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Elemental Designs A7-450 - Page 3

post #61 of 185
Thread Starter 
thanks bud.
post #62 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

It's possible, however what we're hearing in that video is just as you state, the mechanical actions of items moving in the room, and air movement via the ports perhaps.

To utilize tones this low, you've got to determine the actual distortion level of the sine wave generator to begin with. Many so called tone generators are heavily fraught with high levels of distortion.

Also, and most importantly here, is the threshold of human hearing at these low frequencies. Our hearing and detection of these very low frequencies is anything but linear. It varies according to level, and with frequency. The threshold at 10hz is approximately 98-100dB. Conversely, the threshold at 20hz, one octave higher, is about 70db.

That said a pure, undistorted tone, at of 10hz and 100 db is barely audible. However, 100dB at 20hz is 30dB above audibility. Playing loud, low frequency tones indoor, creates all types of noisy artifacts in structural movement, driver noise, port noise, items within the room vibrating etc. I prefer to purchase small sticky back felt pads, and with tone generators at various frequencies, go around the room and seek out noise producing items,...and silence them. There is even a hand held, hard wired remote called "The Rattler", just for such use.

Additionally, even if you fed the drivers a pure 10hz tone, and you were in a concrete bunker with no moving parts and pieces for room noise, the sound emanating from a sub system is likely to be a significant amount of upper harmonic distortion.

All said, still the room shaking, and all the accompanying sounds are still very exciting, and add a wonderful visceral component to the HT experience.


Thanks for sharing

I was simply clarifying for the statement mentioned about the video. As to the comments that you have made, I'm not sure where your information comes from that ideal conditions would allow for auditory recognition of a 10hz tone. Biological studies have shown that within ideal lab conditions, the lowest pure sine wave that is recognized as audible is 12hz. It doesn't matter about the pressure level being exerted by the sound wave, its related to the the human cochlea and the limitations of the organ of Corti.

The reason that "we" enjoy these "subsonic" frequencies is that the human body can actually detect frequencies down to 5hz, so our brain is still being stimulated. Reproduction of these frequencies is often very important because many musical/theatrical pieces utilize these frequencies for that very point, they are made to be "felt" and not "heard", and thus you are experiencing the complete work of art properly.

Now in reference to the original purpose of this thread. Your A7-450 seems like an excellent product, and your entire entertainment package really seems immaculate. I unfortunately have a bad history with eD rooted from interactions with Ben Milne, but it definitely seems the company has grown in positive directions!
post #63 of 185
Thread Starter 
Ben has been gone for a very long time and isn't associated with Ed any longer.
post #64 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by nezff View Post

Ben has been gone for a very long time and isn't associated with Ed any longer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaoticG8R View Post

... but it definitely seems the company has grown in positive directions!


Like I said, the readings you are getting along with the build quality are really superb! Can't wait to see more from the finished install.
post #65 of 185
Thread Starter 
post #66 of 185
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaoticG8R View Post


Like I said, the readings you are getting along with the build quality are really superb! Can't wait to see more from the finished install.

Thanks.
post #67 of 185
Quote:

Humans cant hear below 20Hz. I was just wondering how that sound is audible, especially through my tiny PC speakers?
post #68 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi View Post


Humans cant hear below 20Hz.

I think you're wrong about that.
post #69 of 185
Well the general audible range for humans is 20-20000Hz. Of course it varies, especially at the high end due to age. Unless I am an Elephant, there is no way I can HEAR a 10Hz note. May be some people can hear the upper teens.

Even if we assume that ALL humans can hear below 20Hz, how come that youtube sound is audible on my tiny PC speakers.
post #70 of 185
Thread Starter 
The sounds I heard in the room were mostly the doors rattling.
post #71 of 185
The youtube audio doesnt sound like doors rattling to me. I may have to hear it again. I am shutting down my PC now. May be later.
post #72 of 185
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

The youtube audio doesnt sound like doors rattling to me. I may have to hear it again. I am shutting down my PC now. May be later.

air moving, window moving, doors in the rear of the room moving etc..
post #73 of 185
So it is not really the audible sound from the sub playing 10-19Hz. Then why all that money and effort :-)
post #74 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

So it is not really the audible sound from the sub playing 10-19Hz. Then why all that money and effort :-)

Are you serious?
post #75 of 185
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

So it is not really the audible sound from the sub playing 10-19Hz. Then why all that money and effort :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

Humans cant hear below 20Hz. I was just wondering how that sound is audible, especially through my tiny PC speakers?

You are the one that said that humans cant hear that low. Subs are usually tuned to 20hz. I guess you dont think its that big of a deal that is is playing lower and this loud.
post #76 of 185
It is the effects of the room we hear and adds to the effects.
post #77 of 185
Well if you guys want to spend big bucks to hear the sound of the windows and doors rattling instead of the actual sound from the sub LOL, that is your choice. I dont like the windows and doors or anything in my room rattling when I play my sub.
post #78 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by nezff View Post

You are the one that said that humans cant hear that low. Subs are usually tuned to 20hz. I guess you dont think its that big of a deal that is is playing lower and this loud.

I meant that humans cant hear the frequency below some 20Hz. The windows and doors rattling is the effect of the sub playing 10-19Hz but it is not the actual sound of the sub. The windows and doors may be rattling at 10-19Hz but the sound that they produce due to that rattling may not be 10-19Hz. Otherwise you would have heard the sound from the sub instead of just the rattling.

Instead of playing 10-19Hz inside the house where things rattle, play the sub outside in the drive way and check if any sound from the sub is audible. of course you dont want to haul that 250lb sub again :-)
post #79 of 185
Also, if I can hear that sound through my tiny PC speakers without a sub, it is not 10-19Hz

Enjoy the rattling :-)
post #80 of 185
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

Well if you guys want to spend big bucks to hear the sound of the windows and doors rattling instead of the actual sound from the sub LOL, that is your choice. I dont like the windows and doors or anything in my room rattling when I play my sub.

I can hear the subs playing a certain frequencies that low. I can't understand what your hang up is with spending money on very good subs that play below tuning.
post #81 of 185
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi View Post


I meant that humans cant hear the frequency below some 20Hz. The windows and doors rattling is the effect of the sub playing 10-19Hz but it is not the actual sound of the sub. The windows and doors may be rattling at 10-19Hz but the sound that they produce due to that rattling may not be 10-19Hz. Otherwise you would have heard the sound from the sub instead of just the rattling.

Instead of playing 10-19Hz inside the house where things rattle, play the sub outside in the drive way and check if any sound from the sub is audible. of course you dont want to haul that 250lb sub again :-)

I never said that that was what you should hear. I just told you that the doors and other thing were rattling at 10-11hz. I don't get none of that with higher frequencies.
post #82 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

Well if you guys want to spend big bucks to hear the sound of the windows and doors rattling instead of the actual sound from the sub LOL, that is your choice. I dont like the windows and doors or anything in my room rattling when I play my sub.

It's not so much about wanting to hear the sounds of the windows and doors rattling. Rather it is about knowing that you have sufficient output down low that can rattle windows and doors.

In other words the rattles are a side effect of playing loud and low. I don't think anybody likes the rattles (they are distracting), but many do enjoy playing loud and low. So the solution is to find a way to treat the rattles so that you can play loud and low without the rattles.

I take it you don't play loud and low?
post #83 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by nezff View Post

I can hear the subs playing a certain frequencies that low. I can't understand what your hang up is with spending money on very good subs that play below tuning.

Because you just dont hear them. They may play even single digit but what is the point if all you hear is the doors and windows rattling at low frequencies and not the actual sound of the sub?
post #84 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

So it is not really the audible sound from the sub playing 10-19Hz. Then why all that money and effort :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

Because you just dont hear them. They may play even single digit but what is the point if all you hear is the doors and windows rattling at low frequencies and not the actual sound of the sub?

You're right that very low bass (say below 20Hz) might not be audible, but they can be perceived in other ways. You hear people talk about bass that is tactile, pressurizing effects, etc. These all add to the bass experience.

However, to achieve these effects you need to play these very low frequencies at high output. Hence the need for large and powerful subs.

I don't know what subs you have or how loudly you play, but it seems like you've not experienced truly great bass - bass that can not only be heard but felt.
post #85 of 185
Indeed. Experience something like the Flight of the Phoenix crash sequence and then tell us what you think....gives a whole new experience.
post #86 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luis Gabriel Gerena View Post

Indeed. Experience something like the Flight of the Phoenix crash sequence and then tell us what you think....gives a whole new experience.

That scene is awesome but it does not demostrate the low end. My room makes no noises and I am flat to 7hz. What you feel are bass waves and lots of pressure. It adds to the experience of a movie for sure without any extra room noises.
post #87 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

That scene is awesome but it does not demostrate the low end. My room makes no noises and I am flat to 7hz. What you feel are bass waves and lots of pressure. It adds to the experience of a movie for sure without any extra room noises.

What scene would you recommend to demonstrate the low end?

If your room makes no noises then you must have a solidly constructed room. I recall from pictures that it's like a concrete bunker basement right?
post #88 of 185
I guess it depends on what you refer to as low end...not all of us can do 7hz flat....I was referring to under 20Hz which was his question and it has plenty there.....
post #89 of 185
I am still wondering if Mupi is joking around about this or not.... I mean, that's like wondering why people use video screens larger than they actually need.
You just have to ask yourself the question: Why not??
post #90 of 185
Rattles can be a pain...but I do like when my floor moves as well, as the couch shaking...another thing that bothered me was the projector would shake slightly and the screen would even move.

The craziest thing is how much my soffit/siding rattles outside during very heavy bass scenes...I went outside for the first time a couple weeks ago during the avalanche scene of the mummy just to see if there was any impact outside the house...never realized the noises coming from the house...I can hear the soffitt and siding shaking along with the bass waves...I could hear it when Iam more then 200 yards away...and I want more bass...WHY ? Everyone who has been over think Iam crazy...Why do we keep insisting on louder bass? I know I want more, but WHY? Must be something wrong with us!
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