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2012 Samsung Pricing and Release Dates - Page 3

post #61 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dierkdr View Post

OTOH: We've had 4 60" 2011 Pan plasmas in house (technically 5, but one arrived with a cracked screen): ALL of them have had Green Blobs AND Pink Tint. So has both of our No. 1 Son's 2011 Pan plasmas. Build dates ranging from Jul to Dec. Between us, we've checked OVER 20 panels at various local stores - including having store reps involved, and even unboxing sets (CostCo can be great during Off Hours!): ALL of them have had Either Green and/or Pink TINTS, and many had actual Green Blobs.

To be fair, on some of the panels you have to Go Looking for the problem(s), and many users would never notice them in normal viewing (or would simply shrug their shoulders & assume The Source was at fault) - but it stretches the imagination to think that only a small percentage of the 2011 panels exhibit Unwanted Green and/or Pink (AKA: Magenta).

It has been a while since my last Statistics course, but - from memory - if given even a Very Large Parts Population, with a presumed 50% Fault rate, the odds are of drawing 20 Faulty Units in a row are Extremely Low.

But, perhaps that really is Just Our Luck - and if that is the case, you can see why we have not changed over to Samsung and risked the Cracking Panel Glitch!

In all, we have 3 Pan plasmas now - 4 years old, 2 years old, and about 6 weeks old (and half-way through return period): Would LOVE to see something in the next 6 weeks that suggests 2012 Samsung (or LG, for that matter!) would perform better - reliably - at similar cost to the ST30...

Anyone giving odds of that happening?

Thanks for posting this. Hopefully you don't get rogo'd like I did.

I had the same experience; EVERY VT30 I checked had it. We also did the same thing. This added to all of the other inadequacies of the VT30 left a bad taste in my mouth. So I gave up on it...

I'd say slim to none on the odds for the cracked screen. Have you seen reports of the spontaneous inner screen cracking with the 2011's Samsung's? I was under the impression it was mostly limited to some specific years prior to 2011. I just don't recall reading about it last year at least with the D7/8000 anyway, I didn't track the other models.
post #62 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dierkdr View Post


Where does Samsung sit at the moment on the problem of Spontaneously Cracking Screens?

Am guessing that this happens to a Tiny Percentage of overall panels, but yet it seems to be most often associated with Samsung - AND, is something that has NOT been covered under warranty.

OTOH: We've had 4 60" 2011 Pan plasmas in house (technically 5, but one arrived with a cracked screen): ALL of them have had Green Blobs AND Pink Tint. So has both of our No. 1 Son's 2011 Pan plasmas. Build dates ranging from Jul to Dec. Between us, we've checked OVER 20 panels at various local stores - including having store reps involved, and even unboxing sets (CostCo can be great during Off Hours!): ALL of them have had Either Green and/or Pink TINTS, and many had actual Green Blobs.

To be fair, on some of the panels you have to Go Looking for the problem(s), and many users would never notice them in normal viewing (or would simply shrug their shoulders & assume The Source was at fault) - but it stretches the imagination to think that only a small percentage of the 2011 panels exhibit Unwanted Green and/or Pink (AKA: Magenta).

It has been a while since my last Statistics course, but - from memory - if given even a Very Large Parts Population, with a presumed 50% Fault rate, the odds are of drawing 20 Faulty Units in a row are Extremely Low.

But, perhaps that really is Just Our Luck - and if that is the case, you can see why we have not changed over to Samsung and risked the Cracking Panel Glitch!

In all, we have 3 Pan plasmas now - 4 years old, 2 years old, and about 6 weeks old (and half-way through return period): Would LOVE to see something in the next 6 weeks that suggests 2012 Samsung (or LG, for that matter!) would perform better - reliably - at similar cost to the ST30...

Anyone giving odds of that happening?

Radial cracks eminating from a central point are impact caused.

I can't find it right now, but there is a picture in a forum of a Panasonic plasma with the exact same looking crack as all the "we swear it just happened and nobody did ANYTHING" Samsung cracks.

The difference is this Guy admits his young child threw a cardboard box at it.

If you go to the Cnet Samsung forums you will see about 5 people that Samsung paid off to shut them up and get them out of their hair.

The total of all internet reports of this are a handful. I put it down to the Toyota/Audi sudden acceleration non-problem syndrome with people trying to get a corporate payout for something they did (whether they knew someone did it or nobody admitted they did it is the QUESTION).
post #63 of 96
loving the comparison summary of the panny vs. samsung problems. Keep it up. I'm in the market for a nice 60"!! For 2011 models it's between the ST30/GT30 and the jaw dropping Samsung D6500. Waiting for more info on the 2012s before I make a decision.

I've been a long time Panasonic fan but my luck with their products has been bad. (Cap on a CRT went out, Power board on a $$$ plasma, microwave broke, couple cordless cellphones broke etc.. Most of the failures were within 5-7 years.

What's Samsung Canada's service like for our of warranty repairs? I'd probably lose it on them if the screen broke and they denied coverage.
post #64 of 96
Did Samsung lower the minimum price of the E6500? ABT has an instant $150 rebate on it right now, lower than the price Samsung released earlier. I was convinced I would get the E7000 at only $100 more, but now wondering if the E6500 might be worth the $250 in savings.
post #65 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dierkdr View Post

Where does Samsung sit at the moment on the problem of Spontaneously Cracking Screens?

Apparently if you scream and yell they admit it's their fault; otherwise they blame you.
Quote:
Anyone giving odds of that happening?

The odds of pulling 20 bads out in a row (whatever the defect) is so astronomically high unless the defect rate itself is astronomically high. So if you keep pulling sets with "green blobs", the only conclusion is the vast majority of sets have "green blobs".

It looks to me that if you had a 90% defect rate, you could only pull 20 defective ones in row 12% of the time (I'm not a pro at doing probability calculations, but I think that's correct). To get 20 defective sets in a row with a >50% likelihood, you'd need about a 97% defect rate.

We can therefore conclude that by your standard virtually every Panasonic plasma has some defect called "green blobs" that makes the set unenjoyable for you.

Fortunately, the vast majority of Panasonic buyers have never experienced this malady, even though when watching their sets, you would.
post #66 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Apparently if you scream and yell they admit it's their fault; otherwise they blame you.


The odds of pulling 20 bads out in a row (whatever the defect) is so astronomically high unless the defect rate itself is astronomically high. So if you keep pulling sets with "green blobs", the only conclusion is the vast majority of sets have "green blobs".

It looks to me that if you had a 90% defect rate, you could only pull 20 defective ones in row 12% of the time (I'm not a pro at doing probability calculations, but I think that's correct). To get 20 defective sets in a row with a >50% likelihood, you'd need about a 97% defect rate.

We can therefore conclude that by your standard virtually every Panasonic plasma has some defect called "green blobs" that makes the set unenjoyable for you.

Fortunately, the vast majority of Panasonic buyers have never experienced this malady, even though when watching their sets, you would.

Are there more issues with Panasonic tvs than Samsung tvs?
post #67 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by HearingImpaired View Post

Are there more issues with Panasonic tvs than Samsung tvs?

I'd probably ask someone who's owned both panels. Or even just one of the panels for that matter.

As an example of what to look for...

Just look back at Rogo's posts about the green/pink tint issue. Bare in mind he knows nothing about the issue to start he just made assumptions. Yet he's positive the issue doesn't exist on most sets without doing any research. (Panasonic even has a TSB on it and a firmware patch to try and make it harder to see)

1st he says that most panels don't have have the green/pink blobs...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogo View Post

I just can't find any evidence here at AVS or HDJ to back up either of these claims. In other words, I think these claims are false.Did some small number of people have these problems? Undoubtedly. Does that constitute "just about every"? Please.

Evidence is everywhere in the "green/pink blobs/tint" threads on ALL of the AV forums I frequent. It's not hard to find, it is hard to swallow though as the reality of it sucks.

Then a few posts later when someone else pops in and says basically the same thing I did he changes his tune. Keep in mind this is probably close to 40 TVs tested by the two of us all of which had the blobs.

*Finally* admits that yes, it does exist in nearly all of the sets. But he tried to save face by saying "well not everyone notices it... so it's OK".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogo View Post

The odds of pulling 20 bads out in a row (whatever the defect) is so astronomically high unless the defect rate itself is astronomically high. So if you keep pulling sets with "green blobs", the only conclusion is the vast majority of sets have "green blobs".

It looks to me that if you had a 90% defect rate, you could only pull 20 defective ones in row 12% of the time (I'm not a pro at doing probability calculations, but I think that's correct). To get 20 defective sets in a row with a >50% likelihood, you'd need about a 97% defect rate.

Fortunately, the vast majority of Panasonic buyers have never experienced this malady, even though when watching their sets, you would.

If you don't perceive it as a problem then there isn't a problem. But it doesn't change the fact that the defect exists! Panasonic had some manufacturing problems in 2011.

To squish the Rogo bug even further I found him asking questions to the calibrators about how bad the dithering noise is for 2011 Panasonic sets. If he knew so much about the sets he'd know the 2011's were very noisy unless you're feeding the TV a pristine signal.

So here's an example of someone who didn't actually even own one yet has this arrogant attitude like he knows it all. When in reality he had NO experience owning a 2011 Panasonic or Samsung what so ever.

My point here is not to beat Rogo down, I can honestly say a lot of what he posts is good. It's just to say I would read people's experiences who are actual owners. And especially those who calibrate the TVs, they have the most time into the sets in all areas but long term ownership.

Like one of the best calibrators for Panasonic TV's has this to say about the 2011 panels...

Quote:
Originally Posted by D-nice View Post

Will the 2012s be better than the 2011s? Sure, but that really isn't an accomplishment.... it's mandatory! Look at all the had to be done to get the 2011 product to function properly. If Panasonic were Microsoft the 2011 PDPs would be either Windows ME or Vista.

In other words, they weren't ready for prime time. I completely agree, however I choose to describe them a bit more dramatically as "a mess". The list I posted on the previous page will apply to every VT30 released. The recent calibration report I read says that the 2012 ST30 has better color than a 2011 VT30 /w the same black level, but has even more dithering/banding

And as of recent I've noticed a lot of guys with many hours on the 2011 Panasonic sets posting about burn in. You might want to research that as well.

What I did was created a spreadsheet with pros and cons as well as my own personal calibration data to cross compare. For me Samsung made the better TV in 2011 by good margin. But I did wish it had the VT30 blacks, sounds like the 2012 Samsung does

best of luck to you in your purchasing decision. We should probably steer this conversation back to it's original topic
post #68 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by HearingImpaired View Post

Are there more issues with Panasonic tvs than Samsung tvs?

If you took a poll, I think Samsung would be the answer. Fact is, both have issues and nobody has valid statistics for comparison.

FWIW, I have been reading every AVS thread related to the 2011 D series plasmas since October and have never seen a single report of spontaneously cracking screens. Screens may arrive cracked due to shipping damage, but that's it.
post #69 of 96
Guys, save the retail links & non-MSRP prices for the deals threads.

Thanks
post #70 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyjd40 View Post

Wow, robert at ve has the samsung pn64e8000 @$3299- incredible !!! That's $400 less than the vt50 - hmmm that makes the decision much easier !! Slightly better blacks arent worth $400 imho

god bless

Buy the E8000 at amazon try it out for a month. Then return it and order the VT50. The VT50 should be out by mid to end of april.

Amazon has free white glove service, no questions asked returns with free shipping.
post #71 of 96
huh?? If the defect rate is 50% evenly spread among production dates and quantities then wouldn't your chance on getting a faulty unit be 1/2 ?
post #72 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post

1st he says that most panels don't have have the green/pink blobs...

I'm sure you think I said that and can pull something out of context to "prove" this. But I'm fairly sure that isn't what I said as the post you attempt to use to impugn me actually proves.
Quote:


Evidence is everywhere in the "green/pink blobs/tint" threads on ALL of the AV forums I frequent. It's not hard to find, it is hard to swallow though as the reality of it sucks.

The fact is, the vast majority of owners don't complain about this in any forum. In one of the forums, the entire thread is one owner bitching and moaning over and over. A bunch of people reply to him, but the stunning lack of "yeah, me too" posts is the actual evidence an informed buyer is looking for.
Quote:


Then a few posts later when someone else pops in and says basically the same thing I did he changes his tune. Keep in mind this is probably close to 40 TVs tested by the two of us all of which had the blobs.

You just don't get it. That much is crystal clear. You two see this problem; most people never will. Attempting to prove everyone will be bothered by it is entirely pointless....
Quote:


*Finally* admits that yes, it does exist in nearly all of the sets. But he tried to save face by saying "well not everyone notices it... so it's OK".

Actually, that's precisely where I started. I don't need to save face as I haven't lost it. When the vast majority of the given owners of a product don't have your problem with it because whatever you see is unnoticeable to them, it's not actually a problem for them.
Quote:


If you don't perceive it as a problem then there isn't a problem. But it doesn't change the fact that the defect exists! Panasonic had some manufacturing problems in 2011.

Actually, it does change the fact. And it doesn't prove for a second it's a manufacturing defect. What we know so far is that some tiny minority of owners sees this on every display. Therefore, as I proved above it cannot be a manufacturing defect, it has to be a "design defect". But when a defect falls in the forest and makes a sound so muffled nearly no one can hear it, is it a defect at all?
Quote:


To squish the Rogo bug even further I found him asking questions to the calibrators about how bad the dithering noise is for 2011 Panasonic sets. If he knew so much about the sets he'd know the 2011's were very noisy unless you're feeding the TV a pristine signal.

You never, ever found me asking this. Ever. So your above quote is a lie. I don't care about dithering noise, never asked about dithering noise, and you won't find me asking about dithering noise. Just stop making things up.
Quote:


So here's an example of someone who didn't actually even own one yet has this arrogant attitude like he knows it all. When in reality he had NO experience owning a 2011 Panasonic or Samsung what so ever.

Actually, my attitude is that I know something, which is true. I don't need to own a TV to understand rudimentary statistics. I don't need to own a TV to read a thread where this "massive issue" is discussed and see that it's actually only one person complaining in the entire thread, proving that the problem is really more of an "eye of the beholder" issue. Is it real? Clearly to them it is. Should that inform your purchase? I'd say: Not if you don't see this thing that nearly no one sees.
Quote:


My point here is not to beat Rogo down,

Actually, that was your point. And I responded here because you felt it was appropriate to spend 100s of words off topic that serve only to beat me down and advance your false agenda (1) that Panasonic had some manufacturing defect, which I've proved is false and (2) that this "problem" is something that bothered a lot of people, which the evidence suggests is also not true at all.
Quote:


I can honestly say a lot of what he posts is good.

I used to think that was true of you.
Quote:


It's just to say I would read people's experiences who are actual owners. And especially those who calibrate the TVs, they have the most time into the sets in all areas but long term ownership.

I'm sorry, where are D-Nice's posts about the "green blobs". I must have missed them. Or, really, any calibrator complaining about this?
Quote:


Like one of the best calibrators for Panasonic TV's has this to say about the 2011 panels...

In other words, they weren't ready for prime time. I completely agree, however I choose to describe them a bit more dramatically as "a mess". The list I posted on the previous page will apply to every VT30 released. The recent calibration report I read says that the 2012 ST30 has better color than a 2011 VT30 /w the same black level, but has even more dithering/banding

Still missing the green blob stuff....
Quote:


And as of recent I've noticed a lot of guys with many hours on the 2011 Panasonic sets posting about burn in. You might want to research that as well.

That's a fair point, although I'm again skeptical that a relatively small number of reports that basically involve looking for network logo after-effects on test patterns are evidence of anything.... In one of the most "damning" representations, some guy shows us test patterns that don't demonstrate any apparent burn in at all as "proof" of burn in.
Quote:


What I did was created a spreadsheet with pros and cons as well as my own personal calibration data to cross compare. For me Samsung made the better TV in 2011 by good margin. But I did wish it had the VT30 blacks, sounds like the 2012 Samsung does

That would've been a good thing to share, if you could've done it without basically insisting a series of things that aren't true were true... Or done it with more objectivity. Objectively, Samsung's 2011 build quality was worse than Panasonic's. Does that mean performance was worse? No, it doesn't. But build quality sure was.
Quote:


best of luck to you in your purchasing decision. We should probably steer this conversation back to it's original topic

100% agreed and I'll stop here unless you find it necessary to attack me again.
post #73 of 96
The PN64E8000 and PN60E8000 have shown up on Paul's TV as "in stock".

No sign of the PNxxE7000's though.
post #74 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I'm sure you think I said that and can pull something out of context to "prove" this. But I'm fairly sure that isn't what I said as the post you attempt to use to impugn me actually proves.

1st you told me there was no way "just about every" set has the green/pink blobs.

Then you come back with your own math and say it's possible they all do have it. Which you follow up trying to discredit things by saying "but not everyone see's it so it's not an issue". We weren't discussing perception of the flaw. We were discussing if almost every 2011 Panasonic plasma TV had it, and the answer is yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

The fact is, the vast majority of owners don't complain about this in any forum. In one of the forums, the entire thread is one owner bitching and moaning over and over. A bunch of people reply to him, but the stunning lack of "yeah, me too" posts is the actual evidence an informed buyer is looking for.

blah blah

I never discussed perception of it, only that the defect exists. As in relation to quality control. YOU brought the perception of it up. I was trying to show Panasonic in 2011 really didn't deliver a well polished product

So if I hammer a nail into your car tire and you don't know about it, it's not an issue right? Is this until you notice? Or until it becomes enough of a problem?

And yes the blobs/tint do change with time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogo View Post

Actually, that's precisely where I started. I don't need to save face as I haven't lost it. When the vast majority of the given owners of a product don't have your problem with it because whatever you see is unnoticeable to them, it's not actually a problem for them.

If you didn't you wouldn't reply to a post that I didn't post to you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogo View Post

Actually, it does change the fact. And it doesn't prove for a second it's a manufacturing defect. What we know so far is that some tiny minority of owners sees this on every display. Therefore, as I proved above it cannot be a manufacturing defect, it has to be a "design defect". But when a defect falls in the forest and makes a sound so muffled nearly no one can hear it, is it a defect at all?

Who cares if the defect came from design or manufacturing. It's there. Again we weren't discussing that orignally. You tried to switch the conversation to that.

Back to my original statement, the quality wasn't good for 2011 in many ways besides the tint/blobs. Q&A missed a lot of stuff, or the product was just pushed out the door due to missed deadlines (this was probably the case).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogo View Post

You never, ever found me asking this. Ever. So your above quote is a lie. I don't care about dithering noise, never asked about dithering noise, and you won't find me asking about dithering noise. Just stop making things up.

Here you are asking... A gentleman would apologize here for calling me a liar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogo View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by D-nice View Post

Niether feature is really worth anything. Color banding will exist on all 2012 Pansonic display.

Was their actually significant false contouring on 2011 Panasonics (that wasn't due to lousy source of course)? I very rarely see false contouring on even my much older plasma. Is this really a serious problem?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=512

And before you come back and say "well I was talking about contouring not dithering". It's the same thing... posterization
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posterization

Quote:


Actually, my attitude is that I know something, which is true. I don't need to own a TV to understand rudimentary statistics. I don't need to own a TV to read a thread where this "massive issue" is discussed and see that it's actually only one person complaining in the entire thread, proving that the problem is really more of an "eye of the beholder" issue. Is it real? Clearly to them it is. Should that inform your purchase? I'd say: Not if you don't see this thing that nearly no one sees.

It's a lot more than just one person.

You don't have any statistics. You didn't even know that two people had tried a LOT of panels which all had issues. This is why we confidently posted that the flaw was pretty widespread. You didn't know this until this thread. Just just chose to try side stepping our data saying "well not everyone sees it, so it's not an issue.". Again back to my nail in the car tire analogy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogo View Post

Actually, that was your point. And I responded here because you felt it was appropriate to spend 100s of words off topic that serve only to beat me down and advance your false agenda (1) that Panasonic had some manufacturing defect, which I've proved is false and (2) that this "problem" is something that bothered a lot of people, which the evidence suggests is also not true at all.

I listed a lot of other issues besides green/pink blobs in a subsequent post. All of which are subject to perception as well. It however doesn't mean they don't exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogo View Post

That would've been a good thing to share, if you could've done it without basically insisting a series of things that aren't true were true... Or done it with more objectivity. Objectively, Samsung's 2011 build quality was worse than Panasonic's. Does that mean performance was worse? No, it doesn't. But build quality sure was.

Everything I said was true and hasn't changed.

Besides Samsung's peeling screens which they replaced and Plasma buzz. What are all of these build quality problems they had in 2011?

Do some *thorough* reading... i.e read maybe the 1st few pages of Google results each, read the threads entirely. I don't have time to search for every combination of every term used to describe the issue as not everyone describes it using the same terminology: green tint, blob, tinge... so you'd need to expand your search to find all of the posts about it.

Generic search
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...nic+green+blob

A/V sites...
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...3Aavforums.com

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...3Aavsforum.com

Sorry this site is blocking this URL because it has HDJ domain name in it.
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...**********.com

And some videos of it...
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...ic+green+tinge
https://www.google.com/search?q=pana...e=lnms&tbm=vid

Thread with a Poll
http://www.avforums.com/forums/plasm...-affected.html

Please PM me for any further follow-up. We're killing this thread... Not that it isn't dead anyway. Admin already asked not to post prices in here, and there's another thread with same sub-topic.
post #75 of 96
well, just for everyones information, Samsung will be having a promo in April , that is what gets the price of the samsung pn64e8000 so low ( it is not in violation of any upp) Also, I can say I have read tons of reports from people about the vt30, ir,burn in (from someone who babies their av/ equiptment) white pops, etc.... and yes sammy d8000 has has issues, but I have never had any with my d8000 , till last week lol and they are replacing it with the pn60e8000, Also, they are replacing the 2011 3d glasses I bought for it - tell me that is not GREAT customer service. I think the vt50 and the e8000 will both be great tv's. One thing I do hate is all the " well the black level is 0.003" from panny fanboys, as if you can really tell a difference by eye (not side by side) or if you sit there watching tv with a meter. If the blacks look great then fine, panny usually is better at blacks. Sammy did the color right on in the pnd8000 so 6 in 1 half a dozen in the other. There are many spec's people can argue for both tv's but there are many different people with different viewing preferences and picking the one that suits you best is YOUR perfect tv. Argueing which one is "better" is really irrelevent as everyone will have different viewing habits and preferences. Overall if I buy the sammy pne8000 and love it, thats the best tv for me. Anyway , sorry for the rant. I know specs and black level are very important to many people but if one tv is 0.003 and the other is 0.006 , it is irrelevant to me as either will be fine for me. Oh, and argueing the specs of a calibrated tv is only relevent if you are getting a calibrated tv, otherwise it is foolish. If the samsung pne8000 is at the low price i said earlier (which it will be) calibration is only $350 so that is a calibrated pne8000 for the same price (or a tab bit more- $50) than an uncalibrated vt50 - which would be better ? oh, I am no pro , just average joe , I just get excited easily talking about new tv's. Appologies in advance.

god bless
post #76 of 96
xxxxxxxxxxxx my mistake.
post #77 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post

And some videos of it...

https://www.google.com/search?q=pana...e=lnms&tbm=vid

Wow that really sucks. I had heard about these issues but never looked them up on YouTube. I had a 50ST30 that I returned for a 55ST30 and neither had any issues with blobs. I didn't even have the FBR issues on a May build so I guess that was lucky. My brother has the 59D8000 and he has not had any issues with it. I don't think I would have a problem buying either brand at this point. I'm intrested in the 64e7000 and 65ST50 because I just don't think the 55 is big enough to really enjoy 3D. Hopefully this thread will have some user reviews soon.
post #78 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by apom View Post

huh?? If the defect rate is 50% evenly spread among production dates and quantities then wouldn't your chance on getting a faulty unit be 1/2 ?

If a product had a 50% "true" defective rate, I do not think the unit would be sold.
post #79 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post

1st you told me there was no way "just about every" set has the green/pink blobs.

Then you come back with your own math and say it's possible they all do have it. Which you follow up trying to discredit things by saying "but not everyone see's it so it's not an issue". We weren't discussing perception of the flaw. We were discussing if almost every 2011 Panasonic plasma TV had it, and the answer is yes.

You completely misunderstood the purpose of my follow-up post on how it's not mathematically possible for that many TVs to be "defective". That much is clear.
Quote:


So if I hammer a nail into your car tire and you don't know about it, it's not an issue right? Is this until you notice? Or until it becomes enough of a problem?

If you hammer a nail into my tire, I'm calling the cops. But, honestly, if there is no air leaking, it's not a problem. More than a few of us have discovered things lodged in our tires and learned that if it ain't broke....
Quote:


If you didn't you wouldn't reply to a post that I didn't post to you.

OK, again, you are lying. I made no post about dithering. You are just lying. Period. The search function and archives and Google will prove this. You are just lying.
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Who cares if the defect came from design or manufacturing. It's there. Again we weren't discussing that orignally. You tried to switch the conversation to that.

No, you tried to switch the conversation. I was discussing quality control.
Quote:


Back to my original statement, the quality wasn't good for 2011 in many ways besides the tint/blobs. Q&A missed a lot of stuff, or the product was just pushed out the door due to missed deadlines (this was probably the case).

Again, you confuse design flaws/engineering flaws with quality control/build issues. Those are not the same.
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Here you are asking... A gentleman would apologize here for calling me a liar.

You are a liar.

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It's a lot more than just one person.

In the HDJ thread, it's one person, over and over.
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You don't have any statistics. You didn't even know that two people had tried a LOT of panels which all had issues.

So add you two to the HDJ guy and now we have three people who see this problem on every panel and hundreds who have no idea what you are even talking about.
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Just just chose to try side stepping our data saying "well not everyone sees it, so it's not an issue.". Again back to my nail in the car tire analogy.

People have prostate cancer screening done every day in this country. Then they get biopsies, radiation, chemo, have erectile disfunction, change their diet, are miserable etc... all for a disease that is unlikely to be the cause of death for 99% of them. It's becoming clear that the right path of action is to never have the exam done.....
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I listed a lot of other issues besides green/pink blobs in a subsequent post. All of which are subject to perception as well. It however doesn't mean they don't exist.

Without an objective measure of a problem, it might well not exist for the vast majority of owners. A broken glass panel? Objective. Some green/pink "blobs" (and what a misnomer) that most people can't see when you point it out to them is not an objective problem. It's a subjective one and in any subjective problem many people will simply say: "I don't care".
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Everything I said was true and hasn't changed.

Except the parts where you lied about what I said and you lied about me having an agenda you mean?
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Besides Samsung's peeling screens which they replaced and Plasma buzz. What are all of these build quality problems they had in 2011?

The mysterious broken glass that occurs inside the outer glass. And, really, those are serious QC problems. And none of them were sufficiently rare.
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Do some *thorough* reading... i.e read maybe the 1st few pages of Google results each, read the threads entirely. I don't have time to search for every combination of every term used to describe the issue as not everyone describes it using the same terminology: green tint, blob, tinge... so you'd need to expand your search to find all of the posts about it.

No, I don't. I've read the owners threads. Your complaints are simply rare.

And, no, I won't PM you for follow up. You will stop responding since every one of your posts needs to be used to insult or impugn me, you will not have the last word. If you want the last word, you can send me a PM or you can stop using your pseudo-factual explanations as cover to insult me.
post #80 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Y
You are a liar.

Lets review why you 1st called me a liar. You called me a liar saying you NEVER asked a calibrator about posterization (banding/false contouring/dithering) tehcnically speaking it's "color quantization" but I'm going to continue to use posterization for this discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogo View Post

You never, ever found me asking this. Ever. So your above quote is a lie. I don't care about dithering noise, never asked about dithering noise, and you won't find me asking about dithering noise. Just stop making things up.

Keep on topic now. Topic is you not asking a calibrator about posterization.

This is YOU asking d-nice about posterization... Which is what BANDING/FALSE CONTOURING/DITHERING is on the Panasonic plasma.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by d-nice View Post

Niether feature is really worth anything. Color banding will exist on all 2012 Pansonic display.

Was their actually significant false contouring on 2011 Panasonics (that wasn't due to lousy source of course)? I very rarely see false contouring on even my much older plasma. Is this really a serious problem?

Here is the link to your post I just referenced...
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=512

Here is what the definition of posterization (dithering/banding/false contouring) is....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posterization

Quote:
Originally Posted by wikipedia View Post

Unwanted posterization, also known as banding, may occur when the color depth, sometimes called bit depth, is insufficient to accurately sample a continuous gradation of color tone. As a result, a continuous gradient appears as a series of discrete steps or bands of color — hence the name. When discussing fixed pixel displays, such as LCD and plasma televisions, this effect is referred to as false contouring.[1] The result may be compounded further by an optical illusion, called the Mach band illusion, in which each band appears to have an intensity gradient in the direction opposing the overall gradient. This problem may be resolved, in part, with dithering.

Why don't you start your reply explaining how this is not you asking about posterization (dithering/banding/false contouring)

Were you not aware that the more dithering you see is just the TV trying to hide false contouring? The only time you see a band is when the TV runs out of colors/graduations in the available dynamic palette AND the TV fails to dither it well. Dithering is how plasmas hide their contouring problems.

My point in the 1st place was to show anyone who has owned a 2011 panel wouldn't need to ask these questions. They would already have the experience. And yes the 2011 Panasonic do a lot of banding/dithering with a source that's not pristine. Unfortunately that is what most of us watch the majority of the time. I wasn't pleased with the amount of dithering the VT30 had from posterization, I'm hopeful this years 24k graduations will help alleviate some of it. But D-nice has said it won't matter, banding will be similar and dithering is worse on the ST30 so far.
post #81 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post

...Thread with a Poll
http://www.avforums.com/forums/plasm...-affected.html

Wow, that's a pretty significant poll, and plainly visible in normal content. I'd say you've presented enough evidence for me - design flaw, QC issue, who cares? Assorted gripes aside, I'm still quite happy with my Samsung 59D7000 - looking forward to hearing how the E series turns out.
post #82 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by AvidHiker View Post

Wow, that's a pretty significant poll, and plainly visible in normal content. I'd say you've presented enough evidence for me - design flaw, QC issue, who cares? Assorted gripes aside, I'm still quite happy with my Samsung 59D7000 - looking forward to hearing how the E series turns out.

Me too, the E8000 should be shipping anytime now.

sorry, for ruining this thread. Thanks for taking the time to read everything and comment.
post #83 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post

Lets review why you 1st called me a liar. You called me a liar saying you NEVER asked a calibrator about posterization (banding/false contouring/dithering) tehcnically speaking it's "color quantization" but I'm going to continue to use posterization for this discussion.

I asked about posterization. Posterization is not dithering. In fact, although they are both display flaws, they are only somewhat related.

Then you insisted, repeatedly, I asked about dithering which never happened. Now, you are trying to conflate two separate phenomena to make your point. I rest my case here because I have proven it. Stop raising this issue.
Quote:


This is YOU asking d-nice about posterization... Which is what BANDING/FALSE CONTOURING/DITHERING is on the Panasonic plasma.

Again, it's clear you have no idea what dithering is because, well, it's not banding or false contouring (those two are synonyms). I asked about false contouring because it's visible to normal people at normal viewing distances; dithering is typically only noticed by people who sit close. My Panasonic dithers up a storm; in 6 years of owning it, I've never seen the dither at viewing distance -- I need to walk up to it. When it false contours, I can see the error from 15 feet on my 50".
Quote:


Here is what the definition of posterization (dithering/banding/false contouring) is....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posterization

Wikipedia further proves my point and destroys yours. Here is the lone reference to dithering in the entry on posterization: "The result may be compounded further by an optical illusion, called the Mach band illusion, in which each band appears to have an intensity gradient in the direction opposing the overall gradient. This problem may be resolved, in part, with dithering."

So in other words, dithering used judiciously can be a fix for false contouring. I was asking about the Panasonic's issues with false contouring, not for an engineering lesson -- which I don't require -- on how they might fix those issues.

Excessive dithering in dark areas is a separate bugaboo of plasma televisions. It can be very annoying. I wasn't asking about it because it doesn't concern me. No amount of twisting the facts of what I was asking about changes (a) the correctness of my question (b) your lack of facts (c) you quoting someone else's reference to dithering and pretending it was mine.
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Why don't you start your reply explaining how this is not you asking about posterization (dithering/banding/false contouring)

I'm re-quoting this so people can see how little you have any idea what you are talking about.
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Were you not aware that the more dithering you see is just the TV trying to hide false contouring?

Were you not aware that I wasn't asking about dithering? I was asking about false contouring. I presumed D-Nice wouldn't have referenced false contouring in relation to tiny contours in dither areas, but rather he used the term to refer to actual instances of false contouring -- which occur on things like sunsets, for example.
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The only time you see a band is when the TV runs out of colors in the available dynamic palette AND the TV fails to dither it well. Dithering is how plasmas hide their contouring problems.

Dithering is a means to hide contouring problems, but again, your lack of knowledge is apparent. The TV has plenty of intermediate shades at this point to avoid false contouring in nearly all cases. Back when this was written: http://svconline.com/mag/avinstall_p...isplay_panels/, in 1999, there were literally not enough available shades, but that's no longer the case.

When false contouring occurs, it's because there are still errors in the processing that introduce it. You should read more here: http://alexandria.tue.nl/repository/books/644209.pdf

Most false contours on a modern plasma are not because there is a dearth of available shades, which is probably why the new additional shades on Panasonic's TVs are not much of a fix (per D-Nice). They are, instead, due to processing errors. With even 10-bit greyscale, if the TV could reliably pick out an intermediate shade to smooth transitions, you'd never see them.

And, please, stop this conversation.
post #84 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post


It's obvious that Samsung has no regard for QC across the board

I'd have to agree with this. I've had 3 64D7000, between the buzzing and dented, wavy bezels and backs none of them were of high build quality (Never had a peeler that I know of). What's the point of all the pretty aesthetics if the build quality is so cheap it ruins them? Just look at your D series bezel at an angle or in certain lighting and see all the dents and waves. It's just pathetic and cheap looking.

The PQ is wonderful, but the TV is so cheaply made, it's embarrassing. Anyone that owns a D series would be fooling themselves if they think the sets "look" high quality. Heck even the pics in the D7000 thread show the dented wavy bezel. Just looks pathetic. LG makes higher quality and better built sets.

Samsung put themselves in a hole in my home. Not due to lack of PQ, but lack of build quality. I don't like a $2500 item to look cheap as hell. Now if I see the 2012's are of a higher build quality my opinion may change.
post #85 of 96
What's the difference between the E6500 and the E550? The Amazon product comparison page makes it seem like it's just a swivel stand that separates the two:

http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-PN51E6...mparison_Chart
post #86 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Again, it's clear you have no idea what dithering is because, well, it's not banding or false contouring (those two are synonyms). I asked about false contouring because it's visible to normal people at normal viewing distances; dithering is typically only noticed by people who sit close.

I never said this. Like I said dithering is used to mask false contours.

At 12 feet I could see dithering on my 65" VT30 quite easily. And frequently.

I explained that dithering is used to hide false contouring quite clearly. Yet you chose to ignore that in the beginning of your post and say I didn't know what it was?

And no the banding happens because the color quantization algorithm and weighting is probably flawed that Panasonic uses. It's running out of bits (color/graduations) and it's not smart enough to realize to re-optimize the palette and try to dither it.

I don't have the time or energy to continue this. And frankly I just don't care.

Best of luck to you and best arrogance and arguing with others
post #87 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pothog View Post


I'd have to agree with this. I've had 3 64D7000, between the buzzing and dented, wavy bezels and backs none of them were of high build quality (Never had a peeler that I know of). What's the point of all the pretty aesthetics if the build quality is so cheap it ruins them? Just look at your D series bezel at an angle or in certain lighting and see all the dents and waves. It's just pathetic and cheap looking.

The PQ is wonderful, but the TV is so cheaply made, it's embarrassing. Anyone that owns a D series would be fooling themselves if they think the sets "look" high quality. Heck even the pics in the D7000 thread show the dented wavy bezel. Just looks pathetic. LG makes higher quality and better built sets.

Samsung put themselves in a hole in my home. Not due to lack of PQ, but lack of build quality. I don't like a $2500 item to look cheap as hell. Now if I see the 2012's are of a higher build quality my opinion may change.

That's really disappointing to hear. I really have my heart set on a PNxxE7000 or 8000, but if they wind up cheaply made like you describe, I'll have to pass.
post #88 of 96
The PN51E8000 shows pre-order everyehere except for a place called Paul's which show in-stock. Odd that only place shows it available. Does anybody know anything about Paul's?
post #89 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drivingrain View Post

The PN51E8000 shows pre-order everyehere except for a place called Paul's which show in-stock. Odd that only place shows it available. Does anybody know anything about Paul's?

Paul's is pretty legit. Amazon uses them often.

I expect most retailers will have it next week. Official release is Monday, I believe.

Any sacrificial lambs in here?
post #90 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest261 View Post

Paul's is pretty legit. Amazon uses them often.

To be clear, they use Amazon's "Fulfilled by Amazon" services. Amazon doesn't "use them"; they use Amazon and are listed on Amazon's web site regularly.

I agree they are pretty legit and when getting an item "Fulfilled by Amazon", you do get most of Amazon's guarantee policies (most, not all, because you can't complain to Amazon customer support if the normal remedies are insufficient; normal remedies are almost always sufficient, however).

Anyway, it's a technical point, but like you I believe, I would buy from them.
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