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Bang for Buck Large Room Bass - Page 3

post #61 of 182
3/7/12 at 12:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post

Most (if not all) professional THX rated theaters CAN'T produce it.

This to me is the major drawback to the theater experience. My basement theater is far more capable and sounds way better therefore I go to the theater less. Theater sound leaves a lot to be desired for an enthusiast such as myself. I crave deep powerful bass and am not willing to pay $9 for a ticket to a movie that can't be faithfully reproduced by the sound system... I'll buy it on blu-ray and watch it at home.
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post #62 of 182
3/7/12 at 12:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post

Most (if not all) professional THX rated theaters CAN'T produce it.

So what? Just because a commercial theater can't produce sub-20hz bass doesn't mean it's on the film by mistake.
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post #63 of 182
3/7/12 at 12:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ratm View Post

This is so AVS. I love it.

This is every forum on the entire net!
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post #64 of 182
3/7/12 at 12:59pm
Theaters are in the business for making money. Not spending it. It would cost A LOT to go low in a theater.

I'm sure filmmixer is getting a good laugh out of this
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post #65 of 182
3/7/12 at 1:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

Theaters are in the business for making money. Not spending it. It would cost A LOT to go low in a theater.

I'm sure filmmixer is getting a good laugh out of this

Where is he when you need him

Awesome guy by the way.
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post #66 of 182
3/7/12 at 1:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post

Again, the fact that professional theaters don't produce them is all you need to know. The rest is moot. Putting ULF sound into a film without the ability for your audience to experience it is dumb. Period.

But here's the rub.... the home audience can if they are willing to spend their money wisely. So it is not moot. If you want to settle for a subwoofer that is no better then one that is equal in performance found in movie theaters why even buy a subwoofer in the first place?
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post #67 of 182
3/7/12 at 1:04pm
I'm alittle confused by your argument...so your telling us you can see from pictures of THX studios that they can't mix sub 25s...yet no link yet you want science from us yet you got your premise from a photo that isn't really proof? Also I'm sure you meant hpf not lpf?

Instead of putting THX in the argument I might ask why does some of the Dolby and DTS (well datasat now) intros have sub 20hz content? If you are going to tell me it's unintentional than give me some science. Some links. Not some "Hey I spy this subwoofer in the picture so it cant be true that there is sub 20hz" . With that maybe we can do some productive work here
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post #68 of 182
3/7/12 at 1:45pm
REMINDER - Post about products, not other members. Failing to do so may result in losing the ability to post at all...
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post #69 of 182
3/7/12 at 1:57pm
I believe a lot of consumers and women think like the OP. Before I had a capable system in my home, I enjoyed the movie theater experience for its' fantastic sound. I bought gear and equipment for my home to try and emulate that theater sound... and I found that it wasn't hard to do. I always set the theater sound as the "bar" for performance that I sought after at home. After a few years of upgrading and purchasing room treatments and better gear, I now find that the sound in my home far surpasses that at the theaters I used to frequent. I enjoy my HT more than the theater. A big reason for this is the tactile low bass (and huge dynamics) that I get in the comfort of my own home and don't get at the theater. I don't want a PA style subwoofer for my HT system that gets me movie theater style bass... I want the whole enchilada that is able to reproduce 18 hz at reference level all the way up the audio spectrum.

A subwoofer system product that goes down with authority to 25 or 30 hz would be fine by many. A product that goes to 20 hz and below is more enjoyable to me, so I choose that everyday of the week and twice on sundays.
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post #70 of 182
3/7/12 at 2:08pm
First, regarding no mixing houses have response below 25hz. Here is a quote from FilmMixer about the studio at ToddAO:
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

There is no bass management used on the stages when mixing films..

We do, however, add LF extension subs on the main channels... usually 2 18" Bag End subwoofers with no filters.. they go flat well into the teens...

If a film is mixed on a "smaller" stage, or a facility that hasn't spent the kind of money for such a setup, their room is still certified to dub in if it matches the x-curve (along with other requirements outside of frequency response.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by filmmixer View Post

My stage is 2700 sq ft (about 2 stories high.)

We had 18 18" subs (12 for LFE, 2 each LCR for low frequency extension)..

We removed the 12 LFE and went to a single sealed 4 x 18" box.

In terms of extension and dynamics, performance was improved.

I couldn't find a direct quote from someone in the industry whether <25hz content is intentional or accidental but lets look at the facts.

-Numerous large budget films have content below 25hz
-Vast majority of this content matches with what is happening in the movie

If all of this content is accidental, then the studios must be very lucky that all of it matches with what is happening in the movie and is at levels that add to the experience and do not detract from it. If it was all accidental and they did not have any concern with <25hz content, shouldn't there be more posts about ULF in movies that doesn't belong or seems out of place?

When any enthusiast can look at the frequency spectrogram of each channel of a movie with free software, I find it hard to believe that the industry pros don't also have a way to do the same, with much better software.

-Mike
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post #71 of 182
3/7/12 at 2:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ironhead1230 View Post

First, regarding no mixing houses have response below 25hz. Here is a quote from FilmMixer about the studio at ToddAO:




I couldn't find a direct quote from someone in the industry whether <25hz content is intentional or accidental but lets look at the facts.

-Numerous large budget films have content below 25hz
-Vast majority of this content matches with what is happening in the movie

If all of this content is accidental, then the studios must be very lucky that all of it matches with what is happening in the movie and is at levels that add to the experience and do not detract from it. If it was all accidental and they did not have any concern with <25hz content, shouldn't there be more posts about ULF in movies that doesn't belong or seems out of place?

When any enthusiast can look at the frequency spectrogram of each channel of a movie with free software, I find it hard to believe that the industry pros don't also have a way to do the same, with much better software.

-Mike

Great info. I PM'd FilmMixer and hoped he might chime in in this thread, but I tend to agree with you.
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post #72 of 182
3/7/12 at 2:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mannoiaj View Post

I believe a lot of consumers and women think like the OP. Before I had a capable system in my home, I enjoyed the movie theater experience for its' fantastic sound. I bought gear and equipment for my home to try and emulate that theater sound... and I found that it wasn't hard to do. I always set the theater sound as the "bar" for performance that I sought after at home. After a few years of upgrading and purchasing room treatments and better gear, I now find that the sound in my home far surpasses that at the theaters I used to frequent. I enjoy my HT more than the theater. A big reason for this is the tactile low bass (and huge dynamics) that I get in the comfort of my own home and don't get at the theater. I don't want a PA style subwoofer for my HT system that gets me movie theater style bass... I want the whole enchilada that is able to reproduce 18 hz at reference level all the way up the audio spectrum.

A subwoofer system product that goes down with authority to 25 or 30 hz would be fine by many. A product that goes to 20 hz and below is more enjoyable to me, so I choose that everyday of the week and twice on sundays.

I understand that deep bass costs money and I can also understand if someone trying to maximize their limited budget would focus on 25Hz and up, but I agree with the above 100%. Also, I'd like to think that a subwoofer that is flat to close to single digits will also do pretty good with 25-30Hz content as well, especially compared to a sub that might get to 25Hz-30Hz on a good day before it rolls off a cliff.
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post #73 of 182
3/7/12 at 2:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Lang View Post

REMINDER - Post about products, not other members. Failing to do so may result in losing the ability to post at all...

Gotta let the dogs out sometimes
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post #74 of 182
3/7/12 at 2:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

Gotta let the dogs out sometimes

And sometimes you just need to put them down.
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post #75 of 182
3/7/12 at 2:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Lang View Post


And sometimes you just need to put them down.

Haha good to go.

Hopefully filmmixer will chime in if he isn't too busy
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post #76 of 182
3/7/12 at 2:24pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

I'm alittle confused by your argument...so your telling us you can see from pictures of THX studios that they can't mix sub 25s...yet no link yet you want science from us yet you got your premise from a photo that isn't really proof? Also I'm sure you meant hpf not lpf?

Instead of putting THX in the argument I might ask why does some of the Dolby and DTS (well datasat now) intros have sub 20hz content? If you are going to tell me it's unintentional than give me some science. Some links. Not some "Hey I spy this subwoofer in the picture so it cant be true that there is sub 20hz" . With that maybe we can do some productive work here

Have you seriously even been to a professional theater who bass shook the ground? I haven't. I've felt some 30Hz bass at best but nothing like what my car can do and my modest Cambridge Soundworks 12" PSW1 sub even sounds more potent than what I get at the real movie theaters.
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post #77 of 182
3/7/12 at 2:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post


Have you seriously even been to a professional theater who bass shook the ground? I haven't. I've felt some 30Hz bass at best but nothing like what my car can do and my modest Cambridge Soundworks 12" PSW1 sub even sounds more potent than what I get at the real movie theaters.

that's regarding theaters. Let's discuss studios.

Better yet let's wait for the professionals to chime in. Were only spitballing here for now
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post #78 of 182
3/7/12 at 2:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjackkrash View Post

I understand that deep bass costs money and I can also understand if someone trying to maximize their limited budget would focus on 25Hz and up, but I agree with the above 100%. Also, I'd like to think that a subwoofer that is flat to close to single digits will also do pretty good with 25-30Hz content as well, especially compared to a sub that might get to 25Hz-30Hz on a good day before it rolls off a cliff.

I think for the most part the bolded is true. But look at some of the sealed subs like the Epik Empire and eD A7S-450. They cannot play as low as some of the other subs, but they really have some punch in the 50-80hz territory.

http://www.data-bass.com/systems

And then there is always the DTS-10 Kit

You can have your cake and eat it too on a budget, just have to deal with the 800lb gorilla in the room with the wife
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post #79 of 182
3/7/12 at 2:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

Gotta let the dogs out sometimes

I think the point is that we as responsible (to an extent ) members of this forum don't want others to go out and buy stuff others recommend and waste their money. A PA style subwoofer is a great value to someone who needs that subwoofers capability. It has a place in the market or it wouldn't exist. The thing is... it's not the right place to try and have it rock out your HT setup when that isn't what it's designed for. It's design limitation is that it isn't meant to go ULF with authority. If that's important to you look elsewhere. If you want a sub that belches out midrange, take a look at this subwoofer as a budget solution... but also shortlist other pro audio subs that do the same.
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post #80 of 182
3/7/12 at 2:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post

Have you seriously even been to a professional theater who bass shook the ground? I haven't. I've felt some 30Hz bass at best but nothing like what my car can do and my modest Cambridge Soundworks 12" PSW1 sub even sounds more potent than what I get at the real movie theaters.

I suspect most theaters would go broke if they had to fill all their rooms with ultra low frequency bass.

Think about how large most theaters in terms of cubic square feet (lengthxwidthxheight).
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post #81 of 182
3/7/12 at 2:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mannoiaj View Post

I think the point is that we as responsible (to an extent ) members of this forum don't want others to go out and buy stuff others recommend and waste their money. A PA style subwoofer is a great value to someone who needs that subwoofers capability. It has a place in the market or it wouldn't exist. The thing is... it's not the right place to try and have it rock out your HT setup when that isn't what it's designed for. It's design limitation is that it isn't meant to go ULF with authority. If that's important to you look elsewhere. If you want a sub that belches out midrange, take a look at this subwoofer as a budget solution... but also shortlist other pro audio subs that do the same.

Who says it is even about ULF with these PA subs? I would love Ricci to measure one, but again, there are probably some serious costs being cut on these things in terms of drivers, bracing, etc.

Archea has actually bought one and tried it. The OP is more than welcome to buy a couple of these and give it a whirl.
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post #82 of 182
3/7/12 at 2:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

I suspect most theaters would go broke if they had to fill all their rooms with ultra low frequency bass.

Think about how large most theaters in terms of cubic square feet (lengthxwidthxheight).

Not to mention the ultra low bass bleeding into the other auditoriums. I heard that is basically why they roll off around 30hz...
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post #83 of 182
3/7/12 at 2:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by drewTT View Post


Not to mention the ultra low bass bleeding into the other auditoriums. I heard that is basically why they roll off around 30hz...

Already annoying to hear bombs during the artist haha
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post #84 of 182
3/7/12 at 2:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

Already annoying to hear bombs during the artist haha

Nice
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post #85 of 182
3/7/12 at 2:46pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

Great info. I PM'd FilmMixer and hoped he might chime in in this thread, but I tend to agree with you.

This would be great. Having info from someone in the industry would give everyone the chance to flesh out these concerns. I'm all about truth and this would give us an avenue to settle this quibble.
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post #86 of 182
3/7/12 at 2:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

Who says it is even about ULF with these PA subs? I would love Ricci to measure one, but again, there are probably some serious costs being cut on these things in terms of drivers, bracing, etc.

Archea has actually bought one and tried it. The OP is more than welcome to buy a couple of these and give it a whirl.

I'm saying you're not going to get the ULF with this subwoofer. If that's what you're looking for, look elsewhere.
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post #87 of 182
3/7/12 at 2:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

I suspect most theaters would go broke if they had to fill all their rooms with ultra low frequency bass.

Think about how large most theaters in terms of cubic square feet (lengthxwidthxheight).

The theaters just need to be designed with infinite baffle subs in mind.
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post #88 of 182
3/7/12 at 3:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeBiker View Post

The theaters just need to be designed with infinite baffle subs in mind.

They are designed with performance/dollar in mind and being profitable. Theaters have found that reproducing the ULF isn't feasible in a business sense, or they would do so. If I opened a theater that had the ultimate in sound reproduction and spent the coin to do so... it most likely wouldn't be "AS" profitable of a venture as the current theaters.... hence the reason why we have mediocre sound at our local theaters. Great sound reproduction isn't common in my experience. A lot of people still think BOSE is the way to go. My beef with society is that they spend alot of time watching movies and sitting on their couches... but they won't spend a couple grand to make the experience much better. They spend that money on a vehicle that they drive 10 miles / 25 minutes per day.
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post #89 of 182
3/7/12 at 3:20pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer
There is no bass management used on the stages when mixing films..

We do, however, add LF extension subs on the main channels... usually 2 18" Bag End subwoofers with no filters.. they go flat well into the teens...

If a film is mixed on a "smaller" stage, or a facility that hasn't spent the kind of money for such a setup, their room is still certified to dub in if it matches the x-curve (along with other requirements outside of frequency response.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by filmmixer
My stage is 2700 sq ft (about 2 stories high.)

We had 18 18" subs (12 for LFE, 2 each LCR for low frequency extension)..

We removed the 12 LFE and went to a single sealed 4 x 18" box.

In terms of extension and dynamics, performance was improved.

These were quotes from a post outside of this thread made by someone in the industry. So it's an effective piece of information.

That is a room with a large cubic volume. This setup is what I would expect for mixing subsonic bass (perhaps even 20"+ subs). So, now we're talking. The next question is, how is the setup calibrated and effectively, what SPL are the frequencies under 20Hz getting to? Etc. This will tell us quite a bit and allow end-users to have a reference by which they can duplicate the experience the studio mixed. This is quite exciting if this gentleman could answer these questions!
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post #90 of 182
3/7/12 at 3:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mannoiaj View Post

hence the reason why we have mediocre sound at our local theaters.

Should have been to movie theaters in the 70s when I was a kid. We have great sound now compared to then
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