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Official 2012 Sharp LC-XXLE640U/XXC6400U - Page 18

post #511 of 1346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaid View Post

No, it is content protection. The optical path is not HDCP compliant, and the TV has no way of knowing what type of device you have on the other end of the optical cable. It's a stupid rule, but it's not Sharp's fault, they have to do this in order to remain HDCP compliant.

Probably be easier if you joint point me directly to the specific [stupid] rule that you refer to where audio optical pass-thru violates HDCP. While you're at it, perhaps some explanation as to why a DTS audio mp4 file on a USB drive plugged into the television has no problem passing the digital bitstream via the optical output.
Edited by KryptoNyte - 12/2/12 at 4:41pm
post #512 of 1346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaid View Post

Optical out isn't really ARC. ARC specifically refers to the HDMI Audio Return Channel.
At any rate, I got it to work properly using only HDMI. I had to set the Denon's "HDMI Control" function to "On". This didn't make sense to me at first since neither the menu nor the manual talks about ARC as being controlled by this setting. But sure enough, when I have this enabled, no sound comes from the TV speakers and instead it comes from the receiver. This works for both Netflix and regular TV.


I got ARC to work as well (Denon AVR-3311CI) and the LC70LE640u. Regular OTA TV, and the Netflix, Vudu and YouTube apps. I haven't tried any other Apps yet, but no reason to believe they wouldn't work via ARC, as well.
post #513 of 1346
Has anyone been playing around with the OPC? I'm finding that I like it alot and it seems to work quite well with a min and max setting that works for both day and night without having to constantly change it. The weird thing is that once it's on or off on one hdmi port, it's the same for all of them...although you can have seperate min/max on each port. Would have been nice to be able to turn on/off per port as well, but not that big a deal I guess. I've been playing around alot with the TV settings (just got a blue ray and been plugging those settings in as well) and I think I've finally got it where I've very pleased with everything, but I'd like to live with them for a few days before I post my final ones.
post #514 of 1346
Quote:
Originally Posted by KryptoNyte View Post

Probably be easier if you joint point me directly to the specific [stupid] rule that you refer to where audio optical pass-thru violates HDCP. While you're at it, perhaps some explanation as to why a DTS audio mp4 file on a USB drive plugged into the television has no problem passing the digital bitstream via the optical output.

I pointed you to the Wikipedia article on HDCP. The receiving side of the connection must be able to communicate back to the source that it is allowed to receive the signal. There is no provision for bidirectional communication for an optical connection, therefore it violates the rule.

Is it possible, yes. But I know of zero TVs, receivers, satellite receivers, etc, etc that have implemented anything other than the standard unidirectional optical audio.

And the reason a multimedia file on a USB drive can do whatever is because a USB drive isn't an HDCP compliant source. The key here is if the source is HDCP compliant, the whole path must also be HDCP compliant.
post #515 of 1346
Switched my Sony HT-CT 350 soundbar from optical input that I had connected for a while to HDMI. This soundbar very versatile and has 3 HDMI inputs. TV and soundbar now utilize ARC and I think it sounds better because it tries to do pseudo surround when connected over HDMI. If someone's looking to dramatically increase TV sound quality without breaking the bank I highly recommend Sony HT-CT series.
post #516 of 1346
Quote:
Originally Posted by KryptoNyte View Post

Probably be easier if you joint point me directly to the specific [stupid] rule that you refer to where audio optical pass-thru violates HDCP.

No problem.

Devices that are HDCP compliant are not allowed to re-output HDCP content over a non-HDCP digital connection unless they reduce that content to CD quality or less. This is laid out in the HDCP License Agreement which any device manufacturer that wants to make their device communicate via HDMI must agree to (and pay for). The specific passages you want include 3.3.1.1 and 3.3.2.2:

3.3.1.1: A Presentation Device shall not permit the output of Audiovisual Content to digital outputs, except, if the Presentation Device is also a Repeater, as expressly provided in Section 5.3 of these Compliance Rules. Notwithstanding the foregoing, Presentation Devices may output the audio portions of Decrypted HDCP Content that is Audiovisual Content in ... digital form in either compressed audio format or in Linear PCM format in which the transmitted information is sampled at no more than the equivalent of 48 kHz and no more than 16 bits per channel
and
3.3.2.2.2(a): Limitation on Sound Quality. Sound quality of Legacy Digital Audio Outputs when playing Linear PCM and Packed PCM streams shall be equivalent to CD-Audio Quality or less.

Again, this is not a technical limitation, this is a legal requirement that Sharp must abide by in order to be in compliance with the HDCP and HDMI licenses.

Quote:
While you're at it, perhaps some explanation as to why a DTS audio mp4 file on a USB drive plugged into the television has no problem passing the digital bitstream via the optical output.

Because that has nothing to do with HDCP. In this case, your TV is reading an unencrypted file on a USB drive, not receiving HDCP content. So there is neither a technical obstacle nor a legal obstacle for them to implement bitstreaming of this content.
post #517 of 1346
Quote:
Originally Posted by KryptoNyte View Post

Probably be easier if you joint point me directly to the specific [stupid] rule that you refer to where audio optical pass-thru violates HDCP. While you're at it, perhaps some explanation as to why a DTS audio mp4 file on a USB drive plugged into the television has no problem passing the digital bitstream via the optical output.

That also explains why I can't play a CD on either of my blu-ray players, or HD DVD player without having the TV on. It is an authentication issue between the player, receiver, and television. The only way I can play a CD without the TV on is to connect an optical cable to my old Sony RDR-GX300 DVD recorder for playback to my Onkyo TX-NR809 without powering up my 847U.
post #518 of 1346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaid View Post

No problem.

Again, this is not a technical limitation, this is a legal requirement that Sharp must abide by in order to be in compliance with the HDCP and HDMI licenses.
Because that has nothing to do with HDCP. In this case, your TV is reading an unencrypted file on a USB drive, not receiving HDCP content. So there is neither a technical obstacle nor a legal obstacle for them to implement bitstreaming of this content.

1) The device that I'm feeding the TV with is not HDCP compliant, nor is the content through that device HDCP compliant. So even though there is no HDCP present, Sharp has decided to cripple the entire HDMI input -> optical output path?

2) For input that does contain HDCP content, why does Sharp not provide an HDMI (HDCP complaint) output that is capable of passing the original encrypted HDCP bitstream, so that the signal can be passed to the receiver keeping the television in control of any audio/video sync?

I understand there may be a rule, but Sharp's engineers must be 'sharp' enough to figure out this issue internally so the end user doesn't get stuck with a simple audio/video sync problem. This is crazy to be chasing such a simple issue after dumping $2000+ on a 2012 technology television.
post #519 of 1346
Quote:
Originally Posted by KryptoNyte View Post

1) The device that I'm feeding the TV with is not HDCP compliant, nor is the content through that device HDCP compliant. So even though there is no HDCP present, Sharp has decided to cripple the entire HDMI input -> optical output path?
2) For input that does contain HDCP content, why does Sharp not provide an HDMI (HDCP complaint) output that is capable of passing the original encrypted HDCP bitstream, so that the signal can be passed to the receiver keeping the television in control of any audio/video sync?
I understand there may be a rule, but Sharp's engineers must be 'sharp' enough to figure out this issue internally so the end user doesn't get stuck with a simple audio/video sync problem. This is crazy to be chasing such a simple issue after dumping $2000+ on a 2012 technology television.

It's a nice theory that the audio delay is due to HDCP, but there is one piece of evidence that does not support it. Simply change the AV Mode to "Game" and the audio delay disappears. My theory is that this is because "Game" mode has minimal or no video processing. My assumption is that the other AV modes route the video through a hardware/software pipeline that does the video processing and that this pipeline is some hundreds of milliseconds long. This would explain why the video arrives after the audio, since the audio goes through a different (and much shorter) pipeline. I think this is now the common mode of video handling, and, thus, the AVR manufacturers have had to add the "audio delay" feature (simple, just a matter of memory, really) to compensate. I'm afraid this is the new normal so we may as well get used to it.
post #520 of 1346
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainTiVO View Post

It's a nice theory that the audio delay is due to HDCP, but there is one piece of evidence that does not support it. Simply change the AV Mode to "Game" and the audio delay disappears. My theory is that this is because "Game" mode has minimal or no video processing. My assumption is that the other AV modes route the video through a hardware/software pipeline that does the video processing and that this pipeline is some hundreds of milliseconds long. This would explain why the video arrives after the audio, since the audio goes through a different (and much shorter) pipeline. I think this is now the common mode of video handling, and, thus, the AVR manufacturers have had to add the "audio delay" feature (simple, just a matter of memory, really) to compensate. I'm afraid this is the new normal so we may as well get used to it.

You and I have exactly the same understand of why the delay exists. The other folks in this thread injected the HDCP issue, which is real as they mention. I think you may be misunderstanding; I doubt anyone thinks that HDCP is the direct cause of the video delay.

My point is that, because the television is the offender (in the audio sync problem), there should be a complete solution, embedded in the television, so that when the video delay occurs (this issue caused by the television), the entire/original ENCRYPTED signal can be DELAYED (by the television accordingly) and then passed to the audio device (in this case the receiver via HDMI).

The problem that we have now is that the receiver gets the signal before the television, so it has no knowledge of how much video delay the television is causing, so the user gets stuck with the problem of adjusting this delay on the fly by sitting there and playing with it every time you turn the TV on.
post #521 of 1346
Or better yet, if both devices are ARC compatible, that means there is bidirectional communication, which also means that the TV should be capable of reporting any video delay back to the receiver so that the receiver can make the audio delay adjustment on the fly without any user intervention.

EDIT: Okay, so based on this link;

http://www.hometheater.com/content/hdmi-audio-return-channel-conundrum

it appears the Sharp TV should already be performing the audio/video sync when all equipment is ARC compatible. So, why doesn't it?
post #522 of 1346
Quote:
Originally Posted by KryptoNyte View Post

it appears the Sharp TV should already be performing the audio/video sync when all equipment is ARC compatible. So, why doesn't it?

The Sharp does support auto lip synch; your receiver has to support it as well. With auto lip synch, the TV reports its video processing delay back to the receiver, and the receiver introduces a corresponding audio delay so the sound it plays matches the TV's display.

I have my blu-ray player connected to my Denon AVR-1913, and the Denon connected to the Sharp, all via HDMI, and I never see lip synch issues. The problem is that auto lip synch is an optional feature so not all receivers implement it. And it is not necessarily related to ARC; a receiver can implement ARC but not auto lip synch.

What exactly is the problem that you are trying to fix, anyway?
post #523 of 1346
Quote:
Originally Posted by KryptoNyte View Post

You and I have exactly the same understand of why the delay exists. The other folks in this thread injected the HDCP issue, which is real as they mention. I think you may be misunderstanding; I doubt anyone thinks that HDCP is the direct cause of the video delay.
My point is that, because the television is the offender (in the audio sync problem), there should be a complete solution, embedded in the television, so that when the video delay occurs (this issue caused by the television), the entire/original ENCRYPTED signal can be DELAYED (by the television accordingly) and then passed to the audio device (in this case the receiver via HDMI).
The problem that we have now is that the receiver gets the signal before the television, so it has no knowledge of how much video delay the television is causing, so the user gets stuck with the problem of adjusting this delay on the fly by sitting there and playing with it every time you turn the TV on.

Well, there are actually two different use cases:

1. The audio and video originate from a source outside the television (e.g. Blu Ray player). In this case the audio and video are in sync when they leave the source device and arrive at the AVR. The AVR peels of the audio stream and processes it, eventually output to speakers and passes on the video to the TV (in this case being used as a monitor). The TV the does video processing which delays the video relative to the audio. In this case, there is really only one solution: The AVR has to delay the audio since it is the one handling audio

2. The audio and video originate from the TV (e.g. using Netflix or the tuner in the TV itself). In this case the TV could match the delay in the video but it would cost money because it would mean more memory for the delay line. Since the AVR has to have the audio delay to solve scenario #1, it can also be used solve this one.

Edited:

Actually, I think I see what you are driving at. Even in scenario #1, you could pass both audio and video streams to the TV, it would insert delay in video due to processing, and insert a matching delay in the audio stream then pass the audio back up to the AVR via the ARC. This is possible but hardly optimal. Since audio delay is an inherent feature of the DSP pipelines in the AVR, it is essentially free. It would be a cost adder on the TV.
Edited by CaptainTiVO - 12/4/12 at 12:10pm
post #524 of 1346
Quote:
Originally Posted by cito83 View Post

I bought the LC-70LE600U from bestbuy on sale for 1800 bux. I have it so far for 3 days. It does not come with the adjusting options the 640u comes with. One thing i am disappointed in is the quality of the picture.
On Some blue rays the picture looks great as well in some HD programming. The motion blur /ghosting is what kills me but its so strange since it happens in specific movies. Iron man2 Looks awesome but inception not so great at all.

I bought a 60" 600U from Best Buy last weekend and had the same problem with motion blur. bright, high-contrast scenes looked fine, but darker images, especially in green areas turned into a smeary mess whenever anything moved. The source signal didn't matter either. I put in Brave on Blu-ray, and any scenes that featured panning shots across dark woods looked like someone spilled water all over a painting. If you remember what old laptop LCD screens from the 90's used to look like, the motion blur was about as bad as, if not worse, than that.

I did a test with pixperan on multiple displays just to confirm that what I was seeing was an issue with the sharp and not my eyes, and it basically confirmed what I saw from watching video. high contrast moving images on the sharp produced less blur than on my 60hz lcd monitor, but dark colors and low contrast gave off a ghostly color trail several inches long.

with all of the good reviews praising the picture quality of that tv, I think I must have gotten a lemon. I tried turning motion smoothing on, which helped marginally, but it was still close to un-watchable. I haven't gotten around to returning the sharp yet, but I've already replaced it with the vizio E601-A3 and I was relieved that the ghosting does not occur on that display.
post #525 of 1346
Hmmm Thanks for the information drpenguin57 yeah i am thinking of returning it and waiting till Jan for prices to drop.
post #526 of 1346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaid View Post

The Sharp does support auto lip synch; your receiver has to support it as well. With auto lip synch, the TV reports its video processing delay back to the receiver, and the receiver introduces a corresponding audio delay so the sound it plays matches the TV's display.
I have my blu-ray player connected to my Denon AVR-1913, and the Denon connected to the Sharp, all via HDMI, and I never see lip synch issues. The problem is that auto lip synch is an optional feature so not all receivers implement it. And it is not necessarily related to ARC; a receiver can implement ARC but not auto lip synch.
What exactly is the problem that you are trying to fix, anyway?

The problem is that the video is typically behind the audio. The Yamaha receiver that I linked to in this thread does have a lip sync option, but I'm not able to set it to auto. Actually, I wasn't even using the full capability of the ARC HDMI port for control via HDMI. I just realized that you have to enter the TV's "Aquos Link" setup to enable ARC, even if you don't have an Aquos Link specific device. ARC and HDMI control is now working, but the audio is still off by about 60 milliseconds. Maybe I'm just more sensative to the lack of sync that most folks.
post #527 of 1346
Yeah a lot of devices seem to have unclear settings for enabling ARC. I had to turn on Aquos Link on the TV and then turn on HDMI Control on the receiver before it would work here.

The thing about Auto Lip Sync is that it is based on the TV's calculation of its own lag. You might still need to introduce a fixed amount of delay (like the 60ms you mentioned) to get it to match the receiver exactly.
post #528 of 1346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaid View Post

Yeah a lot of devices seem to have unclear settings for enabling ARC. I had to turn on Aquos Link on the TV and then turn on HDMI Control on the receiver before it would work here.
The thing about Auto Lip Sync is that it is based on the TV's calculation of its own lag. You might still need to introduce a fixed amount of delay (like the 60ms you mentioned) to get it to match the receiver exactly.

Yes, I'll give that a shot over the coming weeks and see how it goes. I appreciate you tuning me in to the HDCP issue and I apologize for my resistance to that fact. Prior to entering this thread, I was not aware that the optical path was not HDCP complaint, nor was I aware that a "Presentation Device" could not, due to license, re-broadcast HCDP content.

- KN
post #529 of 1346
As I recall, the TV has a Music mode that turns off the screen but passes audio thru (probably for WiFi streaming music).
post #530 of 1346
After having this tv for almost 2 full weeks, I've finally come up with my final settings. I started off with SilverFox1's settings and have been making adjustments...first turning the color way down to help with the skin tones, but now I've up'd that slightly while also warming up the temp. The results, at least for my TV and for my liking, is perfect.

AV Mode: Standard

Backlight : +8
Brightness: -9
Contrast: +34
Color: -8
Tint: 0
Sharpness: +2

Color Temp: Middle
Motion Enhancement: OFF
Active Contrast: OFF
Film Mode: OFF
Digital Noise Reduction: Off
Monochrome: Off
OPC: On
Range of OPC: Max = +8, Min = 0
Gamma Adjustment = +2

I've been real happy with these settings for cable tv, Movies, DVD's and sports, and overall I'm very very happy with this TV. Hope everyone loves theirs as much!!
post #531 of 1346
Quote:
Originally Posted by drpenguin57 View Post

I bought a 60" 600U from Best Buy last weekend and had the same problem with motion blur. bright, high-contrast scenes looked fine, but darker images, especially in green areas turned into a smeary mess whenever anything moved. The source signal didn't matter either. I put in Brave on Blu-ray, and any scenes that featured panning shots across dark woods looked like someone spilled water all over a painting. If you remember what old laptop LCD screens from the 90's used to look like, the motion blur was about as bad as, if not worse, than that.
I did a test with pixperan on multiple displays just to confirm that what I was seeing was an issue with the sharp and not my eyes, and it basically confirmed what I saw from watching video. high contrast moving images on the sharp produced less blur than on my 60hz lcd monitor, but dark colors and low contrast gave off a ghostly color trail several inches long.
with all of the good reviews praising the picture quality of that tv, I think I must have gotten a lemon. I tried turning motion smoothing on, which helped marginally, but it was still close to un-watchable. I haven't gotten around to returning the sharp yet, but I've already replaced it with the vizio E601-A3 and I was relieved that the ghosting does not occur on that display.

600U series is very different from 640U in terms of picture quality, adjustments, and features. I bought similar value model 6300U last year and promptly returned it.
post #532 of 1346
Hey Guys,

How come whenever I download a movie that is high res like 720p and try to watch it via USB. It says the audio format is not supported?

Thanks
post #533 of 1346
Quote:
Originally Posted by vonxn View Post

Hey Guys,
How come whenever I download a movie that is high res like 720p and try to watch it via USB. It says the audio format is not supported?
Thanks

First of all, what is the filetype (extension)? What IS the audio format of the file? Depending on the filetype, you could download "MediaInfo" and check the file with it.
post #534 of 1346
they are .mkv files

sorry, whats media info?
post #535 of 1346
Quote:
Originally Posted by vonxn View Post

Hey Guys,
How come whenever I download a movie that is high res like 720p and try to watch it via USB. It says the audio format is not supported?
Thanks

Get a WD TV Live media player, plays everything you can throw in it.

http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.aspx?id=330
post #536 of 1346
I have owned this set a few days. Overall, a great picture with nice, velvety blacks but it does have a few issues which appear to be fairly common from what I have read.

First, the only way to get it to display motion correctly is to use Game mode, as has been discussed earlier in the thread. Every other mode creates weird motion effects (including SOE with film material) even when all film and motion options are turned off. The biggest issue with this is calibration as the Movie mode would be the preferable place to start.

Secondly, I have experienced audio sync issues with OTA HD occasionally. My setup is optical out into my receiver. Had the same issue with a Vizio E601-A3, which later failed completely. The third set I owned , a Panasonic, did not suffer any audio issues, nor did my previous Olevia.

Lastly, the built in WiFi receiver is extremely weak. I have never had a signal strength issue with any other device in this same location - including the previous recent WiFi enabled sets nor a Roku- yet I only get one bar with the built in Sharp WiFi. The result is that Viera apps such as Netflix are unusable as they constantly either drop in quality, stop or even crash the TV (the TV turned off completely).

Anyway, thus far, the actual picture quality from this Sharp is the best of the recent sets I have tried, it's just a shame these issues - particularly the motion problem - exists.
post #537 of 1346
No issues with TV WI FI for me. Actually I'm surprised how well it works considering distance from my router. There is a lot of variables in individual WI FI set up - router brand, signal strength, wireless protocol, and many more. As far as motion issue we've being going back and forth about it in this thread. I'd say if Game mode works for you then what's the problem? All you need to do is to get over factory preset naming "Game", calibrate it to your liking and use it. I'm happy with "Standard" mode, customized it just a bit and don't see any issues with motion blur and SOE. Actually SOE is the most misunderstood defect/feature of any modern high definition big screen digital TV. If your source is 1080p video shot on the digital camcorder it will look different from film camera material. Some people don't like the look of it and call it SOE but the key here is to understand how the source video was created.
post #538 of 1346
Quote:
Originally Posted by KryptoNyte View Post

First of all, what is the filetype (extension)? What IS the audio format of the file? Depending on the filetype, you could download "MediaInfo" and check the file with it.

I just bought a WD external HD :/
post #539 of 1346
Quote:
Originally Posted by gordon7 View Post

No issues with TV WI FI for me. Actually I'm surprised how well it works considering distance from my router. There is a lot of variables in individual WI FI set up - router brand, signal strength, wireless protocol, and many more. As far as motion issue we've being going back and forth about it in this thread. I'd say if Game mode works for you then what's the problem? All you need to do is to get over factory preset naming "Game", calibrate it to your liking and use it. I'm happy with "Standard" mode, customized it just a bit and don't see any issues with motion blur and SOE. Actually SOE is the most misunderstood defect/feature of any modern high definition big screen digital TV. If your source is 1080p video shot on the digital camcorder it will look different from film camera material. Some people don't like the look of it and call it SOE but the key here is to understand how the source video was created.

I'm still tweaking the calibration but the problem with Game mode thus far seems to be that there is no way to get it quite as accurate with regard to Gamma as the Movie mode. Using the WOW calibration disc, there is no way to get the Gamma just right. Probably something needs to be changed in the service menu.

I see the SOE effect in every mode except Game when watching originally filmed material (movies and older episodic TV). The cadence is all wrong and seems to go in and out of a SOE and what the proper cadence should be for a film source. Very annoying to me and outright unwatchable. Perhaps some folks are not as sensitive to it.

Regarding the poor WiFi reception, either the internal antenna was not plugged in during manufacture or it's simply not as good on 2.4Ghz as 5Ghz. I have a new, dual band N router coming just to test it but given my current, older G router is one room away - and I have never ever experienced an issue before - there is likely something wrong the built in wifi in my set.
post #540 of 1346
Just an update...hooked up the new dual band wireless router and saw a tiny improvement in signal strength. Actually, the 5G band was weaker than the 3G band (2 bars on 3G, 1 bar on 5G). This is still pathetic (my wireless router is only 20ft away!) and is bound to give issues so I have to assume there simply is a defect in my built in WiFi on this Sharp. I have read of other cases of weak WiFi with this particular model but then others as above say they have no issues. Perhaps Sharp either changed their WiFi hardware at some point (or the antenna is improperly connected in a few cases).
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