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Bang for Buck Large Room Bass - Page 2

post #31 of 182
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oztech View Post

Y

You keep saying that the movie industry can't provide deeper bass than this supposed 25Hz limit and then reference movie theaters were budget constraints would keep them from investing in what it would take to pressurize that area with sub 20Hz thats not the same thing as its not in the actual movie when for years there have been charts showing there is material below 20Hz and you can bet it was not done by accident it spurs sales.

You just made my point. If professional movie theaters can't deliver that experience (even in THX approved theaters!) then it's obvious you are putting together home rigs that are not just exceeding professional movie theaters, but artificially producing (more like exaggerating) sound that was never meant to be played in a professional setting. Therefore, it's common sense that if you find content that can't be played by any theaters, then it's ACCIDENTALLY in the soundtrack and not intentionally put there.

You guys are acting like your rigs with big bass is justified by a false assumption that somehow the original creator of that soundtrack intended you to be blasting sub-20Hz bass at levels emulating an earthquake. Sorry. That's a FALSE assumption.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade but you guys need to be REAL with yourselves about what you're really doing here. You are producing an ARTIFICIAL experience with extreme gear and there is NOTHING wrong with that. What is WRONG is that you're trying to convince the average enthusiast that this is the way it 'should' be for proper soundtrack reproduction. It's not. And THAT is where I have issue with your rhetoric.
post #32 of 182
post #33 of 182
Timothy 91 in order to win an argument such as yours you need to provide a link that would prove your point you just can't just state things as science without proof.
There are subsonic filters on theater equipment for a reason they can't play the content with the installed equipment its not that the content is not there.
post #34 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post

You just made my point. If professional movie theaters can't deliver that experience (even in THX approved theaters!) then it's obvious you are putting together home rigs that are not just exceeding professional movie theaters, but artificially producing (more like exaggerating) sound that was never meant to be played in a professional setting. Therefore, it's common sense that if you find content that can't be played by any theaters, then it's ACCIDENTALLY in the soundtrack and not intentionally put there.

You guys are acting like your rigs with big bass is justified by a false assumption that somehow the original creator of that soundtrack intended you to be blasting sub-20Hz bass at levels emulating an earthquake. Sorry. That's a FALSE assumption.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade but you guys need to be REAL with yourselves about what you're really doing here. You are producing an ARTIFICIAL experience with extreme gear and there is NOTHING wrong with that. What is WRONG is that you're trying to convince the average enthusiast that this is the way it 'should' be for proper soundtrack reproduction. It's not. And THAT is where I have issue with your rhetoric.

Todd-AO studios mixed the soundtrack for BlackHawk Down. They used 22 BagEnd subwoofers to reproduce the 8Hz content in the ***king Irene scene.

The Trinity Church in New York had a Thigpen Rotary installed temporarily. The Thigpen is designed to deliver 110 db from 2Hz to 25Hz. A few lucky people have the rotary at home.

http://www.rotarywoofer.com/howitworks.htm

Quite a few people here are interested in response to at least 10Hz. DIY can do this pretty easily and for not a lot of money.
post #35 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post

You just made my point. If professional movie theaters can't deliver that experience (even in THX approved theaters!) then it's obvious you are putting together home rigs that are not just exceeding professional movie theaters, but artificially producing (more like exaggerating) sound that was never meant to be played in a professional setting. Therefore, it's common sense that if you find content that can't be played by any theaters, then it's ACCIDENTALLY in the soundtrack and not intentionally put there.

You guys are acting like your rigs with big bass is justified by a false assumption that somehow the original creator of that soundtrack intended you to be blasting sub-20Hz bass at levels emulating an earthquake. Sorry. That's a FALSE assumption.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade but you guys need to be REAL with yourselves about what you're really doing here. You are producing an ARTIFICIAL experience with extreme gear and there is NOTHING wrong with that. What is WRONG is that you're trying to convince the average enthusiast that this is the way it 'should' be for proper soundtrack reproduction. It's not. And THAT is where I have issue with your rhetoric.

If it wasn't to be intended, wouldn't the soundtrack have a HPF? The picture quality of the top calibrated plasmas, lcd tvs, and projectors exceeds anything I have seen in theaters besides the size of the picture. I've heard many speakers that don't provide the coloration of theater speakers also. The one thing I enjoy about theaters are the large room acoustics. Are our tvs and speakers also producing an artificial experience that is not intended or is it that theaters have audio visual limitations due to the large rooms?
post #36 of 182
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oztech View Post

Timothy 91 in order to win an argument such as yours you need to provide a link that would prove your point you just can't just state things as science without proof.
There are subsonic filters on theater equipment for a reason they can't play the content with the installed equipment its not that the content is not there.

The content is there by accident. It's not intentional by the studio. If studios intended these abnormal and difficult to produce frequencies to be present and produced, you would see professional THX rated theaters geared for it. They're not.
post #37 of 182
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwarny View Post

If it wasn't to be intended, wouldn't the soundtrack have a HPF?

Really? Do you have to ask that? If the equipment used by the pros doesn't produce the sounds, then why is it necessary for a filter at the mastering level? While it would make sense, it's pretty clear the soundtrack producers either overlooked it or didn't bother wasting time filtering it. Either way, it's a moot question.
post #38 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post

The content is there by accident. It's not intentional by the studio. If studios intended these abnormal and difficult to produce frequencies to be present and produced, you would see professional THX rated theaters geared for it. They're not.

How do you know? Oh, right, you seem to be basing your assumptions on some photographs. From another recent thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post

All the Pro THX movie mastering houses I've seen pictures of lack the ability to get much below 25Hz, let alone below 20Hz.

Hmmmm
post #39 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post

The content is there by accident. It's not intentional by the studio. If studios intended these abnormal and difficult to produce frequencies to be present and produced, you would see professional THX rated theaters geared for it. They're not.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1333462


Lots of movie scenes with sub 20hz content. Audio mixers don't do things by accident.

Look there is much more to creating a subwoofer that sound good to slapping a big 18" driver into a big box.

Not saying these subs you referenced in the thread are not good for home theater, but you cannot just look at specs and driver sizes.
post #40 of 182
How did the argument change into bass below 20hz?

I thought the OP's point was that pro audio subs can give you plenty of bass down TO 20hz and now all of a sudden it's a below 20 hz bass being intentional or unintentional.

Which argument is it? Or did I miss something...
post #41 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post

I myself consider 25Hz to be all you need for home theater and that the original studios often don't use equipment capable of a usable 20Hz(and lower) output.

good for you! - buy those ebay pa subs. You'll find yourself a bit frustrated when you can't even hit 25hz to your liking. You'll find the sub breaks up under the duress of LFE in the next action movie you watch when you decide to turn it up. It sounds like from the experiences you'd described in the next quote that you like it loud! Great! --- you'll be hearing some obnoxious and loud popping and crackling from those drivers in no time.


Quote:


producers of movie soundtracks know that the VAST majority of theater systems can't go below 25Hz (hell even 30Hz). So, I don't know why anyone would worry so much about 20Hz (and lower) production. It might be 'cool' to 'feel' added bass, but you can buy bass shakers for that or simply build a hollow/elevated floor people can feel the bass through.

yes, they do know the average household can't reproduce these effects - but that doesn't mean they don't have systems at home that are capable of ULF and enjoy it as hobby enthusiasts like the rest of us.

Quote:


I have heard pro DJ subs at shops selling the gear pump out bass so strong and deep, it defeats ANY home subs I've ever heard in my life (perhaps that pro gear was of higher quality than the gear I listed above). Including many car subs. (And car subs have an advantage of being in an enclosed car with it's listeners within mere feet).

Then you haven't heard enough "home subs". What is the best home sub you've heard BTW? JTR Captivators and Orbit Shifters give me the same feeling inside my house as being in my old hatchback with a couple of Infinity Kappa Perfect drivers powered by a Rockford Fosgate Power 800a2 amp -- but the JTRs are doing it in a 3500 cubic foot theater. The feel is different too between PA subs and Home Theater subs. PA subs give you a thump in the chest, while capable Home Theater subs with the ability to produce the lower frequencies do that chest thump --- plus vibrate your pant legs, chair, walls, etc. If I have time tonight I'll take a quick video clip of some test tones and show you what 19hz with authority does in my theater room. Oddly enough the same thing used to happen with my old projector screen at 16hz -- new projector screen - 19hz. At any rate - you aren't going to see or feel the same thing at 25hz and up.

Quote:


I have attempted to put subs which match many on your list above in a large auditorium and it can't produce ANYTHING of substance

Which subs have you tried that match "many" on my list?

Quote:


yet DJ gear like I listed, fills that same auditorium/room with very usable bass (certainly not at 20Hz/25Hz though but in a normal/large living room/den, those DJ subs can produce plenty of usable 25Hz bass and even some 20Hz bass, to balance the louder frequencies it produces at 40Hz+, simply use an EQ to turn those down).

--- wrong application again -- use home theater subs for home theater -- use PA subs for auditoriums.

no they can't produce plenty of usable bass at 20-25hz when down a dozen or two dB in a auditorium sized space.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post

Wait, wait. You mean you ran a competition on bass and used a subjective "score" and didn't actually use an SPL meter/analyzer for reference? How can I know this test was legit without real science involved?

Running off again at the mouth again without reading first --- Apparently you still haven't read the link I provided. Here it is again...please take a casual glance at least...The first page was littered with graphs and spl measurements as well as value added subjective voting impressions - showing multiple people stating the PA subs don't dig deep.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1335139

The actual measurements captured with mics, spl meters, REW, and laptops were in tandem with subjective impressions, which are also a big part of these events. This collective gathering of both subjective and objective data was due to a strict shortage of NASA robots that would have run the event solely gathering quantitative data.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post

Ok. Here's the deal. You are obviously talking about using subwoofers to do extreme things in relatively meaningless bass ranges that aren't intended by the original movie soundtrack producers.
Sorry, but most enthusiasts simply don't need to go to that extreme.

I'm telling you Tim, from lots of experience, the difference between a sub that plays to 25hz and a sub that plays very strong to 15 - 18hz is the difference between just enjoying a movie and mindlessly listening to a sub, and having your jaw drop to the floor and finding yourself completely wrapped up in the hobby. Anybody would recognize the difference - not just the over zealous 'enthusiast'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leninGHOLA View Post

Auditor has 2 accounts, this is the more aggressive personality

ha

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tim,

Buy those two PA subs on ebay --- put your money where your mouth is. Give them a shot, and report back. Your interest and curiosity reminds me of myself a few years back --- if you had read my PA subwoofer thread I linked a few posts back - you'd agree --- I was originally on the same page with high hopes for "off the shelf PA subwoofer" for use in home theater duty - the idea just doesn't hold water.
post #42 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post


Todd-AO studios mixed the soundtrack for BlackHawk Down. They used 22 BagEnd subwoofers to reproduce the 8Hz content in the ***king Irene scene.

The Trinity Church in New York had a Thigpen Rotary installed temporarily. The Thigpen is designed to deliver 110 db from 2Hz to 25Hz. A few lucky people have the rotary at home.

http://www.rotarywoofer.com/howitworks.htm

Quite a few people here are interested in response to at least 10Hz. DIY can do this pretty easily and for not a lot of money.

This ^^^^^ is what I would call OWNED. Well done SB...
post #43 of 182
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

Todd-AO studios mixed the soundtrack for BlackHawk Down. They used 22 BagEnd subwoofers to reproduce the 8Hz content in the ***king Irene scene.

The Trinity Church in New York had a Thigpen Rotary installed temporarily. The Thigpen is designed to deliver 110 db from 2Hz to 25Hz. A few lucky people have the rotary at home.

http://www.rotarywoofer.com/howitworks.htm

Quite a few people here are interested in response to at least 10Hz. DIY can do this pretty easily and for not a lot of money.

I want some kind of link or other info showing that a studio setup 22 bagend subwoofers for the very purpose of producing 8Hz in the sountrack. I did a cursory google search myself and found nothing to support this claim either 2 years ago when I first read the claim on this board and just now. There is no evidence that this is the case.

Again, if THX rated professional theaters don't do loud/usable 20Hz sound reproduction, it's simply not part of the intended experience.

You talk about a church having a device for producing incredible bass, but what MOVIE THEATER exactly has this? Relevance?
post #44 of 182
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ratm View Post

This ^^^^^ is what I would call OWNED. Well done SB...

That is what you call UNSUPPORTED and when I can't find any information on this claim, it's the original person who claimed something FALSE who gets OWNED. Talk about getting owned? By requiring proof and sticking to FACTS I owned both of you and win in the end.
post #45 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post

I want some kind of link or other info showing that a studio setup 22 bagend subwoofers for the very purpose of producing 8Hz in the sountrack. I did a cursory google search myself and found nothing to support this claim either 2 years ago when I first read the claim on this board and just now. There is no evidence that this is the case.

Again, if THX rated professional theaters don't do loud/usable 20Hz sound reproduction, it's simply not part of the intended experience.

You talk about a church having a device for producing incredible bass, but what MOVIE THEATER exactly has this? Relevance?

http://www.hometheater.com/content/w...i-bag-end-s21e

Quote:


One last point: If you've got the dough and real estate to spare, don't shrug off the sub-20Hz content I've shown in the reference waterfall plots as unintended artifactssay, scraps of subway rumble or HVAC noisethat somehow slipped through the filters during the mixing process. The content is program-related and meant to be there. So, okay, as a hardware matter, how did the engineers at Todd-AO who snagged an Academy Award for Best Sound for Black Hawk Down monitor all that gut-twisting infrasonic contentall those rumblings I've mentioned that lie just beyond the reach of even refrigerator-sized subs? They used big Bag End subwoofers22 of 'em.

You owe somebody an apology...
post #46 of 182
Will repeat from the quote above:

Quote:


The content is program-related and meant to be there.

Again, it is not there by accident.
post #47 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post

That is what you call UNSUPPORTED and when I can't find any information on this claim, it's the original person who claimed something FALSE who gets OWNED. Talk about getting owned? By requiring proof and sticking to FACTS I owned both of you and win in the end.



Dude. It's an okay at best bass system and nobody is interested. Get over it.
post #48 of 182
Guys, let's stop posting here. He's obviously just craving attention. We (everyone but him) can agree to disagree...even though we (everyone but him) are correct.
post #49 of 182
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Then you haven't heard enough "home subs". What is the best home sub you've heard BTW? JTR Captivators and Orbit Shifters give me the same feeling inside my house as being in my old hatchback with a couple of Infinity Kappa Perfect drivers powered by a Rockford Fosgate Power 800a2 amp -- but the JTRs are doing it in a 3500 cubic foot theater. The feel is different too between PA subs and Home Theater subs. PA subs give you a thump in the chest, while capable Home Theater subs with the ability to produce the lower frequencies do that chest thump --- plus vibrate your pant legs, chair, walls, etc. If I have time tonight I'll take a quick video clip of some test tones and show you what 19hz with authority does in my theater room. Oddly enough the same thing used to happen with my old projector screen at 16hz -- new projector screen - 19hz. At any rate - you aren't going to see or feel the same thing at 25hz and up.

I'm not denying that ultra-deep bass that is ultra-loud can be cool, but it's not intended nor is it even necessary for most people to drop their jaws at the output done by those 18" DJ subs.

Quote:


Running off again at the mouth again without reading first --- Apparently you still haven't read the link I provided. Here it is again...please take a casual glance at least...The first page was littered with graphs and spl measurements as well as value added subjective voting impressions - showing multiple people stating the PA subs don't dig deep.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1335139

I went to the link and cannot find any SPL readings on any of the subs. If you would please provide for me the SPL readings they came up with on those comparable 18" DJ subs in the test. I would be interested. All I can find on that page are opinions, not hard numbers.

[quote]The actual measurements captured with mics, spl meters, REW, and laptops were in tandem with subjective impressions, which are also a big part of these events. This collective gathering of both subjective and objective data was due to a strict shortage of NASA robots that would have run the event solely gathering quantitative data.[quote]

Please show me where the data is because it's not right up front on that page like you say and I have limited time to search through the text as I'm at work at the moment and only have moments at a time to post on here.
post #50 of 182
Timothy, are you saying that bass from the mid 30's down to 20hz is not intentional?

I know you are saying that bass form 20hz down is unintentional, but I just want to clarify.

Both arguments are wrong, I just think one argument is more ridiculously wrong than the other. Not trying to be mean, and I wish you were right. If you were I could have kept my Cewin Vega sub (about 5 subs ago...) that I bought in 1997.
post #51 of 182
I will say this. And I am sure some folks will not like it, but I do think people place too much emphasis on the sub 20hz bass on this and other forums. Don't get me wrong, I don't blame people for wanting to have a system that plays that low, as clearly there is content out there, but at the end of the day the higher frequency ranges are going to get far more content. So I would tend to think, when buying a sub, folks would not focus so much on how well the sub handles sub 20hz bass, and are focusing even more on the 25hz range and up.
post #52 of 182
Timothy. you cant be serious. this forum is full of real science disproving what you say. you pull info out of your butt saying studios dont put sub 25Hz stuff into movies on purpose with no proof what so ever and yet you want others to prove thier statements? these sound producers know EXACTLY what they are mixing in.

stop trolling. buy your Ebay/meth-head/club-kid subs and go blast your 50Hz stuff all till those things burn out.
post #53 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post

The content is there by accident. It's not intentional by the studio. If studios intended these abnormal and difficult to produce frequencies to be present and produced, you would see professional THX rated theaters geared for it. They're not.

Hi Timothy. you might want to read some articles about one of the famous academy award winning movie sound designers in the industry. His name is Randy Thom. You can find some of the articles here. He intentionally has ULF in some of his movies. He intentionally puts ULF in movies even if the theaters can not reproduce them.
post #54 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

buy your ebay/meth-head/club-kid subs and go blast your 50hz stuff all till those things burn out.

hahahahahahah
post #55 of 182
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1333462


Lots of movie scenes with sub 20hz content. Audio mixers don't do things by accident.

That is simply not true. Plenty of audio mixers miss or don't pay attention to specifics in many sounds. In a movie production you might mixe 10's of thousands of sounds in the making of it.
post #56 of 182
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hometheatergeek View Post

Hi Timothy. you might want to read some articles about one of the famous academy award winning movie sound designers in the industry. His name is Randy Thom. You can find some of the articles here. He intentionally has ULF in some of his movies. He intentionally puts ULF in movies even if the theaters can not reproduce them.

Again, the fact that professional theaters don't produce them is all you need to know. The rest is moot. Putting ULF sound into a film without the ability for your audience to experience it is dumb. Period.
post #57 of 182
lol. You are the one claiming the ULF content is there by mistake or accident - prove it.
post #58 of 182
Thread Starter 
Quote:


One last point: If you've got the dough and real estate to spare, don't shrug off the sub-20Hz content I've shown in the reference waterfall plots as unintended artifactssay, scraps of subway rumble or HVAC noisethat somehow slipped through the filters during the mixing process. The content is program-related and meant to be there. So, okay, as a hardware matter, how did the engineers at Todd-AO who snagged an Academy Award for Best Sound for Black Hawk Down monitor all that gut-twisting infrasonic contentall those rumblings I've mentioned that lie just beyond the reach of even refrigerator-sized subs? They used big Bag End subwoofers22 of 'em.

This was quoted out of an article but still I want another example before I will believe something this stupid. Why on earth would they go to that expense to put in infrasonic bass that can't be produced by commercial theaters? 22 subs? For what? What theater has 22 subs? To go through all this trouble is pointless and a big waste of time. Which is why it's so hard to believe. How were they going to present this to movie goers across the country?
post #59 of 182
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by its phillip View Post

lol. You are the one claiming the ULF content is there by mistake or accident - prove it.

Most (if not all) professional THX rated theaters CAN'T produce it.
post #60 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post

That is simply not true. Plenty of audio mixers miss or don't pay attention to specifics in many sounds. In a movie production you might mixe 10's of thousands of sounds in the making of it.

And yet proof was just handed to you and you choose to ignore it. So for Blackhawk down you are saying the 22 Bag End subwoofers were used just for the fun of it? That the intention was to never have sub 25hz bass?
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