Originally Posted by Ethan Winer
I've been arguing for years that people should aim to hear what the mixing and mastering engineers heard.
But they obviously don't care about that. If they did, every audiophile would have extensive acoustic treatment.
Every audiophile has to do that or else they can't complain about distortion elsewhere? Where have these commandments been written?
You complain about Mike Lavigne in these posts. Have you seen his room? I have. He had it designed using a professional acoustician. I don't have my pictures of his room handy but here is a random one from the web:
You see the ceiling bass traps and diffusers around (let's not argue if they are right or wrong
Another person whose home I have been to is my partner in crime, Steve Williams:
I seem to recall him spending ~$20K on acoustic treatment and design.
So clearly the point is not lost on that community. If anything, they are far more aware of it than the typical consumer of audio equipment.
Arguing about infinitesimal amounts of distortion while ignoring the elephant in the room - peaks and nulls spanning 30+ dB - shows that most 'phooles have very poor priorities, and don't really care about high fidelity as much as they think they do.
To borrow a line from Arny, that is a myth
. Audiophiles care a great deal about that topic. On Whatsbestforum, we have one of the largest concentrations of acoustic experts. Anyone who is in the field has practically participated there. We have dedicated forums for folks like Art Nixon, yourself, etc.
Problem is, you all can't agree with yourselves what is the right answer
. If you did, everyone would follow. Honestly, that is the biggest issue around room acoustics and treatment. The experts don't sing the same song and then wonder why people get confused and go without. Or worse yet, slap fiberglass around thinking that is the solution.
When did I say that music quality should be downgraded? I might have said that 44/16 is adequate, but that's what I use to record in the first place. So do a lot of others.
And a lot more use higher resolution. For them, the customer wants that copy. For yours, they will accept 44/16 if that is what you used.
What the hell is analog sound? 3 percent distortion of analog tape? 5 percent distortion and <20 dB crosstalk at best from vinyl?
How much distortion is there when digital clips? Or the compressors used to avoid it clipping? I am not here to defend analog. You can see what I named my company in my signature
. But let's consider that recordings are done differently for analog domain and hence that alone, could contribute to their preference. If there are other euphoric reasons, I can't quantify them so please don't argue them with me
. Or get us into that topic. We should be able to discuss what makes digital great, without having to resort to what is different with analog.
That is a lie. I was told not to post anywhere but my own forum section.
You were *requested* to do that. We could have used forum tools to force that on you but we did not. Instead, we reached out to you in private in email, pleading for the sake of forum peace that you don't challenge people in every thread and every forum. What you wanted to say was told by you a hundred times. Repeated versions of it was not constructive especially when members thought you were more privileged than them give your "Technical Expert" title we had given you on WBF.
Between you and the other members, we thought you would be one to put down the sword, seeing how you were part of the "management team" with your own dedicated forum. At the same time, we reassured you that you could continue business as usual in your own dedicated area, including continuing those fights. But you chose to leave instead.
If you think any of this is a lie, I am happy to send you the email thread to you which I still have in my inbox.
The only reason my posts a few weeks ago in that other section weren't deleted is because the thread was about my own upcoming book!
It was about your book until you came in and said this: "I look in from time to time. But since I'm not allowed to express my opinions freely, I have little to post."
That is not a comment related to your book.
Steve even threatened to delete me from that thread until someone pointed out the hypocrisy of not allowing me to participate in a thread about my own book.
I do not want to post a link to WBF. If you believe this is the version of the events, you are welcome to link to it for everyone to read it. For now, this is Steve's public response:"Ethan
You and I both know that is far from the truth and unnecessary to post such knee jerk comments. Happy New Year to you and best of luck with your new book."
There is no threat in there.
Amir, I don't take people on.
Of course you did. You just post a thread on WBF whose only purpose was to challenge one individual: Mike. You see me take on people here but even I am above calling someone out to have a fist fight that way. You are in the industry and respected member of our technical community. You should not act like general membership let alone go past them in calling for a duel. But you did and we let it be.
I do call bullsh1t when I see it, but I always do so nicely, and I always explain why I think [whatever] is bullsh1t.
No dispute about either. You are a gentleman and a model of how to argue your point relative to others in the camp. We were hoping to make you even better by listening to a bit of wisdom from us. If you had been there and not left, you could have continued to spread your message both on room treatment and otherwise. Your hunger strike instead, served to do neither.
It is always others who are rude and insulting to me first.
How do you think Arny has been toward me? It doesn't mean I act like him if I am part of the management of the forum.
If you really wanted your forum to be a place for intelligent and civil discourse, you'd have banned the others who make trouble and call me wrong without ever explaining what is right.
Our goal on WBF is to use strong tools like banning as a last resort. Instead, we prefer to talk to them offline as we did with you and try to get people to act like adults and realize this is just a hobby. It is not easy for people to realize that. I am guilty of the same when I am on the other side of fence I am sure.
The differentiation we created on WBF was around people treating each other well first, discussing audio and other areas of interest second. We would not let anyone do 10% of what Arny is doing here example relative to calling me rookie in every other post. There is no goal for us to dictate what is the right opinion about audio any more than it is on AVS. We are the host and the rules are cordial conduct first. If that is not valued, then there are plenty of other forums where food fights and personal attacks are allowed.
This is the real issue. People like Mike Lavigne are ignorant and arrogant, and deep down they know they can't defend their position. I imagine you know this, and realize how ridiculous was Mike's list of "what digital is unable to capture." Yet he was allowed to state his nonsense, and I was not allowed to correct him. Truly pathetic.
How far should that go Ethan? As you, I think Arny's explanation of science to be wanting. Should that be cause to get him banned from AVS? Should I be the judge of that you think? Where does it say in AVS forum that you have to be right about audio to post here? Where does it say on WBF the same thing?
Sure, but if one distortion is 100 times larger than another, which it is in this case, only someone ignorant about human perception would believe the smaller distortion matters.
So explain it to them and then let them be.