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Lexicon MC12 & other high end processors Vs Onkyo with Audessy - Page 2

post #31 of 49
12/11/12 at 6:40pm
I have the integra 80.3 pre-pro with XLR outputs. It has audyssey 9.2 (not 11.2 pre outs).

It is straight up AMAZING. I use it with a stack of crown XLS series amps for all surround channels and a Pass Labs amp for my mains.

I cannot imagine that the lexicon processor which is quite old would be able to process like this thing.


I would wait for the next version of the integra pre-pro line if I were looking right now.

THe next version is likely to have 11.4 processing and hopefully independent 4 subwoofer equalization to really help for people with 4 subs (the magic optimal number of subs).

I would NEVER choose a pre-pro again that does not use XLR outputs (as a side note).
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post #32 of 49
12/11/12 at 7:59pm
I have the DHC-80.3 and while it does great for movies I am not a fan of Audyssey for music. I just got an Omnimic so once I chase that I can see if it is the curve or just DSP that I don't like. I am also not a big fan of Lexicon, just never did anything for me although my experience is limited. The Bryston SP3 is the only unit that has me wishing at this point. The Anthem gear also interests me but from what I gather a bit buggy?
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post #33 of 49
12/27/12 at 9:43pm
I started the HT game with receivers - high end ones, but still "receivers" - and then moved into the Parasound separates around 1996. Wow, what a difference! I can still remember the first time turning up the Parasound gear - I was floored. Then, I stepped up big time (for me, at the time, in terms of dollars) to the Lexicon DC1. Double WOW. Blew me away again (over the Parasound gear). Then the MC1, then on to the MC12. Each step was a big improvement, although a bit "less" than the jumps from receivers to the Parasound and then to the DC1.

As the years ticked by and cutting edge high end processors seemed to be missing some important new feature sets, along with the fact that new models were becoming scarce (ahem, MC12), I actually went back to receivers (oh my!), as the top of line Denon's (5xxx series) and Yamaha's (RX-V11) - both of which I had - were starting to offer more features and technology than their big high end competitors and actually sounded pretty good - and cost thousands less.

Then, as the new decade sets in, I start hearing a lot of good things about Integra processors. My first thought was, how can a $3,000 processor with all the latest bells and whistles sound as good as the high end models I had just a few years earlier? When Integra released the 80.2 with Audyssey XT32 I thought, what the heck, may as well give it a shot. After the Audyssey calibration, I sat down to give it a run. Wow! To me, in my room, the sound was just as good - if not better - than my trusty old Lexicon MC12. I couldn't believe it. It still amazes me every time I turn it on (dedicated theater room). It will be very hard for me to ever pay $10k+ for a processor again if you can get sound like this for $3k. I'm sold.
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post #34 of 49
12/27/12 at 10:09pm
Just my observations.
I have and still have an Integra 80.2 with Audyssey XT32. When I listened to it it sounded great to me, much better than my Yamaha Z9 with all the EQ done on both machines. I now have a DataSat RS20i and to honest, the difference is night and day, the RS20i is superior in SQ and with the room EQ. After listening to this machine anything with Audyssey seems flat and lacking dynamics (I also had a AVP-A1HD for 3 months, this was better than the Integra, but still lacking)

Just my 2 cents.
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post #35 of 49
12/28/12 at 2:03pm
Very interesting read. I keep on loving my MC-12. It seems no matter how many of my friends' places I go to and I hear their current receivers (Pioneer, Pioneer Elite, Denon, Yamaha, I don't think anyone has an Onkyo though) I always walk away thankful I have not moved on from my MC-12 and unlike myself some of my friends have dedicated HT rooms which are orders of magnitude better acoustical enviroments then my apartment and I think that's what surprises me the most. If the 10 (10+ now maybe) year old MC-12 platform can make my crappy room sound so good what could it do in my friends' room.
Edited by Rod#S - 12/28/12 at 2:10pm
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post #36 of 49
12/28/12 at 2:40pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod#S View Post

Very interesting read. I keep on loving my MC-12. It seems no matter how many of my friends' places I go to and I hear their current receivers (Pioneer, Pioneer Elite, Denon, Yamaha, I don't think anyone has an Onkyo though) I always walk away thankful I have not moved on from my MC-12 and unlike myself some of my friends have dedicated HT rooms which are orders of magnitude better acoustical enviroments then my apartment and I think that's what surprises me the most. If the 10 (10+ now maybe) year old MC-12 platform can make my crappy room sound so good what could it do in my friends' room.
I concur with you Rod. I have owned processors for 18 years.. From the fossgate analog to Lexicon DC1 (actually, the fossgate was probably better except it didn't have dolby digital), Lexicon DC2 (bad!) and the Lexicon MC1 (excellent). I used them with JBL synthesis 3 system and subsequently with Bryston 7bst monoblocks for front 3 channels..
When the Integra came out with DTS HD MA, I read rave reviews on this forum and I fell for that! I formed a mistaken opinion that my $5000 lexicon mc1 had become outdated.. Sold it for $500 and bought the Integra receiver (around $1800 to $2100 - I don't remember). Got it home.. with the intent of using it only as a processor.. hooked it up with my Bryston mono block amps etc.... Alas! within the first few minutes, I realised.. what a mistake I made! It sounded like any other typical receiver!!

I tried its audessy and that was even worse (lost fidelity, in my opinion!). Fortunately, I was able to get rid of it quickly (it was actually sold out in the market and there was a waiting list of a couple of weeks at that time! So I didn't lose much money).. and I bought a Lexicon MC12 (non HD). I find the MC12 to be superior to MC1. Even though my MC12 does not process DTS MA HD, considering that 98% of my viewing is TV, I am perfectly happy with it. I have also installed Anthem processors for two of my friends. They were set up with QSC pro amps. Anthem also sounds great - perhaps as good as the MC12 but for 1/2 the price of MC12. If I were in the market today, I would probably buy the Anthem. I heard that Lexicon lost a lot of its original engineers. I am not necessarily writing this because I have a liking for lexicon. As I wrote, I probably would rather buy an Anthem next but the Lexicon MC12 is truly an amazing processor. I find it very surprising that any of the receivers can sound close it it..

Disclaimers: I have not heard the current generation $2000+ range receivers; therefore I could be off base.. but I don't think so.. I do have 17+ years of experience of high end home theater..
I do own a couple of $500 receivers. One of them drives a JBL synthesis center speaker. Those receivers are actually excellent. I think both are by Sony.. The point is, the receivers certainly have come a long way. They do sound great! But frankly, I am not sure that I would find a $3000 receiver to be far superior to the $500 receiver.. again.. based on my prior Integra fiasco! Most were saying similar things.. that it is better than Lexicon MC1 etc.. and its the future.. blah blah!

Granted, it probably is slightly better than a $500 receiver and has many bells and whistles but for my normal usage, I am extremely happy with the sub $500 sony receivers. But having said that, I find that most receivers have certain similarity in sound characteristics, which to me, make them sound like a "typical receiver" - no matter what brand. I guess one brand might well be better or worse than other but over all, they lack the "power and authority" of a system consisting of a separate processor and high power external amps. Even though I used my integra with my high power mono blocks, the resulting sound fidelity (not spl!) was still closer to my $500 receiver than to my MC12.. I have nothing against those who prefer audessy or $3000 receivers.. Just expressing my opinion..

Therefore, I concur with Rod, that the MC12 and its high end bretheren .. whether the Anthem, the Meridian, et al.. do sound quite superior compared to the typical all in one receiver boxes. Are the high end processors worth the $10,000+ prices? Perhaps to others but certainly not to me! $5000 for an MC1 was the most I was willing to spend, for a processor at that time (MC12 was not released). When MC12 came out and was what? 12,000? I thought it was ridiculously priced.. Subsequently, I was able to buy an mc12, used, for $3500 and was thrilled at first sound!

ps: Blazar - I agree with you, about the XLR connections. While I have not really done a/b testing, I would prefer to use xlr. You are using good amps with your integra and if you are happy, thats great.. the 11.4 might give a different dimension - a superior dimension.. and it might make the integra preferable to you.. I can't say that mc12 would be superior to a 11.4 set up.. I am only writing about basic fidelity of sound.. MC12 and anthem do sound quite high end! I hope you will have a chance to audition one, in your own system.. Again, if your primary objective is dts hd ma and 11.4, yes, the mc12 is not for you.. I don't know about current offerings of Anthem. My experience is 5 years old.
Edited by audvid - 12/28/12 at 2:55pm
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post #37 of 49
12/30/12 at 7:35am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bambam View Post

I started the HT game with receivers - high end ones, but still "receivers" - and then moved into the Parasound separates around 1996. Wow, what a difference! I can still remember the first time turning up the Parasound gear - I was floored. Then, I stepped up big time (for me, at the time, in terms of dollars) to the Lexicon DC1. Double WOW. Blew me away again (over the Parasound gear). Then the MC1, then on to the MC12. Each step was a big improvement, although a bit "less" than the jumps from receivers to the Parasound and then to the DC1.
As the years ticked by and cutting edge high end processors seemed to be missing some important new feature sets, along with the fact that new models were becoming scarce (ahem, MC12), I actually went back to receivers (oh my!), as the top of line Denon's (5xxx series) and Yamaha's (RX-V11) - both of which I had - were starting to offer more features and technology than their big high end competitors and actually sounded pretty good - and cost thousands less.
Then, as the new decade sets in, I start hearing a lot of good things about Integra processors. My first thought was, how can a $3,000 processor with all the latest bells and whistles sound as good as the high end models I had just a few years earlier? When Integra released the 80.2 with Audyssey XT32 I thought, what the heck, may as well give it a shot. After the Audyssey calibration, I sat down to give it a run. Wow! To me, in my room, the sound was just as good - if not better - than my trusty old Lexicon MC12. I couldn't believe it. It still amazes me every time I turn it on (dedicated theater room). It will be very hard for me to ever pay $10k+ for a processor again if you can get sound like this for $3k. I'm sold.
bambam, I find your post very interesting. You have followed the same path as I did. Almost exactly the same! I also started out with receivers. Onkyo actually, I think, in or about 1990. The MC1 was excellent.. and now MC12. You say that the Integra 80.2 is as good or better than your mc12? wow! Coming from someone of your experience, it means a lot to me.. As I wrote in the preceding post, I tried a prior Ingegra - about 3 or 4 years ago.. Considering that someone like you is praising the integra.. I have to rethink my opinion.. My current mc12 is non HDMI. Hence I have not heard the hd dts ma.. About 98% of my viewing is only hdtv/dish dvr. Therefore, I don't feel the need to get the dts hd ma equiped processor. You are making me reconsider.. As you know, the upgrade path never ends.. I have been enjoying my mc12 for a few years.. Unless it breaks, I would probably continue to enjoy it.. for now.. but thank you for your observations.. Considering your experience, they do mean a lot - to me! btw, was your mc12 non hd?
Edited by audvid - 12/30/12 at 7:42am
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post #38 of 49
1/13/13 at 2:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by audvid View Post

bambam, I find your post very interesting. You have followed the same path as I did. Almost exactly the same! I also started out with receivers. Onkyo actually, I think, in or about 1990. The MC1 was excellent.. and now MC12. You say that the Integra 80.2 is as good or better than your mc12? wow! Coming from someone of your experience, it means a lot to me.. As I wrote in the preceding post, I tried a prior Ingegra - about 3 or 4 years ago.. Considering that someone like you is praising the integra.. I have to rethink my opinion.. My current mc12 is non HDMI. Hence I have not heard the hd dts ma.. About 98% of my viewing is only hdtv/dish dvr. Therefore, I don't feel the need to get the dts hd ma equiped processor. You are making me reconsider.. As you know, the upgrade path never ends.. I have been enjoying my mc12 for a few years.. Unless it breaks, I would probably continue to enjoy it.. for now.. but thank you for your observations.. Considering your experience, they do mean a lot - to me! btw, was your mc12 non hd?

Audvid- I see you are still using your MC-12. I remember your thread from 3-4 years ago when you had just switched back to Lexicon after a short trial with an Onkyo pre-pro.

How did using the 5.1 analog in to your Lexicon from your blueray player workout? Is the sound any better than it was just using a standard digital (non HD) connection from your blueray player to the Lexicon? I am currently using the optical out from a PS3 into my Lexicon and wondering if I should expect a noticeable improvement in DTS-MA and other hi rez formats upgrading to a blueray player with 5.1 analog outs.

David
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post #39 of 49
1/13/13 at 8:15pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdlynch View Post

Audvid- I see you are still using your MC-12. I remember your thread from 3-4 years ago when you had just switched back to Lexicon after a short trial with an Onkyo pre-pro.

How did using the 5.1 analog in to your Lexicon from your blueray player workout? Is the sound any better than it was just using a standard digital (non HD) connection from your blueray player to the Lexicon? I am currently using the optical out from a PS3 into my Lexicon and wondering if I should expect a noticeable improvement in DTS-MA and other hi rez formats upgrading to a blueray player with 5.1 analog outs.

David
I did not do any critical evaluation. The integra processor experience was annoying enough that I stopped all further evaluations and have been enjoying my MC12. I did connect the Panasonic Blue ray plaer via 5.1 to my mc12 for a while. Now I use oppo 93 and am using only the toslink connection. I have done no a/b comparision to give you an informed opinion. Sorry!

How ever, I am quite surprised with bambam's comments that he likes the Integra better.. He followed the same path I did and as I wrote, I would find his opinion valuable. How ever, considering the prior fiasco with the integra, I chose not to try out the integra 80.2 - although it was available pretty cheap for $1200 on videogon (the onkyo version of the same). Bambam has apparently spent a lot of money on the lexicon processors and I am rather surprised that he likes the Integra.. May be you should consider one and let us know? biggrin.gif
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post #40 of 49
1/31/13 at 8:14am
This is a tough one. Let me just write (In the interest of full disclosure) that I am advancing in age, so I'm quite sure I don't hear as well as I did four or five decades ago. That written: I own both a MC-12B ver.4EQ and a DTC-9.8. I wish the Lexicon had balanced inputs, but that's the only caveat I have with the unit. Whether delivering redbook CD, SACD, or analog the MC-12B is fantastic. If you have to keep up with every new invention, then one has to consider the MC-12B antiquated, but where will we be ten years from now? 32K video? 36 speaker surround sound? If you subscribe to the theory that video can only be perceived by ones own human eye limitations and audio can only be perceived by ones own human ear limitations, then upgrades should stop at THAT point of diminishing returns....especially from a financial standpoint. The DTC-9.8 offered the latest CODEC's, HDMI I/O's, and video processing to 1080P. My only caveat with this unit is the amount of heat generated. If you rack it, you WILL fry the video processor and most likely any sensative unit directly above it in the rack. Other than that, the Integra does everything very well. Comparing the two units comes down to what's important to the user. With the Integra, you're looking at less cables...which could translate to a lot of money for some (Not in this forum). With the Lexicon, I use a Octava HDSA71 that allows me to input HDMI and multi-channel SACD inputs; Then output multi-channel analog to the Lexicon. This setup required the use of a DVDO Edge video processor. Lots of cables!!!! Conclusion: I use the Lexicon as my head for a dedicated music room and I could not be happier. I could spend more money upgrading, but I can't hear THAT well enough to jusify the cost. The Lexicon was and is a tremendous audio processor for the current audio technology and by the time something revolutionary is introduced to the audiophile public, I'll be feeding with a straw or pushing up daisy's. I use the Integra as my head for my dedicated theater room and I could not be happier. It's driving a SXRD for video with the added assistance of the DVDO video processor. The surround sound is as good as it gets for movies. The sound is clean and distortion free. The 7.1 channel setup is all I need to enjoy the current level of movie and television technology. I'm sure there are audiophiles that will say there is a huge difference between a $5,000.00 Benz LP-S and a $15,000.00 Clearaudio Goldfinger phono cartridge, but; I've heard both on the same setup and I can't hear a $10,000.00 difference whatsoever. So it (and it always does IMHO) comes down to money and how much you want to spend that makes you feel like the upgrade is worth the money. We ALL have perfectly good audio equipment boxed up in the garage, basement or attic collecting dust. My advice: Keep all of your contacts clean and make sure your power supplies are even cleaner. That's the real key to clean sound and vision!
Edited by TRT - 1/31/13 at 8:20am
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post #41 of 49
1/31/13 at 8:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRT View Post

This is a tough one. Let me just write (In the interest of full disclosure) that I am advancing in age, so I'm quite sure I don't hear as well as I did four or five decades ago. That written: I own both a MC-12B ver.4EQ and a DTC-9.8.

The DTC-9.8 is an old unit and it not competitive with today's Integra/Onkyo prepros.

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post #42 of 49
1/31/13 at 8:54am
Hi Kal. My old ADS L-520 studio speakers aren't competitive with current speaker technology either, but after 35+ years, they sound terrific! Crossovers are better. Cone technology is better. Internal bracing is better. I understand the upgrades in quality that second and third + generations of equipment can produce. I was merely responding to the OP's question which was leaning toward upgrade or not. I'm sure Magico will come up with a pair of speakers in the future that will review and/or bench-test better than the Q7's. My point in the previous post suggest that the current owner of a pair of Q7's can buy the (Q8's) but will they really sound so much better that it justifies spending the money to replace a pair of $185,000.00 speakers? Can one hear THAT well? I'm not lobbying for the audio manufacturers so my opinion isn't swayed one way or the other. I'll probably upgrade something in the future just cause' We're only human and we like toys, but when I can make a pair of speaker cables that can blind test even-steven with a pair of $35,000.00 cables; It gives you a moment of pause and suggest that vanity drives high-end purchases just as much as one seeking improvement.....and that's coming from the proud owner of numerous Transparent cables!
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post #43 of 49
1/31/13 at 1:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRT View Post

Hi Kal. My old ADS L-520 studio speakers aren't competitive with current speaker technology either, but after 35+ years, they sound terrific! Crossovers are better. Cone technology is better. Internal bracing is better. I understand the upgrades in quality that second and third + generations of equipment can produce. I was merely responding to the OP's question which was leaning toward upgrade or not. I'm sure Magico will come up with a pair of speakers in the future that will review and/or bench-test better than the Q7's. My point in the previous post suggest that the current owner of a pair of Q7's can buy the (Q8's) but will they really sound so much better that it justifies spending the money to replace a pair of $185,000.00 speakers? Can one hear THAT well? I'm not lobbying for the audio manufacturers so my opinion isn't swayed one way or the other. I'll probably upgrade something in the future just cause' We're only human and we like toys, but when I can make a pair of speaker cables that can blind test even-steven with a pair of $35,000.00 cables; It gives you a moment of pause and suggest that vanity drives high-end purchases just as much as one seeking improvement.....and that's coming from the proud owner of numerous Transparent cables!

Wow!  I was not addressing your general argument but only the specific components I singled out.  

 

BTW, I might have responded to the rest if I had read it.  Long posts are more easily read with occasional paragraphing.

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post #44 of 49
1/31/13 at 1:12pm
I have compared an old B&D ref 20 with a Parasounf Halo c2 when I upgraded. The difference was subtle. And I kept a dedicated 2-channel pre-amp because true double blinds (I am a scientist! quoting from young frankenstein) showed that the C2 while very good was not as good at 2-ch as a preamp.
I now upgraded to a CBIII with extreme DaCS AND i still keep the parasound in my rack. You are welcome to audition - the difference in sound clarity for multi-ch or 2-ch is insane. Not subtle at all. all the codecs to me are a little overrated. the CBIII puts put great simple sound regardless of codes or room correctoion.
I have never tested an Integra
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post #45 of 49
3/8/13 at 1:53pm
Well, I have extensively auditioned the Marantz AV8801, in my system, and still can tell a rather significant SQ difference in favor of my Lexicon MC12Bv5EQ. Granted, the Marantz sounds awesome, and most people would be more than satisfied. However, for my ears the Lexicon simply has a much more natural sound. I am not a big dedicated music person, but, one must realize all movies have extensive use of music in their soundtracks. This is where the Lexicon leaves the Marantz behind.

If I had a need for HDMI switching, or, required Audyssey EQ, or simply had to have the latest and greatest, then, keeping the Marantz might have made my choice. I am using an Oppo BDP-103 with analog outs into my MC12's 5.1 input and could not be happier. I am enjoying all the codecs that Blu-ray has to offer. To me sound quality is THE most important factor in my decision. I don't mind all the analog cables.

The Lexicon platform may be over ten years old, but, that only tells me how good of a processor it is to still compare well to the newest products on the market.
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post #46 of 49
3/8/13 at 2:12pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdlynch View Post

Well, I have extensively auditioned the Marantz AV8801, in my system, and still can tell a rather significant SQ difference in favor of my Lexicon MC12Bv5EQ. Granted, the Marantz sounds awesome, and most people would be more than satisfied. However, for my ears the Lexicon simply has a much more natural sound. I am not a big dedicated music person, but, one must realize all movies have extensive use of music in their soundtracks. This is where the Lexicon leaves the Marantz behind.

If I had a need for HDMI switching, or, required Audyssey EQ, or simply had to have the latest and greatest, then, keeping the Marantz might have made my choice. I am using an Oppo BDP-103 with analog outs into my MC12's 5.1 input and could not be happier. I am enjoying all the codecs that Blu-ray has to offer. To me sound quality is THE most important factor in my decision. I don't mind all the analog cables.

The Lexicon platform may be over ten years old, but, that only tells me how good of a processor it is to still compare well to the newest products on the market.
Glad we both agree.. The "natural" sound of Lexicon is quite different. I found the Anthem to be equally good.. I am intrigued by bambam's comment about the Integra. They are cheap in the used market. But I also don't need HDMI switching.. Did you do a/b comparision between analog 5.1 connections and using using digital connection forgoing dts MA/DD HD? I didn't do such an evaluation and am curious to know whether you found a superior sound with analog 5.1 connection. I also use the oppo - the 93
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post #47 of 49
3/8/13 at 3:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by audvid View Post

Glad we both agree.. The "natural" sound of Lexicon is quite different. I found the Anthem to be equally good.. I am intrigued by bambam's comment about the Integra. They are cheap in the used market. But I also don't need HDMI switching.. Did you do a/b comparision between analog 5.1 connections and using using digital connection forgoing dts MA/DD HD? I didn't do such an evaluation and am curious to know whether you found a superior sound with analog 5.1 connection. I also use the oppo - the 93

Yes, I did compare straight digital with DD and DTS against the 5.1 analog with MA/DD HD. I could tell a noticeable difference. To me; the diffference would be similar to comparing SD DVD video quality to that of Blu-ray. After experiencing the HD audio soundtracks I have been watching movies I have seen previously with a new appreciation for their soundtrack. It has re-energized my excitement with my system.
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post #48 of 49
3/19/13 at 12:46am
there was no comparison between onkyo and lexicon , its totally 2 different grade product . the best choice was mc12b hd , u can have lexicon's sound n hd audio as well .

another choice was a quality bluray player decode connect to lexicon for proccessing n preamp. this option still alot better than using 5509 for sure .
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post #49 of 49
3/29/13 at 5:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdlynch View Post

Yes, I did compare straight digital with DD and DTS against the 5.1 analog with MA/DD HD. I could tell a noticeable difference. To me; the diffference would be similar to comparing SD DVD video quality to that of Blu-ray. After experiencing the HD audio soundtracks I have been watching movies I have seen previously with a new appreciation for their soundtrack. It has re-energized my excitement with my system.

Hey David, this is Golam! Good to see you here....
BTW, remember my venture with room treatment? It didn't really go well, since I have carpeted floor and a little large sized sofas. I tried in many different ways, but couldn't identify noticeable difference. So, I returned those - incurring loss in shipping (around a couple of hundred bucks).
Just wanted to share with you.
I am having Integra 80.2 with Audyssey XT32. It sounds pretty good to me since I do 70% movies - Sci-Fi and Action types (like MI -3, Borne Identity etc.). But actively thinking of Anthem D2v. Haven't made up my mind. Thought about Lexicon MC12 as well, as I have Lexicon speakers in my car, but possibly move to Anthem, if I do at all. Like to have the room correction thing!
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