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Darbee vision darblet - Page 245

post #7321 of 7863
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobnegi View Post

Well TDi, I noticed the same thing a while back, AVS has an inordinate amount of thin skinned, highly opinionated individuals, that have never been wrong about anything, ever.

I would have to agree, your post was difficult to read, but what you said was worth reading, so I suffered through it. Still a great place to gather info though, one of the best actually
Who is TDi? What are you talking about?
post #7322 of 7863
And who you callin thin skinned? Eh? BTW Ill freely admit that I have been wrong. It was that one time when I thought I was wrong, but I was really right.
post #7323 of 7863
Hi,

I have heard and read great things about the darbee and want to get one, but I am having a question regarding the chain it will be connected. I tried to find that in this long thread but cannot simply seem to find it .

BDP 103
Apple TV
Roku 3


Connected to

Denon X4000

connected to

Darbee

connected to

JVC Rs4810

Will this connection chain work?
post #7324 of 7863
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I am not sure I followed what you are trying to accomplish. Simply place the Darblet in the HDMI output from the Denon to the display. That way all video sources receive the Darblet processing.

Mark Haflich has been saying for awhile that the Darblet works best at the source resolution, before any scaling. Jim Peterson from Lumagen also said this recently in the Sony VPL-VW1000ES thread. I am going to change my HDMI distribution setup (see link in my signature) given this new (to me) revelation. I don't recall ever hearing about this important detail before, but perhaps I missed it? Argh!

Mark
post #7325 of 7863
Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post

Mark Haflich has been saying for awhile that the Darblet works best at the source resolution, before any scaling. Jim Peterson from Lumagen also said this recently in the Sony VPL-VW1000ES thread. I am going to change my HDMI distribution setup (see link in my signature) given this new (to me) revelation. I don't recall ever hearing about this important detail before, but perhaps I missed it? Argh!

Mark

Hey Mark, my head explodes whenever I look at your HDMI diagram. Compexity over my paygrade and I can appreciate the time that went into it. Maybe you're just the guy I need to talk with about understanding the ins and outs of my Lumagen smile.gif BTW if you decide you need 3rd Darblet let me know. Mine might be looking for a new home soon.
post #7326 of 7863
Quote:
Originally Posted by jollyguy23 View Post

Hi,

I have heard and read great things about the darbee and want to get one, but I am having a question regarding the chain it will be connected. I tried to find that in this long thread but cannot simply seem to find it .

BDP 103
Apple TV
Roku 3


Connected to

Denon X4000

connected to

Darbee

connected to

JVC Rs4810

Will this connection chain work?

It should. Most people have the Darbee as the last item in the chain before the display. Advice is to use 6 foot or longer HDMI cables for the Darbee.
post #7327 of 7863
Quote:
Originally Posted by erkq View Post

Who is TDi? What are you talking about?

Oh, it was like post #254. His post was not very well formated or grammatically correct, so a member was ripping into him....
post #7328 of 7863
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobnegi View Post

so a member was ripping into him....


I disagree, there was no "ripping."

When it was pointed out, apparently synonymous with "ripping" in your book, TDi immediately went off the deep end and then later apoligized for his tiraid response. BTW, I was like most everyone else, I skipped his wall of text for a lack of readability which was the reason it was critiqued in the first place wink.gif
post #7329 of 7863
Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post

Mark Haflich has been saying for awhile that the Darblet works best at the source resolution, before any scaling. Jim Peterson from Lumagen also said this recently in the Sony VPL-VW1000ES thread. I am going to change my HDMI distribution setup (see link in my signature) given this new (to me) revelation. I don't recall ever hearing about this important detail before, but perhaps I missed it? Argh!

Mark
I'm not sure I follow you, are you saying the Darbee is best utilized before feeding the Lumagen and not after it? That seems to be contrary to what I've read here previously, that the Darbee is best situated just before the display input.
post #7330 of 7863
Thanks for confirming. I will be using a HDMI longer than 6 feet.
post #7331 of 7863
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

As a fact, and for technical reasons on how it works, the darbleevision process works better on lower resolution sources because basically the algs are working on original source lines. That is the basic reason the Lumagen applies the process right after the source input and before any up conversion. This is not to say it doen't improve stuff upscaled to 1080p and that many don't apply the Darblet after upscaling. I apply it after upscaling everything to 1080p by my Lumagen which doesn't have a Darblet built in. People defend what they do and say it works great. I know, engineering wise, it would work better if I ran my sources through a HDMI switch and applied the process before input into my Lumagen. My projector upscales the darbeeized 1080p to UHD or 4K.

Circling back around to this point. The DVP algorithm seeks real information and will enhance (at any pixel resolution) the information that it finds. It will handle excellent quality SD material, better than crappy HD material. It will handle excellent HD material better than excellent SD material. The more real information presented, the better DVP will work. 4K has the potential for presenting more real information to the algorithm, so with real time native 4K DVP processing the result has a the most realistic appearance compared to SD and HD. The best I have seen is feature film movie frames decoded from a studio master D5 tape to uncompressed frame files, DVP processed, re-encoded and played out on D5 tape, uncompressed, to a studio reference monitor. Utterly jaw dropping!

-DD
Edited by DarbeeDr - 12/4/13 at 11:39pm
post #7332 of 7863
OK. So now how about a campaign that might raise $100K now. Figure out how much a 4K Darblet in a metal box, yada yada would cost to make, what marked up it should sell for, and offer it for a little less as a pledge reward. Development of the alg package for 4K and identification of carrying chips etc would present another product licensing opportunity, the holly grail so to speak. Further, though there has been silence on the subject, medical imaging will likely be at higher resolutions now or soon that let's call it low def 1080p. Two birds with one stone.
post #7333 of 7863
Quote:
Originally Posted by keenan View Post

I'm not sure I follow you, are you saying the Darbee is best utilized before feeding the Lumagen and not after it? That seems to be contrary to what I've read here previously, that the Darbee is best situated just before the display input.

For most people having the Darbee placed as the last item in the chain before the display is the most practical and cheapest choice. However, Lumagen found that doing the Darbee processing before the Radiances other magic was applied provided better results. I personally have 2 Darbees. One on Tivo output and one on Oppo output. I find the PQ improvement worth the extra $ especially on the Tivo output.
post #7334 of 7863
Quote:
Originally Posted by keenan View Post

I'm not sure I follow you, are you saying the Darbee is best utilized before feeding the Lumagen and not after it? That seems to be contrary to what I've read here previously, that the Darbee is best situated just before the display input.

Given some of the follow-on posts, I think your question has been answered. However, I think if we just clarified to say that the Darblet will work BEST if placed before the device that scales the image (display, AVR, etc.). That said, I don't think most should obsess about this, if the Darblet can only be placed in the chain after the image is scaled; it will be fine. I have been running my double Darblets this way since I got them.

I simply wanted to point this obscure (fringe) fact out for those that have the ability to move the Darblet, and who would obsess about it.

Come on in...the water is fine!

Mark
post #7335 of 7863
Quote:
Originally Posted by hodges69 View Post

Flabbergasted? I seriously doubt that....what the Darbee does,it does very subtly. The change is slight...but noticeable.The true litmus test is to watch TV with the Darbee on for a week....then turn it off...If you don't miss what the device does after that,return it.

Was not subtle for me was noticeable, set it up, fired up the projector, hit the hi-def button on the Darbee remote and could clearly see the difference especially with text, in fact I had to turn it down a bit, have it set to 45% now, awesome image, so for me it was money well spent.
post #7336 of 7863
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsinger View Post

For most people having the Darbee placed as the last item in the chain before the display is the most practical and cheapest choice. However, Lumagen found that doing the Darbee processing before the Radiances other magic was applied provided better results. I personally have 2 Darbees. One on Tivo output and one on Oppo output. I find the PQ improvement worth the extra $ especially on the Tivo output.

Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post

Given some of the follow-on posts, I think your question has been answered. However, I think if we just clarified to say that the Darblet will work BEST if placed before the device that scales the image (display, AVR, etc.). That said, I don't think most should obsess about this, if the Darblet can only be placed in the chain after the image is scaled; it will be fine. I have been running my double Darblets this way since I got them.

I simply wanted to point this obscure (fringe) fact out for those that have the ability to move the Darblet, and who would obsess about it.

Come on in...the water is fine!

Mark
The logic behind placing the DVP before any scaling/vidproc does make a lot a sense, I may have to play with that positioning myself, although the end result may be a much lighter wallet! smile.gif
post #7337 of 7863
Hmm, I wonder what the equivalent would be of designing a "Darblet" for audio...
post #7338 of 7863
It still does a great job if placed after the upscalar but it will do a better job if placed before any upscaling. Many let their projector or display do all the upscaling and in this situation placing the Darblet just before the projector will do the same great job. Hope this helps.
post #7339 of 7863
Quote:
Originally Posted by muffinmcfluffin View Post

Hmm, I wonder what the equivalent would be of designing a "Darblet" for audio...


Audio devices like certain DAC units that raise the bits artificially. The Darbee algs are much more complex and more on the order of deinterlacing but even that is not a good analogy. You can read the Darbee white paper on how it does what it does.
post #7340 of 7863
I've been reading out the Darbee a bit and was curious about a few things:

-It appears the unit must be sent to Darbee Vision for software/firmware upgrades, roughly how many updates have there been since the launch of the Darbee Darblet in April learns year?

-If you were to buy a used Darbee how would you know if it's been updated/upgraded to the latest software/firmware?

-in my setup all of my A/V equipment is in one rack at the back of the room so I could either put the Darbee on the stand in the back of the room next to my processor with as short as a 1 foot HDMI cable and a longer one wound up (read that at least 6' HDMI is desirable) and then run the Darbee to my JVC projector through a nearly 20' HDMI cable, or I could put the Darbee next to my projector on the ceiling inside my projector cabinet (would rather not do this as it'd be more difficult to access the Darbee)

-I use primarily all HD content. I'd say 50% PS4/PS3/Xbox1, 45% Blu Ray movies, 5% Netflix streaming. Would I presumably be switching Darbee settings between my 3 primary video sources or seeing as they're all HD (minus some of the non HD Netflix material) would I be likely OK leaving the Darbee at the same setting all the time.
Edited by sk576c - 12/5/13 at 3:58pm
post #7341 of 7863
Quote:
Originally Posted by sk576c View Post

I've been reading out the Darbee a bit and was curious about a few things:

-It appears the unit must be sent to Darbee Vision for software/firmware upgrades, roughly of many updates have there been since the launch of the Darbee Darblet in April learns year?

-If you were to buy a used Darbee how would you K of if it's been updated/upgraded to the latest software/firmware?

-in my setup all of my A/V equipment is in one rack at the back of the room so I could either put the Darbee on the stand in the back of the room next to my processor with as short as a 1 foot HDMI cable and or a longer one wound up (read that at least 6' HDMI is desirable) and then run the Darbee to my JVC projector through a nearly 20' HDMI cable, or I could put the Darbee next to my projector on the ceiling inside my projector cabinet (would rather not do this as it'd be more difficult to access the Darbee)

-I use primarily all HD content. I'd say 75% PS4/PS3/Xbox1, 20% Blu Ray movies, 5% Netflix streaming. Would I presumably be switching Darbee settings between my 3 primary video sources or seeing as they're all HD (minus some of the non HD Netflix material) would I be likely OK leaving the Darbee at the same setting all the time.

 

- I have had my two Darblets for over a year, and there have been no opdates, so this has been a non-issue to date.

 

- The menu screen displays the firmware version.

 

- It should not matter if you place the Darblet close to your equipment rack, or close to the projector.  I have done both, and never noticed any difference.  Of course, you need to be able to point the remote control at the Darblet, so make sure you have a line of sight, or use an IR extender.

 

- I set the Darblet and forget it (I use HD 60% for everything).  Whether you find it useful to tweak the settings per source is a personal preference thing.

post #7342 of 7863
The issue is not where it is placed, at the last exit point to the long HDMI cable to the projector or at the projector except perhaps to eliminate HDMI handshake issues. The issue is where it is placed, before or after ANY upscaling.

if I remember correctly, there was only one firmware update and it was shortly after product release. If buying used, ask the seller to give you the firmware version number that is displayed.
post #7343 of 7863
Quote:
Originally Posted by sk576c View Post

-It appears the unit must be sent to Darbee Vision for software/firmware upgrades, roughly how many updates have there been since the launch of the Darbee Darblet in April learns year?

As far as I'm aware, there has only been one firmware update, to correct an issue with YCbCr color space not being processed correctly.
Quote:
-If you were to buy a used Darbee how would you know if it's been updated/upgraded to the latest software/firmware?

The original firmware only allowed setting changes in increments of 5% at a time. The newer firmware added an option (which has to be enabled in the setup menu) to make changes in 1% increments.
Quote:
-I use primarily all HD content. I'd say 50% PS4/PS3/Xbox1, 45% Blu Ray movies, 5% Netflix streaming. Would I presumably be switching Darbee settings between my 3 primary video sources or seeing as they're all HD (minus some of the non HD Netflix material) would I be likely OK leaving the Darbee at the same setting all the time.

Personal preference, which only you can decide by experimenting. I consider the Darblet a "set it and forget it" device, and leave it set at Hi-Def 40% for everything.
post #7344 of 7863
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

- I have had my two Darblets for over a year, and there have been no opdates, so this has been a non-issue to date.

- The menu screen displays the firmware version.

- It should not matter if you place the Darblet close to your equipment rack, or close to the projector.  I have done both, and never noticed any difference.  Of course, you need to be able to point the remote control at the Darblet, so make sure you have a line of sight, or use an IR extender.

- I set the Darblet and forget it (I use HD 60% for everything).  Whether you find it useful to tweak the settings per source is a personal preference thing.
Jerry, you say you set yours to HD at 60%, but most others here like 40% to 45% at the HD setting.
So you don't notice any 'digital artifacts' at 60%?

Also, do you treat it differently when watching a cable TV source, vs. Blu-ray?
post #7345 of 7863

on my setup I change the Darblets settings based on the source. For Blu-Ray I use HD at 45. For DirectTV I use Gaming at 50 and for OTA HD at 40.

 

when setting the Darblet, I usually set it high enough to see an undesirable effect then start lowering it until the picture retains the added depth and sharpness but loses the grainy look, or the ringing on high contrast scenes. The features that are most helpful for setup are the split screen, and the ability to turn the units processing off and on.

post #7346 of 7863
I have a DVP5000 arriving today and have a few questions. \

1) I have read of issues with Deep Color. Has anyone successfully used their PS3 with deep color set to on or Auto? (which with a deep color compatible display will up covert it to 12 bits)

2) I did my calibration with Deep color on auto and the PS3 upcoverting to 12 bit. If I turn it off, will that affect other aspects of my calibration?

3) I know there was a firmware fix to ensure that if you input YcbCr in you get the same out. Any one have issues with this since?

4) Has anyone had issues with the video range getting messed up? I use extended, so I am hoping it will not alter it to 16-235. I don't think deep color has any affect on WTW or BTB levels?


These are all things I can check with test patterns and forcing the PJ into RGB more to see if it looks messed up to confirm YcbCr, and I can force HDMI mode to limited to see if the signal is still coming through as Extended.....but I thought I see if anyone has experience with these issues in advance and can point anything to be aware of.
post #7347 of 7863
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Norseman View Post


Jerry, you say you set yours to HD at 60%, but most others here like 40% to 45% at the HD setting.
So you don't notice any 'digital artifacts' at 60%?

Also, do you treat it differently when watching a cable TV source, vs. Blu-ray?

 

I don't notice any digital artifacts.  I'm sure I have heard others who use HD with at least 60%--I guess it depends on both the equipment and the viewer's preference.

 

I try and avoid complexity when it comes to video.  For example, I have carefully calibrated my display using CalMAN and a colorimeter, and once what I consider the optimum settings have been determined, I don't change the settings for different sources.  For the same reason, once I arrived at the 60% HD setting (which I determined watching DirecTV HD content), I leave it on this setting for outer sources as well (Oppo BD player, AppleTV).  So, I am definitely a "set it and forget it" kind of guy.

post #7348 of 7863
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

The issue is not where it is placed, at the last exit point to the long HDMI cable to the projector or at the projector except perhaps to eliminate HDMI handshake issues. The issue is where it is placed, before or after ANY upscaling.

if I remember correctly, there was only one firmware update and it was shortly after product release. If buying used, ask the seller to give you the firmware version number that is displayed.

Can anyone confirm the current firmware and software #s for the Darbee.

I got the following information from the guy who I may buy one from.

Firmware is 1.3.21 and software version is 2.8.2214.
post #7349 of 7863
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Norseman View Post

Jerry, you say you set yours to HD at 60%, but most others here like 40% to 45% at the HD setting.
So you don't notice any 'digital artifacts' at 60%?

Different displays may interact with Darbee processing differently. For example, I have both a JVC D-ILA projector and a Sharp DLP projector. The setting I use for the JVC can look a little too harsh on the DLP, so I may turn the Darblet down when using that projector.
post #7350 of 7863
Quote:
Originally Posted by curlyjive View Post

1) I have read of issues with Deep Color. Has anyone successfully used their PS3 with deep color set to on or Auto? (which with a deep color compatible display will up covert it to 12 bits)

There is no software encoded with Deep Color, and little reason to turn that setting on. If it gives you handshaking problems, turn Deep Color off.
Quote:
4) Has anyone had issues with the video range getting messed up? I use extended, so I am hoping it will not alter it to 16-235. I don't think deep color has any affect on WTW or BTB levels?

The Darblet should not affect any of your calibration values.
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