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Measuring the 'Tactile Feeling' of your sub system - Page 3

post #61 of 96
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

I think this is a great thread. cool.gif
If you've noticed, I don't post much these days. That's because there aren't many threads like this that look at new areas of what we experience when listening and why we like one presentation or another more or less.
The problem here is that transmission and excitation from traveling pressure waves both cause tactile sensation. Living close enough to and working near airports in Pittsburgh and here in Charlotte, I've seen cases where a jet taking off shattered the windows in a house. Back in the 60s thru the early 80s, when legacy engines produced 130-140dB at takeoff, the airport authorities had to purchase homes and move people out of the new flight paths.
Then there's the subs that cause extraneous transmission vibrations by their design vs dual opposed subs like the SM, Empire and DIY (I've been building them for 9 years because the previous subs I built were down-firing and I immediately noticed the difference with the first dual opposed sub build).
Still, I encourage you to keep this thread alive and continue to investigate. You're obviously a smart guy and the audio world needs a metric for quantification of low frequency reproduction. There are lots of metrics and methodologies for anechoic performance, but next to none for how that translates to the listening experience in different rooms with different source material.
I just thought some basic understanding of the physics of the phenomena would help forward motion.
Good stuff, Dom. smile.gif
Bosso

Thank you sir. smile.gif

My ultimate vision would be to agree on metrics and tools, and then members could post their results. I'd consolidate the info, and update post 1. cool.gif
post #62 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

I am using the HTC Thunderbolt. My calibration settings say 30+12 (not sure what that means). But when I adjust the 12 to a higher number, it becomes more sensitive. What does yours say?
Why don't we calibrate all them this way. Make sure your phone does not have a case and is on a flat surface. Run the app and tap just right below the graph so it does not reset the meter. The tap should be just a normal tap; not too hard and not to soft. When I do this, I typically register from .75 to 1.25 on the scale. Adjust your calibration so that when you tap, it is generally in that range. Hopefully that will sort of calibrate our systems and you can remeasure

Aha, mine was set to 30+0. I set it 30+12 and the tap test looks reasonable at least. I found that the reading was very dependent on what I set the phone on though. It took some trial and error but I eventually found a surface in my room that measured an 8.4 tongue.gif
post #63 of 96
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lennon_68 View Post

Aha, mine was set to 30+0. I set it 30+12 and the tap test looks reasonable at least. I found that the reading was very dependent on what I set the phone on though. It took some trial and error but I eventually found a surface in my room that measured an 8.4 tongue.gif
Nice! That's some serious shaking my friend. It's not perfect, but the best I've discovered so far. What surface was that on?

Also, what does it register at your main LP?

Also, averages are probably a better measurement than max value...although max value is impressive when you relate it back to the Mercali scale. 8.4 would land at:

1.0 - Instrumental. Felt by animals
2.0 - Weak. Felt indoors by a few people
3.0 - Slight. Felt indoors by several
4.0 - Moderate. Hanging objects swing
5.0 - Rather Strong. Dishes broken
6.0 - Strong. Heavy furniture moved
7.0 - Very Strong. Difficult to stand
8.0 - Destructive. Fall of walls!!!
9.0 - Violent. Noticeable ground cracks
10.0 - Intense. Almost destroyed
11.0 - Extreme. Rails bent greatly
12.0 - Cataclysmic. Total destruction

I'll try and capture averages for mine. Also, maybe we should use WOTW scene as the reference?
post #64 of 96
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Great info Bosso, as usual. It makes a lot of sense (at least at a 10,000ft level).
A couple of things:
One of the reasons why I started this thread was I wanted to see if there was any tool or measurement that would allow me (and others) to really know how it 'feels' in each others room. Obviously, there are many factors that come into play and you'd never truly know how it 'feels', but my hope was that it would at least give you a general idea of what it feels like to watch a movie in your room.
Based on my experience and those who have contributed so far, I'd classify 'tactile feeling' in two ways:
  1. The shaking caused by physical objects (seating, floor, etc.) that are in contact with your body as a result of the pressure waves created by the sub or mechanical shaking of a transducer moving those physical objects. In your example, I would equate this with the 'earthquake'.
  2. The pressure waves traveling from the sub that come in contact with your body directly. I equate this sensation to the 'kick in the chest' sensation. In your example, this would be the jet, or another example would be blades of a helicopter. In this case, the pressure waves are directly affecting your body, and not indirectly through other objects. IOW, you could be standing in a concrete bunker and still feel this sensation.
Again, not exact my any means, but the tool to measure #1 could be something like the vibration meter in the Mercali Scale. I'm not directly trying to measure the pressure waves, but the affect that the waves have by 'shaking' the physical objects that are in contact with your body. I peaked around 7 on that scale. If MK measured, and peaked around 10 in his room, now I have somewhat of a frame of reference of what the 'shaking' feels like in his room compared to mine.
Now for #2, obviously the barometer isn't the right tool to measure...as to how we can measure this sensation is still unknown to me....or perhaps it is just an SPL reading? Intuitively, 120db nearfield would seem to have more tactile sensation than 120db from 20ft away. BUT, the more I think about it, perhaps we are confusing #1 and #2 for that nearfield sub. IOW, 120db sitting on a couch with the sub behind you, is going to feel much different sitting in the same couch with 120db from a sub 20ft away. Perhaps this is because the nearfield placement is better at physically shaking the couch and we perceive that as more of a tactile feeling. But if we were to remove the couch, 120db would actually feel the same nearfield as it does from 20ft away?
Does this make sense? Maybe a straight SPL reading IS the best way to measure #2...what needs to change is the way we measure it (e.g. we need to not be affected by physical objects in contact with us to measure apples to apples).
To bring it back to the beginning, combining these 'tactile feeling' measurements with FR, distortion, etc., I think it would give people a fairly good idea of what it is like to watch a movie or listen to music in your room (at least from a subwoofer frequencies standpoint) without actually having to be there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jchong View Post

In your example above I assume the hypothetical figure of 120dB is as measured at the listening position? Because if you were talking about 120dB as output at the sub, then of course there is some loss as the distance gets farther (in your example behind the couch vs 20ft away).
For punch we often hear people recommending a nearfield sub placement. Is this simply so that the sub has to work less hard to produce a given spl or is there some other factor at play? confused.gif Do pressure waves have velocity? If so, does this decrease over distance?

Sorry I missed this jchong. Yes, 120db is at the listening position.

That does seem to be the general theme; punch = nearfield placement. In my setup, the punch comes from my sealed subs up front, and the shake from my ported subs nearfield. One other sensation I forgot to mention; the wobble comes from my sealed subs up front. IMO, the wobble is the really low frequencies...

Regarding the sub working less hard nearfield equaling more shake; I'm not sure how that works. Why is there more tactile sensation nearfield at 120db (at LP) and less tactile sensation farfield at the same 120db output measured at the LP? Perhaps you are onto something about pressure waves and velocity?
post #65 of 96
Thread Starter 

I really enjoy the tactile shake in my main LP. But the side seats just don't get the same shake as my main LP. It's always bothered me because when I have guests over, I want them to feel the same shake in any seat, not just the main LP.

 

My HT couch is made up of 3 sections. Anywhere in the middle section, you'll get that awesome tactile feeling. In that spot, you're basically in the sweet spot of my 2 FTWs and my 2 EXs. I've tried placing nearfield subs at the mid wall (closer to the side HT seating) to see if that would provide the same impact....I placed a older sealed sub and a LFM Plus, and it still didn't provide that couch shake like the main LP.

 

I recently visited laugsbach place, and he had just put in Clark Synthesis transducers (from PE). His transducers were FAR FAR better than his Auras....I never liked his aura's because I felt like I was in a massage chair, because they were so 'localizeable'. However, the Clarks were unbelievably realistic! It truly felt I had some large ported subs directly behind me!

 

So, with his help, I bought a pair and he installed them....just on the outer sections of the couch. I didn't want to touch the center section, as I wanted to keep it 'natural'. After a couple weeks of feeling them, I have to say that for the most part, mission accomplished! I've dialed them in to closely match my main LP shake. Since I know what the 'real' thing is like, I wanted to try and recreate that on the outer sections of the couch. Movies in those seats are MUCH more impactful, and I can sleep better at night knowing that in all the seats, they feel very similar, or more importantly, like the main LP!

 

As far as comparing the natural shake of the main LP and the transducers directly...they are close, but there is definitely a difference. The main difference is the seats with the transducers seem to be missing some shake, especially in the lower octaves. These tranducers are rated to 16hz...but the outer seats are definitely missing something. Also, as you might have guessed, the shaking in the main LP is a lot more uniform and natural. It's not to say the Clark's aren't natural, but when you compare them with the real thing, you can tell the difference. If you had nothing to compare them with, then you wouldn't know they weren't natural...I just happen to have both implemented in my room to tell the difference. Bottom line, if you can't get the shake you want naturally, then I'd definitely recommend a good set of transducers (Clark's being one of them!).

 

After re-reading what I wrote, I guess you could look at it like this: 

 

Transducers are somewhat like breast enhancements. When done poorly, they can seem cheap and fake. When done well, they really enhance the overall experience and it's hard to tell a difference. However, when compared to a fine 'natural' set, there's nothing like the real thing...smile.gif

post #66 of 96
Doing a little research on bass shakers, I see that P-E has 3 levels of Clark units, the top unit would cost about the same as an LFM-1 EX!

There is a comparison chart showing the low end unit has response down to 15 Hz, the top unit to 5 Hz. Also, reading reviews, the top unit puts out more than twice the efficiency (ft-lb/watt) of the lower priced units. If price were no object, the decision would be easy. In the review of the top unit, it did say to maybe use a HPF on the Platinum unit - it is noticeable with voices and cymbal crashes.

As to your final analogy, I'd have to vote for fake, the eyes rule the mind for me! biggrin.gif
post #67 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Transducers are somewhat like breast enhancements.

eek.gif

My morning cup of coffee nearly ended up on my monitor...tongue.gif
post #68 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by laugsbach View Post

eek.gif
My morning cup of coffee nearly ended up on my monitor...tongue.gif
biggrin.gif interesting analogy
post #69 of 96
never know what you are going to read in any thread
keeps me coming back
enhancements indeed
post #70 of 96
I downloaded the app. Gave me a wonderful reason to pop Rambo in and see if the system is still performing

on Chapter 13 when John detonates the old nuke I hit 9.7 and hit 10.1 but I question the 10.1 because I didn't really feel it.

on Chapter 14 when John gets on the .50 cal and starts mowing down the opposition I don't know the max but I would assume it was in the upper 9s as I saw 9s several times spending most of the time in the 5 to 7 range.

Phone was on my couch while I did my test similiar to the method used by the OP. System consists of a Definitive Technology SuperCube Reference, L/R Def Tech Supertowers, and Seaton Submersive cool.gif

Room is a wide open living room on the main floor of the house. Won't be in the theater with concrete floors for a few months
Edited by Larry M - 7/22/12 at 10:53am
post #71 of 96
Is there an app like this for iphone/ipad?
post #72 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimVG View Post

Is there an app like this for iphone/ipad?

Don't know, but this is a really fun app

Listening to Darude - Sandstorm and hitting 6s is entertaining
post #73 of 96
Wife came over to give me her official Richter Scale Reading and she said the wine glasses are shaking and going to break...testing for the day is done biggrin.gif
post #74 of 96
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry M View Post

I downloaded the app. Gave me a wonderful reason to pop Rambo in and see if the system is still performing
on Chapter 13 when John detonates the old nuke I hit 9.7 and hit 10.1 but I question the 10.1 because I didn't really feel it.
on Chapter 14 when John gets on the .50 cal and starts mowing down the opposition I don't know the max but I would assume it was in the upper 9s as I saw 9s several times spending most of the time in the 5 to 7 range.
Phone was on my couch while I did my test similiar to the method used by the OP. System consists of a Definitive Technology SuperCube Reference, L/R Def Tech Supertowers, and Seaton Submersive cool.gif

10.1? Wow! That's some sick shaking!

 

Just so we're on the same page, try calibrating the app on your phone by reading an earlier post here: 

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1398473/measuring-the-tactile-feeling-of-your-sub-system/30#post_22109132

 

How big is your listening room? Do you have your subm nearfield?

post #75 of 96
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by laugsbach View Post


eek.gif
My morning cup of coffee nearly ended up on my monitor...tongue.gif

LOL!

 

Now when I say your room feels awesome...brings a whole new meaning to it, doesn't it? wink.gif

post #76 of 96
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimVG View Post

Is there an app like this for iphone/ipad?

I haven't found one that works as well as the android app. I'll try and email the developer and see if he has any intention of porting it over to iOS.

 

If you find one, let us know...

post #77 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

10.1? Wow! That's some sick shaking!

Just so we're on the same page, try calibrating the app on your phone by reading an earlier post here: 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1398473/measuring-the-tactile-feeling-of-your-sub-system/30#post_22109132

How big is your listening room? Do you have your subm nearfield?

The SubM is about 9'-10' away (sorry all my tape measures are in the basement)
I didn't calibrate, I'll have to calibrate and rerun the test. It seemed accurate as the meter did read 0 when there was no response. I'll still calibrate but I'll have to test when the wife isn't home.

The room I am currently in is about 13 x 15 but the room is open to the remainder of the house
Here is my layout
post #78 of 96
Thread Starter 

I've been very pleased with my LFM1-EXs and FTW21s. My outlaws provided a tactile shake that my eD A7S-450s could not in the same position. In fact, I even moved 1 of my FTW21s right behind my seating to see if I could recreate the shake that my ported Outlaws provided, and it was even close; the outlaws shook the couch more. I never understood why that is...but in my room, ported behind the couch provided a tactile shake that sealed could not.

 

A while ago, a local AVS member came over to demo my new setup. Here was his post:

 

 

Quote:
I stopped over at dom's house this weekend for a proper demo of his latest system. On the 30 minute ride over to his house, I smiled to myself thinking about his first sub the A2-300 and his favorite demo scene from Hulk...I wondered if even he knew where his sub journey was heading after the A2-300 made a bad noise during a demanding scene from the movie. The journey is where all the fun is and the destination can have a sense of sadness that the journey is over...
The sub destination that dom has arrived at is truly the best his system has ever sounded and is the best I have ever heard since starting this hobby in 1990. The BHD scene quoted above is the first time that I have felt the impact of the 7Hz note. On top of that, the rest of the sound field was equally as impressive with a constant slam to the chest. On all of the demos, the weight in the room was so impressive, the slam in the chest, the energy in the sofa and the ease at which his system reproduced all of it at reference level.....in a word - STUNNING.
Every demo scene was new to me....mind you; I have listened to some of these scenes at least 100 times over the years in my room and his. All of the usual words come to mind - clean, effortless, dynamic, impactful.....WOTW is as immersive as I have ever heard it and years later is still the king of demos (IMHO) on a system like this. Sound Quality is off the charts, I finally have an appreciation of it after this demo. My good friend, you should be very, very proud in what you have created. A TOTAL masterpiece. Your sub journey might be over....it certainly is over for the short term...I can't imagine another system sounding "better". I guess another system can sound louder but your space can't be "improved".
If you are within driving distance to dom, please do yourself a favor and request a demo. I am very excited at the moment as my sub journey is cranking back up again....dom has showed me what is possible and I can't wait to do the same upgrade in my system!
 

Very kind words! And I was in agreement with him...I thought I had reached my own personal subwoofage Nirvana. Until...I started noticing some port chuffing at very loud volumes with the Outlaws when ran in max extension mode. If I ran it in max output mode, the port chuffing would go away, but so would the extra shaking the max extension mode provided. Granted, it was only noticeable on literally a handful of less than 30 second scenes...but still always annoyed me a bit. I then started thinking about what ported sub I could get that would eliminate the port chuffing, but still provide me the extension.

 

It was downs to 2 subs: a passive Cap or the FV15HP. Since output is NOT an issue in my room with the dual 21in subs, I went with extension. The FV15HP extends down to 14hz anechoic with 1 port plug. Additionally, my hope was in my room I could extend the FV15HP to 10hz or less. The Outlaws extended to 12-13hz and they are tuned to 16hz. My decision to get the FV15HP was accelerated as a (by chance) found a buyer for the Outlaws. And so, I welcomed an FV15HP to my HT:

 

 

I removed the dual Outlaw LFM1-EXs, and place directly behind the main LP:

 

 

 

I was taking a big chance here in my mind, because I wasn't sure that the Rythmik would sound as good or provide me the tactile feeling that I knew the outlaws did!

 

Well, it paid off! biggrin.gif

 

It took me a very long time to integrate in with the FTW21s. I'd say a good 6 hours over a couple of days. Getting ported and sealed to play nice together is always difficult, but this one was even more difficult. During those 6 hours, I had many a curve that looked fairly decent, but didn't sound nearly as good as my Outlaws. You can imagine what was going through my mind at that point. I finally got the curve that I wanted:

 

 

Where I thought I had great sound quality, awesome tactile feeling, and headroom with my Outlaws...the Rythmik is MUCH better at all three! My jaw literally dropped at the difference in all those categories! As far as SQ goes, the biggest difference is that the rythmik stops on a dime compared to the outlaws! During the hulk scene where Banner turns into the hulk the first time at the college campus; he busts out of the hallway bridge and lands on the ground. I always thought that scene was stressed with the outlaws. With the FV15HP, when the hulk hits the ground, there is no reverb...just a quick loud thump and it just STOPS. WOTW pod emergence, hulk cop crash car, all sounded like everything stopped on a dime. It was pretty unbelievable.

 

Additionally, where I thought I had headroom before, I have it in SPADES with the Rythmik. It never sounds stressed at all (although I still get brief port chuffing at reference on some scenes)....my best description of my new found headroom is that it actually sounds quieter than it should and feels like it should be turned up more!!!

 

But the biggest difference between the outlaws and the FV15HP is the tactile feeling. I takes me a lot to wince...but that is what I did after running each demo scene (WOTW, HTTYD, Hulk, Iron Man, FOTP, BHD, Percy Jackson, etc.) at reference! It feels like my subs are attacking your body...chest pounding, body shaking, wobbling bass! It's truly brutal. Another scene that stands out is the sound cannon scene in the Hulk; it is much more more textured now; there are bass waves I had never heard of felt before...that scene is truly a different experience now.

 

To put things in perspective (for those that run transducers), I run Clark Synthesis transducers for my outer seats (my outer seats don't get the shake like my middle seat does). I try and match the shake of the middle seat by adjusting the gain of the transducers on my outer seats. With the outlaws, they were just slightly turned up to match the middle seat. With the FV15HP, I had to turn the transducers all the way up to match the middle seat!!! eek.gif In fact, the transducers could not match the shake of the middle seat as I blew both transducers when listening at reference!!! eek.gif

 

As I said before, I'm not sure of the physics as to why ported shake more than sealed in my room...but if you have an option to have a nearfield sub, it's WELL worth it. smile.gif

post #79 of 96
Good for you but I had the ultimate ported sub for extension, the DTS-10's, and with the Low shelf filter in place they can't compete down low with my sealed system. Of course this is my room and others will vary. Have you measured just the Rhytmik and just a FTW-21 at the nearfield locations? Did you apply a low shelf or LT boost of any kind to the sealed subs?
post #80 of 96
BTW, does the iPhone have an app for this? I will see if I can hook up my Samsung tablet to the system as well.
post #81 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

....my best description of my new found headroom is that it actually sounds quieter than it should and feels like it should be turned up more!!!

I completely agree...smile.gif Thank you so much for the demo!

You have reference level covered to single digits with an impressive level of sound quality....AWESOME!wink.gif
post #82 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

...but I had the ultimate ported sub for extension, the DTS-10's

Well...I have never heard/felt a DTS-10 kit but I purchased Josh's DIY XXX Ported 18" Sub and it looks to be the KING of ported subs for extension and it is good to about 8Hz in my room even with a slightly different RE audio driver installed...smile.gif
post #83 of 96
DIY does not count and yes I agree with you, that ported XXX is king! That different driver will probably get you 3-5 dBs less at 10hz but still awesome numbers. My new system has hit 130 dBs at 10hz using sine waves and 11.8%THD. At 15hz and 20hz I was still under 7% THD at 130 dBs! It will be hard to change this system I have and I love to change. My speakers are very clean at reference as well. It shows during playback of music and movies.
post #84 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

...That different driver will probably get you 3-5 dBs less at 10hz but still awesome numbers.

Upgrade path....got to have an upgrade path and the XXX driver is in my future!smile.gif

I would love to hear your system...need to plan a road trip to NY...cool.gif
post #85 of 96
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Good for you but I had the ultimate ported sub for extension, the DTS-10's, and with the Low shelf filter in place they can't compete down low with my sealed system. Of course this is my room and others will vary. Have you measured just the Rhytmik and just a FTW-21 at the nearfield locations? Did you apply a low shelf or LT boost of any kind to the sealed subs?

I did measure the FTW-21 nearfield...unfortunately, I didn't save the OM file. The FTW21s FR did look different compared to the outlaws. IIRC, the FTWs were down around 6db at 13hz or so. However, when I listened to it at reference, it was a different kind of shake. It was heavier, tighter shake as opposed to the outlaws. I recognize that it's probably the different FR's of the subs, but what I found very odd was that I wasn't getting any of the low rumble 'shake' that the outlaws provided...none. I would think I would still get some even being 6db down. Maybe the upper frequency shake excited the couch differently with the FTW21 thus removing the 'shake' that the ported provided? I dunno, all very subjective.

 

I did to a test with the eD A7S-450s where I boosted the low end to match the Outlaw FR. I had to apply a lot of boost (8-9db) to match at around tune, but I was able to. When playing the eD with the matched outlaw FR, it was once again the heavy, tighter shake. It wasn't even close to matching the Outlaw 'ported' shake. The best way I can describe the ported shake would be what I would perceive a small tremor would feel like...if that makes any sense.

 

Remember, all this is happening in concrete basement as a foundation...so I get no help from the floor shaking.

post #86 of 96
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

BTW, does the iPhone have an app for this? I will see if I can hook up my Samsung tablet to the system as well.

No, haven't found a one for the iphone that measure on the same scale (Mercalli). Would be interested to see what your tablet registers...

post #87 of 96
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by laugsbach View Post


Well...I have never heard/felt a DTS-10 kit but I purchased Josh's DIY XXX Ported 18" Sub and it looks to be the KING of ported subs for extension and it is good to about 8Hz in my room even with a slightly different RE audio driver installed...smile.gif

Ahem...the Ported King is long overdue for a review! smile.gif

post #88 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Ahem...the Ported King is long overdue for a review! smile.gif

Indeed...smile.gif

The fact that my neighbor calls just about with every movie played shows how powerful this sub is in the LF & ULF...too many new toys at the moment but I will get to it! BTW, I need you to measure the tactile feeling of the KING the next time you are over.cool.gif
post #89 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by laugsbach View Post

Indeed...smile.gif
The fact that my neighbor calls just about with every movie played shows how powerful this sub is in the LF & ULF...too many new toys at the moment but I will get to it! BTW, I need you to measure the tactile feeling of the KING the next time you are over.cool.gif
Is he calling to tell you how much he admires your sub?
post #90 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

Is he calling to tell you how much he admires your sub?

Not quite...tongue.gif

His latest comment is that he is afraid that his windows are going to shatter due to the flexing caused by the subwoofer. His window is about 35' from my sub...

I notice that you live in Cincinnati....PM me if you want a demo. smile.gif
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