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Deadline Has Been Set (and Re-Set...) Theater Build - Page 6

post #151 of 534
Thread Starter 
Had enough time today to frame up the riser.

IMG_3792.jpg

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2x12 frame with 2x8 spans 12" OC. I still need to shim in a few places and tie them together, but they aren't going anywhere.

Kid free Halloween party tonight, so hopefully I'll feel like working on it again tomorrow...rolleyes.gif

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #152 of 534
Interesting - why did you go with 2x8s for the span? Are you bracing them in anyway? Are you going to do the same for your riser?
post #153 of 534
Keeping the spanners less than the full height allows you to use the riser as a bass trap, I would put a mid span support to avoid any bounce.

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post #154 of 534
I used two layers of 2x6 crossed for my riser/basstrap.
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Definitely no bounce:D
post #155 of 534
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blipszyc View Post

Interesting - why did you go with 2x8s for the span? Are you bracing them in anyway? Are you going to do the same for your riser?
BIG already gave the answer, but yes, the riser will double as a bass trap. I hadn't thought about bracing them, as the plan didn't call for it and they seem quite stable when I walk across them. After seeing BIGs picture above, I am now thinking about it.

I will not be doing the same for the stage as the joist spaces will be filled with sand.
post #156 of 534
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post

Keeping the spanners less than the full height allows you to use the riser as a bass trap, I would put a mid span support to avoid any bounce.
IMG_8422.jpg
Thanks for the suggestion BIG. I definitely have enough scraps that I could use for a mid support. Quick question for you since you've done a good number of risers. What's the best method you've found for keeping the insulation from falling through to the bottom?
post #157 of 534
if it has a paper backing you can staple to the top edge. If seen some say it doesn't matter if it falls, I'm not sure of the science one way or another.
post #158 of 534
Acoustically, it doesn't matter if it falls. Cavity resonance is reduced whether the insulation is low, middle or high in the cavity.

EDIT: This is true for transmission loss, however when a cavity is being optimized as an absorber I'd ask Dennis.
Edited by Ted White - 10/28/12 at 6:25pm
post #159 of 534
I'm not concerned about the effect on cavity resonance it is the impact on the effectiveness as a bass trap. My gut says it is not an issue, but I've seen professional plans with an air gap at the bottom connecting all joist bays.
post #160 of 534
Shouldn't the cavity be completely filled with insulation?
post #161 of 534
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post

I'm not concerned about the effect on cavity resonance it is the impact on the effectiveness as a bass trap. My gut says it is not an issue, but I've seen professional plans with an air gap at the bottom connecting all joist bays.

Never assume the pros know what they are doing. It should be completely filled. The density if the insulation used is the key, though. And it's different desities for glasswool and rockwool, to complicate it further...
post #162 of 534
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightlord View Post

Never assume the pros know what they are doing...
That statement seems counter intuitive to me. After all, they are pros/experts for a reason. I do appreciate differing points of view, as I like the discussions that they provide. Helps everyone to learn. However, the pros I have talked to and who have contributed to my build definitely know what they are doing, and I wouldn't be as far as I am without their input.
post #163 of 534
I have to say, we see our fair share of isolation designs by a host of pros, and sadly many are just flatly poor designs. So I think it's good to get some background education on these things so as to be better able to sniff snake oil.
post #164 of 534
The Pro I cited was our resident Guru.
post #165 of 534
Thread Starter 
Exactly my point. By pro, I'm not talking about Gary Contractor from down the street when it comes to HT related questions. I have done my homework in that area and know who to trust and who to take with a grain of salt. My layout is from Dennis. Sound isolation from Ted. Additional info gleaned from BIG and some other reputable posters on here. There is a wealth of knowledge on this forum, and I am grateful for everyone who has helped answer my questions along the way. I'm sure there will be more...wink.gif
post #166 of 534
So your plan calls for the bottom 4" of your riser to be free of insulation? Is this designed as a pressure absorber with holes cut out of the platform near the rear wall corners?
post #167 of 534
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 235 View Post

So your plan calls for the bottom 4" of your riser to be free of insulation? Is this designed as a pressure absorber with holes cut out of the platform near the rear wall corners?
That is correct. Designed to function as a bass trap.
post #168 of 534
Quote:
Originally Posted by GWCR View Post

That statement seems counter intuitive to me. After all, they are pros/experts for a reason. I do appreciate differing points of view, as I like the discussions that they provide. Helps everyone to learn. However, the pros I have talked to and who have contributed to my build definitely know what they are doing, and I wouldn't be as far as I am without their input.

Pro does not mean expert - pro means they do it for a living. Expert is another matter. Just like amateur does not mean bad, it means 'doing it out of love' instead of making your living on it.
There are plenty of amateurs around that knows things a lot better than many pros... forums like this one is the definite proof of that.

Counter intuitive? Of course, that's part of the sale for sure. Assuming that since you're paying for it - it will be better (or faster) than you would yourself.

But if you don't know yourself - how can you judge? Some pro might have you install a LEDE kind of room and may be quite good at building LEDE rooms, but it could still be the case that for your particular room, it might not be close to the optimum acoustic build. But as long as it gets better than what you had, the pro behaving like he knows his stuff and it costs sufficiently enough - you'll have plenty of placebo effect in enjoying the room for sure. wink.gif

For comparison - how many pros do we have out there designing loudspeakers - and how many of them is actually close to ok? And how many are sold on looks and price tag?

A lot of acoustic pros have their own style which they try to adapt to whatever room they get... sticking to the same products to use etc. But it would be different to as a number of them and compare their
suggestions - I'm sure you'd get quite different suggestions. You might still be happy with any of the resulting rooms, though. But it does lead to the question whether they really knew the outcome beforehand or it's more a matter of "it worked of this time too". Not claiming this applies to your particular set of experts, of course - how would I know? This is just a general statement.

Myself, I brought in the guy who designed the loudspeakers I will be using and I have seen a number of his room designs before and they are quite varied. Had I done the room myself after having looked around at previous designs, I would have done some things I now didn't have to after he crunched the numbers and tested the stiffness of existing walls&ceiling. So he actually saved his own fee in just stopping me from doing some acoustic fixes! And he definitely knows where his speakers benefits from having absorption and/or diffusion put up relative to the listening position(s).

I've never seen any bass-absorbers with a free passage in them anywhere before, so while I don't claim it can't work - I very much would like an explanation of what would be the benefit in physical terms.
It intuitively feels as if someone though it was needed for the sound to make it all the way in there... (sorry!)
post #169 of 534
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightlord View Post

Pro does not mean expert - pro means they do it for a living. Expert is another matter.
That is a true statement. However, the "pro" that isn't also an expert in their field won't be around very long. Their industry, peer and customer reviews will make sure of that. Capitalism at its finest.

Quote:
Counter intuitive? Of course, that's part of the sale for sure. Assuming that since you're paying for it - it will be better (or faster) than you would yourself. But if you don't know yourself - how can you judge?
Like most people, I don't have the time, resources or desire to become the defacto subject matter expert on every project I undertake. I research to get a solid understanding of the concepts necessary to complete the project, and seek out those who have demonstrated time and again (from customer/industry reviews) that they are experts in their field. I don't respond to those trying to sell me something out of the blue. I have approached everyone I have decided to work with, based on my own research and the reviews they receive.

Quote:
But it does lead to the question whether they really knew the outcome beforehand or it's more a matter of "it worked of this time too". Not claiming this applies to your particular set of experts, of course - how would I know? This is just a general statement.
If you do your homework on your particular set of experts up front, then you won't have this level of cynisism and distrust. If you do, then you probably aren't ready to work with anyone other than yourself.

Quote:
For comparison - how many pros do we have out there designing loudspeakers - and how many of them is actually close to ok? And how many are sold on looks and price tag?
Quote:
Myself, I brought in the guy who designed the loudspeakers I will be using and I have seen a number of his room designs before and they are quite varied. Had I done the room myself after having looked around at previous designs, I would have done some things I now didn't have to after he crunched the numbers and tested the stiffness of existing walls&ceiling. So he actually saved his own fee in just stopping me from doing some acoustic fixes! And he definitely knows where his speakers benefits from having absorption and/or diffusion put up relative to the listening position(s).
Then I'm sure they will be at least close to ok. Hopefully you weren't just sold on looks and price tag from the number of his designs you have seen...wink.gif

Quote:
I've never seen any bass-absorbers with a free passage in them anywhere before, so while I don't claim it can't work - I very much would like an explanation of what would be the benefit in physical terms. It intuitively feels as if someone though it was needed for the sound to make it all the way in there... (sorry!)
This is a concept that has been used numerous times by many on this forum. Do a search for riser bass trap and it should get you starated on your quest for more knowledge in this area. As for me, I will continue to trust those who have proven they know what they are talking about. My deadline for completion is much sooner than 2017...
post #170 of 534
Quote:
Originally Posted by GWCR View Post

That is a true statement. However, the "pro" that isn't also an expert in their field won't be around very long. Their industry, peer and customer reviews will make sure of that. Capitalism at its finest.

Audio in particular doesn't seem to obey those rules, nor that you should be able to prove your claims. biggrin.gif But I wish you had been correct.
Quote:
If you do your homework on your particular set of experts up front, then you won't have this level of cynisism and distrust. If you do, then you probably aren't ready to work with anyone other than yourself.

Well, to start with there's probably more people to choose amongst in Los Angeles alone than in my entire country, that yields some differences.

Besides that... I rather pick the words "healthy scepticism"wink.gif
Quote:
Then I'm sure they will be at least close to ok. Hopefully you weren't just sold on looks and price tag from the number of his designs you have seen...wink.gif

If they weren't ok, I'd be going for B&W 800/802s, they are the closest in performance I could find around here. More money going into looks on those, though.
Quote:
This is a concept that has been used numerous times by many on this forum. Do a search for riser bass trap and it should get you starated on your quest for more knowledge in this area.

Well, I'm more used to rooms made for 2-channel performance, so that's the kind of rooms I have explored elsewhere.
Quote:
As for me, I will continue to trust those who have proven they know what they are talking about. My deadline for completion is much sooner than 2017...

So would I be if I had the money for a 140" Clearpix2 screen and a 4K-projector, but I'm saving for those and that will take a few years if the prices don't drop. I did start my temporary projector for the first time yesterday to figure out where in the back wall it has to go. smile.gif
post #171 of 534
Quote:
Originally Posted by GWCR View Post

Thanks for the suggestion BIG. I definitely have enough scraps that I could use for a mid support. Quick question for you since you've done a good number of risers. What's the best method you've found for keeping the insulation from falling through to the bottom?

Not sure if you were looking for more suggestions to keep the insulation off the ground, but I used insulation support wire (made for supporting flex duct and insulation in overhead joist space). It worked very well.

Here is a like to the HD product...
http://www.homedepot.com/buy/building-materials/accessories/simpson-strong-tie-16-in-oc-insulation-supports-100-pack--is16-r100.html#.UI7FZ8XA8Yk
post #172 of 534
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightlord View Post

So would I be if I had the money for a 140" Clearpix2 screen and a 4K-projector, but I'm saving for those and that will take a few years if the prices don't drop. I did start my temporary projector for the first time yesterday to figure out where in the back wall it has to go. smile.gif
Sounds like you're going to have a nice space. Let me know if you decide to post a build thread. Would like to follow your progress.
post #173 of 534
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by brausch View Post

Not sure if you were looking for more suggestions to keep the insulation off the ground, but I used insulation support wire (made for supporting flex duct and insulation in overhead joist space). It worked very well.
Here is a like to the HD product...
http://www.homedepot.com/buy/building-materials/accessories/simpson-strong-tie-16-in-oc-insulation-supports-100-pack--is16-r100.html#.UI7FZ8XA8Yk
Hey Brian. That is the type of thing I was thinking about. Just couldn't picture it. Thanks for the link.

BTW. Great game by the Clones this weekend. Looks like we might only have one Bowl rep from the state this year...mad.gif
post #174 of 534
Quote:
Originally Posted by GWCR View Post

Sounds like you're going to have a nice space. Let me know if you decide to post a build thread. Would like to follow your progress.

Thanks, I hope so. It's not going to be as designed as a lot of people here have. We don't build houses the same way here, so there's not carpenters around that can do the kind of woodwork I see in the threads here. At least not that's available at normal rates. And I'm not skilled and patient enough myself. And honestly, I don't care if a board is slightly chipped or slightly off level - I want to use my room for film, music and games, not to adore my ceiling. biggrin.gif

Also, most people seems to be building rooms from scratch and can keep them empty, I have to constamtly shift the chairs, electronics and things going into the machinist's room in the end around, so it does not make good pictures.... So I think I'll avoid getting bashed by not making a thread. biggrin.gif

Room is 14.67'x18.67' with a floating floor and will have three seats in an arch in front and two separate in the back on a 12" riser/basstrap. Back wall will be acoustically 'transparent' 19" thick stuffed with insulation as an additional basstrap. Front wall is partially dampened and the sidewalls feature diffusion up to ear level of front row. From there on we will not decide until it's done and any remaining flutter echo has been measured. Outer walls of the theater room+the machinist room are masoned light concrete blocks with a single layer gypsum board (dual layer would put the resonance frequency wrong and I'm not soundproofing as it's a standalone building). So not a single drop of green glue. wink.gif
Edited by Nightlord - 10/29/12 at 12:43pm
post #175 of 534
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightlord View Post

Thanks, I hope so. It's not going to be as designed as a lot of people here have. We don't build houses the same way here, so there's not carpenters around that can do the kind of woodwork I see in the threads here. At least not that's available at normal rates. And I'm not skilled and patient enough myself. And honestly, I don't care if a board is slightly chipped or slightly off level - I want to use my room for film, music and games, not to adore my ceiling. biggrin.gif
I hear you there. If someone is looking for the inevitable flaw in the drywall or woodwork, that isn't someone I want in my room. tongue.gif

Quote:
Also, most people seems to be building rooms from scratch and can keep them empty, I have to constamtly shift the chairs, electronics and things going into the machinist's room in the end around, so it does not make good pictures.... So I think I'll avoid getting bashed by not making a thread. biggrin.gif
Nothing wrong with a little clutter in the pictures. I've been officially on this site for over 3 years, and lurked for another year or so before that. I haven't really seen any bashing of pics or spaces to speak of. Folks on here are more interested in how others transform whatever space they have into the room that works best for them, and sharing what they've learned along the way. I'd encourage you to start a thread. You'll be able to get a lot more feedback that way.

Quote:
Room is 14.67'x18.67' with a floating floor and will have three seats in an arch in front and two separate in the back on a 12" riser/basstrap. Back wall will be acoustically 'transparent' 19" thick stuffed with insulation as an additional basstrap. Front wall is partially dampened and the sidewalls feature diffusion up to ear level of front row. From there on we will not decide until it's done and any remaining flutter echo has been measured.
Again, sounds like you have a nice space to work with. Would love to see pics/drawings of your layout (in your own build thread of course wink.gif)
post #176 of 534
Quote:
Originally Posted by GWCR View Post

Again, sounds like you have a nice space to work with. Would love to see pics/drawings of your layout (in your own build thread of course wink.gif)

I'll consider it. Yes, enough off-topic in your thread now.
post #177 of 534
Thread Starter 
Started running the romex through the riser last night. Wasn't all that motivated so only got half way done. Nothing picture worthy.

Wow. That may be the most boring update I've posted. My apologies to anyone who took the time to read it...tongue.gif
post #178 of 534
Thread Starter 
I forgot about one exciting update. Ordered the screen yesterday from Jamestown! 120" wide viewable with the SeymourAV Center Stage XD screen. Current wait time is 15 business days, so I hope it will be here by Thanksgiving...
post #179 of 534
Nice! I ordered a Jamestown screen with the Seymour XD material (130" wide 2.35:1) as well. Did you go 16:9 or scope? Ordered mine back on the 10th with the hopes that I get it in plenty of time to have it up by Thanksgiving. I think he told me 15-20 business days when I ordered. If that's true it should show up sometime next week. cool.gif
post #180 of 534
Thread Starter 
Hey vanice. I went scope (2.35:1). I hooked up an old projector from work this weekend and threw in a scope movie to get a feel for the size. I was initially thinking 16:9, but now that I've seen the scope AR on the front wall it really fills up the space nice. Now I just need to get everything else ready for when the screen gets here! oh, and order the PJ, and the sub, and the receiver...
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