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Official Samsung UNxxES8000 Owner's Thread - Page 259

post #7741 of 16126
Some people attach pictures of their TVs to prove a point. I was starting to go through Garnoch's Idiot Guide and found some test patterns on YouTube to see how my TV stacks up. So far, I've been looking into clouding, flash lighting and banding. Turns out I had a camera on a tripod for another purpose and thought why not try some test pictures?. I also thought the best way to take these would be in total darkness. I have to focus the camera with a light on and then keep manual focus for the dark. The trouble is I don't know what shutter speed to use. What is an accurate representation of what the human eye sees on an LCD screen? When I have a black TV, looking for clouding, the picture shows nothing at 1/500 or even 1/6. However, when I try a shutter speed of 1 sec. it shows so much clouding that you would want to throw this TV in the garbage! However, the eye does not receive light at 1 sec. shutter speed which represents an accumulation of light (and clouding). I also see some wide banding at 1/60 using a green screen. At this stage, I am more concerned with what I see with my eyes and therefore clouding, flash lighting and banding do not seem to be issues for me. Is there an ideal shutter speed to use in the dark in order to simulate the real problems an LCD might pose, compared to the human eye? I don't want the LCD issues to be confused with issues inherent in capturing the image itself, in the dark. Thanks.
post #7742 of 16126
Thank you Garnoch for pointing me towards the link in your sig. I will definitely be reading up on it as I try to calibrate with the WOW disc that's on its way to me.
post #7743 of 16126
Quote:
Originally Posted by skibum5000 View Post

I'm thinking of perhaps trying another. It is a little weird that I can slide a patch of some colors from one part of the screen to another and have it go from a solid block of color to every other line striped a slightly different shade....
I could swear that some copies in local stores looked like that had none of it. I will go back and check again. Although I also want to see if I can do it an a way that insures I won't then get stuck with something with hideous clouding and flashlighting etc. (or even worse of this horiz striping issue). As large sets go this copy does reasonably well in those regards. You have to have super luck to have all of that (clouding, backlight bleed, uniformity) to perfection on larger screens, not realistic to think otherwise (although my 52A750 actually was 100% free of all clouds and backlight and uniformity issues, but that is a very rare thing once screens start getting over 36-40" or so and it had severe flickering and flashing, motion would sometimes trigger some many pixels to rapidly flicker on and off, awful, and other stuff, so it was the worst set in practice and had to get replaced under warranty [total nightmare]), so from a realistic stand point, it really does a pretty solid job regarding all those other potential issues, hardly perfect, but well within reason for what to expect from a mass produced consumer HDTV larger sized set, they'd probably have to cost 3x as much otherwise.
On my C650 it was ("was" because my C650 is out of commission and in the trash. My fault though entirely, I accidentally cracked it. Something flew out of my hands and smashed into it (that is a lesson to never carry anything tricky to carry while walking past a set!).) definitely noticeable from normal distances on quite a few different shades/colors and it had always bugged me a bit (although I'm sure some would have not noticed, heck I know people who still insist that blu-ray looks exactly the same as DVD). On my 7100 for many shades on which it occurs is not really visible from typical viewing distances although for the few shades that it does it worst on, it is still just a bit noticeable, it doesn't jump out at you or anything but if you know what to look for you can see it a bit, especially on slide shows or more CGI-type movies. It doesn't really show at all on the bottom half of the screen from normal distance for any colors and the bottom left corner it doesn't show from any distance, even right up on the screen it looks normal and smooth, odd and even 'scanlines' both showing the same exact shade. Definitely less noticeable than on my C650 though. I'm a touch worried in that the vertical LCD projector striping was said to grow worse over time and I thought that it showed less the first couple days than now on my 7100. I got it from a very flexible store, still lots of time left.
I've never seen any computer monitor with this issue ever. And never saw any HDTV of any type ever have it until the arrival of the C series and the new panel type from Samsung. It seemed to peak in prevalence with the D series. It seems to occur less often with the ES than with the D series and less severely, for the most part, when it does occur than with the C or D series. And it not just a Samsung set thing either since once Sony/etc. started getting the newer type panels from Samsung their sets started showing it too now. I've seen way to few samples to really say but it seems like it might be more common on the current Sony line than the current Samsung ES line with the Sony 850 and such seeming more like the D Samsungs perhaps. But it's hard to base things off of sample sizes less than a handful.

Very very odd. Thanks for all the info, it's great to have.
post #7744 of 16126
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

Thank you Garnoch for pointing me towards the link in your sig. I will definitely be reading up on it as I try to calibrate with the WOW disc that's on its way to me.
You're welcome. Great disc. There are several types of discs out there but I heard so many good things about the WOW disc and I'm glad I have it.
post #7745 of 16126
Quote:
Originally Posted by canadian55 View Post

Some people attach pictures of their TVs to prove a point. I was starting to go through Garnoch's Idiot Guide and found some test patterns on YouTube to see how my TV stacks up. So far, I've been looking into clouding, flash lighting and banding. Turns out I had a camera on a tripod for another purpose and thought why not try some test pictures?. I also thought the best way to take these would be in total darkness. I have to focus the camera with a light on and then keep manual focus for the dark. The trouble is I don't know what shutter speed to use. What is an accurate representation of what the human eye sees on an LCD screen? When I have a black TV, looking for clouding, the picture shows nothing at 1/500 or even 1/6. However, when I try a shutter speed of 1 sec. it shows so much clouding that you would want to throw this TV in the garbage! However, the eye does not receive light at 1 sec. shutter speed which represents an accumulation of light (and clouding). I also see some wide banding at 1/60 using a green screen. At this stage, I am more concerned with what I see with my eyes and therefore clouding, flash lighting and banding do not seem to be issues for me. Is there an ideal shutter speed to use in the dark in order to simulate the real problems an LCD might pose, compared to the human eye? I don't want the LCD issues to be confused with issues inherent in capturing the image itself, in the dark. Thanks.

Don't drive yourself too nuts looking for things, just a tip haha. Also, if you check out the calibration section of my write up, you'll see a link to all the great AVS files you can download along with instructions. You won't need all those files but a few will come in very handy if your up to it.

As for you camera setting, I'm not sure. Some people were adjusting them in the computer to accurately show what their eye was seeing.
post #7746 of 16126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garnoch View Post

Ah, grainy was the key word. I thought mine was broken when I got it because the default settings suck, mainly for one reason.... Sharpness is way to high. Tell him to start by turning it down to between 0 and 20.

Ah, I wonder if like you said it could be the sharpness up so high that he is referring to as "grain". I was thinking he was referring to the actual grain on blu-rays - lots of people who aren't familiar with how grainy some discs can look are surprised when they first start experiencing blu-rays. But it could definitely be the sharpness turned up too high causing that "grainy" look as you suggested.
post #7747 of 16126
That's true. film grain can be more easily seen on a nice HD panel. Even films shot digitally, film grain is added in post.
post #7748 of 16126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garnoch View Post

Thanks for sharing, man! These wouldn't work for me because the Standard Color Tone straying too far from 6500k for me, but some may enjoy it, so thanks again. How is it over the pond this fine day?

I've been using standard color tone for a few weeks, but the other night I witched over to warm1 because though skin tones seemed to look good in some programmming, overall things just didn't look "right". 5 minutes after switching to warm1 I decided things look more natural. I haven't done too much viewing yet since I switched over, but I think I might settle on warm1 as the best setting for me.
post #7749 of 16126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garnoch View Post

Very very odd. Thanks for all the info, it's great to have.

What happens if you bring up the test pattern in your ES8000. If it has an orange soccer ball near the bottom right and a blue pale a bit up and to the left do they have any obvious horizontal lines going straight across them if you look up close?
post #7750 of 16126
Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

I've been using standard color tone for a few weeks, but the other night I witched over to warm1 because though skin tones seemed to look good in some programmming, overall things just didn't look "right". 5 minutes after switching to warm1 I decided things look more natural. I haven't done too much viewing yet since I switched over, but I think I might settle on warm1 as the best setting for me.

On almost all Samsungs, Warm 2 is actually the closest starting point to the D65 standard that TV shows and movies adhere to (on some it is still not even warm enough, on others it slightly over does the warmth but is almost always still at least a touch closer than Warm 1, at least on their HDTV on a few of their monitors Warm 2 went overboard enough that you might argue that Warm 1 is a better compromise) and it should make it look more like the real world or what you see in a movie theater.
It may look a little off at first if your eyes are used to Standard, which runs very cool.
Edited by skibum5000 - 12/10/12 at 4:35pm
post #7751 of 16126
Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

I've been using standard color tone for a few weeks, but the other night I witched over to warm1 because though skin tones seemed to look good in some programmming, overall things just didn't look "right". 5 minutes after switching to warm1 I decided things look more natural. I haven't done too much viewing yet since I switched over, but I think I might settle on warm1 as the best setting for me.

That's great, man. If it works for your eyes, go for it. Don't concern yourself with the fact that on some programs things look right and some don't. Director's make all their stuff look different for a style they're going for. The key is they all have the same starting point and if you're TV is set up close to that "starting point", you'll see what they want you to see. I know you know this already, but just figured I'd say it. And who knows, with your settings, Warm 1 may be the closest to 6500k anyway.
post #7752 of 16126
Quote:
Originally Posted by skibum5000 View Post

On almost all Samsungs, Warm 2 is actually the closest starting point to the D65 standard that TV shows and movies adhere to (on some it is still not even warm enough, on others it slightly over does the warmth but is almost always still at least a touch closer than Warm 1, at least on their HDTV on a few of their monitors Warm 2 went overboard enough that you might argue that Warm 1 is a better compromise) and it should make it look more like the real world or what you see in a movie theater.
It may look a little off at first if your eyes are used to Standard, which runs very cool.
Exactly!
post #7753 of 16126
Quote:
Originally Posted by skibum5000 View Post

What happens if you bring up the test pattern in your ES8000. If it has an orange soccer ball near the bottom right and a blue pale a bit up and to the left do they have any obvious horizontal lines going straight across them if you look up close?

Ha, I almost didn't want to do this test, afraid of what I may find. But no, I have no lines on mine at all.
post #7754 of 16126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garnoch View Post

Ha, I almost didn't want to do this test, afraid of what I may find. But no, I have no lines on mine at all.

Hah.

Wow, see even up close the orange soccer ball and blue bucket have no signs at all of any sort of horizontal lines going across them?
I see very noticeable single pixel high lines going across both every other scanline. on the soccer ball, every other scanline across it is a somewhat brighter shade of orange. And the bucket looks like it was all sloppily dithered or something, instead of smooth like every other scanline across it looks a little darker. Looking close it is really easy to see in both cases.

OK, then what about this test biggrin.gif:D:D :
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1172272

Look at the nice sunset photo, turn your browser into a small window and center the photo so you can move the sunset sky part around the screen. Looking up close, torture test why not 2'-'3 away just ot be sure you are not missing what I am talking about, does the sky ever get super-fine single pixel high stripes of slightly different shades or pinks/oranges going across it? Does it have a totally smooth feeling or sort of a gritty look?

On my ES7100 if I move that to the bottom left quadrant the sky looks smooth as sky, if I move it to upper right quadrant I see fine horizontal lines running across the sky, every other scanline shows a slightly brighter shade of the scanline above or below it. mad.gif Upper left and lower right quadrants on the display it's intermediate, definitely there but fainter. On my PC monitor it looks smooth anywhere on screen.

Make sure sharpness is at 0 and all the DNR stuff is OFF just to eliminate any artifacts.
post #7755 of 16126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garnoch View Post

That's great, man. If it works for your eyes, go for it. Don't concern yourself with the fact that on some programs things look right and some don't. Director's make all their stuff look different for a style they're going for. The key is they all have the same starting point and if you're TV is set up close to that "starting point", you'll see what they want you to see. I know you know this already, but just figured I'd say it. And who knows, with your settings, Warm 1 may be the closest to 6500k anyway.

Yeah after watching some stuff on warm1 it's obvious that standard just runs too cool. But to my eyes warm 2 just seems a bit "too warm" for my tastes. I realize it's suppose d to be the closest to the 6500k standard, but too often to me anyways faces look just too yellowish or red. I like faces to look very natural looking, as in real life. I know sometimes filmmakers purposely film overly warm and that's fine but for everyday viewing, if everyone's faces look on the yellowish/red side to me then it just distracts me too much.
post #7756 of 16126
Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

Yeah after watching some stuff on warm1 it's obvious that standard just runs too cool. But to my eyes warm 2 just seems a bit "too warm" for my tastes. I realize it's suppose d to be the closest to the 6500k standard, but too often to me anyways faces look just too yellowish or red. I like faces to look very natural looking, as in real life. I know sometimes filmmakers purposely film overly warm and that's fine but for everyday viewing, if everyone's faces look on the yellowish/red side to me then it just distracts me too much.

Yeah with your panel and/or settings, Warm 1 may be best for you so that's great news.
post #7757 of 16126
Quote:
Originally Posted by skibum5000 View Post

Hah.
Wow, see even up close the orange soccer ball and blue bucket have no signs at all of any sort of horizontal lines going across them?
I see very noticeable single pixel high lines going across both every other scanline. on the soccer ball, every other scanline across it is a somewhat brighter shade of orange. And the bucket looks like it was all sloppily dithered or something, instead of smooth like every other scanline across it looks a little darker. Looking close it is really easy to see in both cases.
OK, then what about this test biggrin.gif:D:D :
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1172272
Look at the nice sunset photo, turn your browser into a small window and center the photo so you can move the sunset sky part around the screen. Looking up close, torture test why not 2'-'3 away just ot be sure you are not missing what I am talking about, does the sky ever get super-fine single pixel high stripes of slightly different shades or pinks/oranges going across it? Does it have a totally smooth feeling or sort of a gritty look?
On my ES7100 if I move that to the bottom left quadrant the sky looks smooth as sky, if I move it to upper right quadrant I see fine horizontal lines running across the sky, every other scanline shows a slightly brighter shade of the scanline above or below it. mad.gif Upper left and lower right quadrants on the display it's intermediate, definitely there but fainter. On my PC monitor it looks smooth anywhere on screen.
Make sure sharpness is at 0 and all the DNR stuff is OFF just to eliminate any artifacts.

New test complete. I'm definitely getting close enough to see individual pixels and everything looks smooth. If it helps at all, my panel is HS01 and was made in Mexico.
post #7758 of 16126
Garnoch - there was one other thing that's been bugging me after scanning the thread. The HDMI port 1 being used for something other than a PC issue. Has it ever been figured out whether hooking up your bluray/AVR to HDMI 1 results in you losing any special 'processing'? I know ARC is HDMI 2, but is irrelevant to my setup anyway.
post #7759 of 16126
HDMI 1 is fine for anything but if you want to hook up DVI, you need to use that input because it links to the separate audio in.
post #7760 of 16126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garnoch View Post

New test complete. I'm definitely getting close enough to see individual pixels and everything looks smooth. If it helps at all, my panel is HS01 and was made in Mexico.

Thanks.

HS01 hmmmm. What size screen? Is that one of those 60" Sharp panels perhaps? AFAIK all the 60" Samsungs use a radically different type of panel technology than 46" and 55" sets, for all intents and purposes other than the fact they have the same user controls and options the 60" ones are totally different sets.

Hmmm mine is actually a US02. Not an SQ. It seemed like the SQ were most prone to really bad levels of it (although also the deepest blacks, at least in C-series era) but obviously US02 can have it too, if not quite as badly (I did seem some perfect SQ01 on C8000s though, super deep SQ01 blacks and yet zero striping either).
The US02 sub-pixel structure looks somewhat like SQ01 sub-pixel structure.

One weird thing I recall was the my local PC Richards demo wall models of C series were all free of striping but the local Best Buy wall demos showed plenty of copies that had it, especially one store.
post #7761 of 16126
Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

Yeah after watching some stuff on warm1 it's obvious that standard just runs too cool. But to my eyes warm 2 just seems a bit "too warm" for my tastes. I realize it's suppose d to be the closest to the 6500k standard, but too often to me anyways faces look just too yellowish or red. I like faces to look very natural looking, as in real life. I know sometimes filmmakers purposely film overly warm and that's fine but for everyday viewing, if everyone's faces look on the yellowish/red side to me then it just distracts me too much.

Yeah you need to adjust WB a bit after setting Warm2 to remove some red. On my set Warm2 did overdo it a bit on the mid and upper tones so:
WB:
Offsets R,G,B: 26,25,24
Gains: 20,25,28

you can see I took a bit of red out and added a touch of blue to the gains. But Warm2 meant having to do less radical adjustments to the WB controls than Warm1 on my set (and most, if not all, Samsung sets). But WB left untouched yeah I guess Warm 2 could get a bit red in the face on most sets.

The CMS and Color setting might also affect face tones too.
post #7762 of 16126
Anyone with a Xbox 360 know which setting is best for our TVs. REFERENCE LEVELS ( Standard, Inermediate, Expanded ) what's it mean ??
post #7763 of 16126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garnoch View Post

Yeah this has been talked about a few times but no need to apologize, things get lost quickly. It is normal for the 65". Those pictures were supposedly models other than the 65", regardless of if you thought it was the 65". Congrats and good luck. How's it look?
thanks for the response. To be honest my initial thoughts have not been all that favorable. I have noticed when watching a soccer game, and I watch a lot of soccer, there is an issue. When the camera pans quickly down field I notice darker vertical areas on the screen. Most noticeable is a 4 inch (approx) area just to the left of the middle of the screen and a 2 inch area on the right side of the screen. It is like inconsistency in the back lighting of the panel. I haven't noticed it as much on other sports as the camera doesn't pan back and forth as much, I need to check out tennis I guess. It isn't really noticeable on normal TV viewing and movies. I find myself looking for it now. I checked out my 60" 2011 model and it doesn't happen on that one. I am not sure if it will work itself out or if there are settings to minimize it. I need to read more of this thread. If I have a solid color like white on screen I see them very faintly, as I say - it is mostly noticeable with soccer when there is quick panning across the green of the pitch.

I don't want to take it back, but I expected better from a $3,500 tv. Most of the time the picture is pretty damn awesome.
post #7764 of 16126
Quote:
Originally Posted by crabtrp View Post

thanks for the response. To be honest my initial thoughts have not been all that favorable. I have noticed when watching a soccer game, and I watch a lot of soccer, there is an issue. When the camera pans quickly down field I notice darker vertical areas on the screen. Most noticeable is a 4 inch (approx) area just to the left of the middle of the screen and a 2 inch area on the right side of the screen. It is like inconsistency in the back lighting of the panel. I haven't noticed it as much on other sports as the camera doesn't pan back and forth as much, I need to check out tennis I guess. It isn't really noticeable on normal TV viewing and movies. I find myself looking for it now. I checked out my 60" 2011 model and it doesn't happen on that one. I am not sure if it will work itself out or if there are settings to minimize it. I need to read more of this thread. If I have a solid color like white on screen I see them very faintly, as I say - it is mostly noticeable with soccer when there is quick panning across the green of the pitch.
I don't want to take it back, but I expected better from a $3,500 tv. Most of the time the picture is pretty damn awesome.

What your'e describing is called banding, and it is a fairly common panel flaw on these LCD sets, not just on Samsung, but on other brands as well. How likely it is that any one brand has more than another brand, I can't say. A lot of people have had issues with these Samsungs and banding. I have it but fortunately it's mild for me - I have a more noticeable banding issue in 3D though. It's doesn't improve over time, it is what it is, and there's really not too much you can do about it. It's mostly noticeable during pans like you have noticed. It's easy to see on certain sports like golf or soccer, anything with green grass and lots of pans really show it off. If you're not happy with it and think it will bother you regularly, take it back and exchange it for another one while you can. Maybe if enough of these sets get returned, and the manufacturers see "banding" as the reason, just maybe eventually they will improve the manufacturing quality of these panels so banding is less likely to occur.
post #7765 of 16126
Hi all, I'm a noob poster, but a longtime lurker! I've had my 46in set for a couple of months now, and in general, I'm really happy with the performance! However, there's one thing that's really bugging me - the 3d. When I first got the set, I used the "Auto" setting both for 3d movies and gaming. I never really noticed any issues with crosstalk whatsoever. However, after the 1041 firmware update, I feel as though the settings have completely freaked out. Now, when I try to play (for example) Crysis 2 on the 360, the convergence seems completely off when set to Auto. The only way I can get a semi-decent image is to change to manual settings and push the setting to +5, and while this largely works for gameplay (it reduces the double image substantially), it's problematic to have to adjust this setting from game to game.

I'd also be interested to know if anybody else is having strange issues like this (I'm also getting the smarthub flashing bug) after firmware updates?! I also have a vague recollection of many, MANY, pages back reading a post from a European owner who mentioned thery were ahead of the US in fw updates, and their most recent update improved 3d quality...Once again, many thanks for the input!
post #7766 of 16126
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDenham View Post

Anyone with a Xbox 360 know which setting is best for our TVs. REFERENCE LEVELS ( Standard, Inermediate, Expanded ) what's it mean ??

I'm sure any one of the peeps on this thread could give you a far better (and technical response) to your question, but if you're just wondering what's best to set it to, your 360/tv should either be set to Standard/HDMI Black Level: Low, or Expanded/HDMI Black Level: Normal. Either of these combinations should "look" correct, but if you set it (for instance) to Expanded and HDMI Low, the colors should look washed out, and almost too grey. So if you have your settings matched, you shouldn't have any big issues with colors seeming appropriate...
post #7767 of 16126
Quote:
Originally Posted by dizcoduck View Post

Hi all I've dived into this thread, skimmed, and read as much as possible over the last week and am now looking for some help/suggestions. I purchased an LG LM8600 over the summer and love it. The picture WOWed me out of the box. Last week my dad purchased an 60 ES8000 for the living room and we have been watching it for a week and nothing has really WOWed me about it. I personally think the picture is terrible on this Samsung. I used the same Disney WOW disc to try and calibrate it to our liking but I seem to get no where with it. Watching HD on Dish Network has a fairly good picture, but when we put in blu-rays the picture is just terrible. I've checked the blu-ray and the cables to make sure they are not the issue. When I say the picture is terrible I mean that it is grainy all the time throughout the entire movie. We've been playing with the settings and I can't get rid of the grainyness. I would think that the Samsung would have just as good if not an even better picture than the LG. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.


turn the sharpness between 0-15, i had the same issue (thought tv was defective out of the box)
Edited by rckrz6 - 12/11/12 at 12:06am
post #7768 of 16126
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDenham View Post

Anyone with a Xbox 360 know which setting is best for our TVs. REFERENCE LEVELS ( Standard, Inermediate, Expanded ) what's it mean ??


TV: Hdmi low (default)
xbox: standard (default)


tv:hdmi normal
xbox:expanded


tv:hdmi low (default)
ps3: limited (default)


tv hdmi: normal
ps3: full

For PC label the input "PC"
Edited by rckrz6 - 12/11/12 at 12:32am
post #7769 of 16126
Quote:
Originally Posted by skibum5000 View Post

Yeah you need to adjust WB a bit after setting Warm2 to remove some red. On my set Warm2 did overdo it a bit on the mid and upper tones so:
WB:
Offsets R,G,B: 26,25,24
Gains: 20,25,28
you can see I took a bit of red out and added a touch of blue to the gains. But Warm2 meant having to do less radical adjustments to the WB controls than Warm1 on my set (and most, if not all, Samsung sets). But WB left untouched yeah I guess Warm 2 could get a bit red in the face on most sets.
The CMS and Color setting might also affect face tones too.

I have calibrated my set (not es8000, but es6710) and best starting point is Warm2. Even with Warm1, blue luminance is too off from proper luminance graph (using HCFR + xrite). Best start point for gamma is 0. I have fully calibrated set using 10pt balance and so. Now I can see how far are my new settings from factory settings and what is most important, how nice picture I have. Skin tone is just fabulous.
post #7770 of 16126
Anyone having issues with tv volume levels?? some input sources i literly have to turn the volume all the way up for it to be loud (75+), while other sources "25" is pretty loud. I was using a sound bar before, but now im back to normal tv speakers


edit**** auto volume seems to help a bit
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