for movies in making sure it works well for surround music. The main thing I have found is that I need to reduce the subwoofer 6 dB for movies vs. music. A "movie config" makes that easy.

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