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Official Samsung UNxxES8000 Owner's Thread - Page 322

post #9631 of 16127
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

^Perhaps you've mis/overstated?
I'd say that the kind of content likely to produce visible banding has been well documented on this thread-and what I've read is consistent with what I see on mine. AFAIK blue or green color, as in blue sky or soccer field, will tend to bring it out. Combine that with a panning shot and/or motion in some of the content and it is more likely to be evident. (Let's refer to that for the moment as "banding-prone content")
AFAIK the extent of banding appears to vary considerably panel-to-panel. On the best 65" panels, it is barely noticable/minimal even with "banding-prone content". With the worst panels, it is very distracting with "banding-prone content" and may well be evident on other content.

Are all panels like that? If I return my TV (as I am still within the 30 days with Best Buy), will I still have the same problem with a new unit?
post #9632 of 16127
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

^Perhaps you've mis/overstated?
I'd say that the kind of content likely to produce visible banding has been well documented on this thread-and what I've read is consistent with what I see on mine. AFAIK blue or green color, as in blue sky or soccer field, will tend to bring it out. Combine that with a panning shot and/or motion in some of the content and it is more likely to be evident. (Let's refer to that for the moment as "banding-prone content")
AFAIK the extent of banding appears to vary considerably panel-to-panel. On the best 65" panels, it is barely noticable/minimal even with "banding-prone content". With the worst panels, it is very distracting with "banding-prone content" and may well be evident on other content.

Yes, well aware of all of the above, should have clarified better and describe as you did..... if you have seen my previous posts, we've gone over extent of banding from panel to panel and build dates for the recent Oct, Nov and Dec builds, etc...., which is why I posted pics from a Dec. 2012 MH02 which is the latest build in case others were considering exchanging for a more recent build in hopes of having less severe banding.... basically banding is less, but still there nonetheless.
post #9633 of 16127
Quote:
Originally Posted by matnick2127 View Post

Are all panels like that? If I return my TV (as I am still within the 30 days with Best Buy), will I still have the same problem with a new unit?

Just 65s. Well documented in this thread so you can go back and read and make a decision.
post #9634 of 16127
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmay91472 View Post

Just 65s. Well documented in this thread so you can go back and read and make a decision.

Thanks but what do you think?
post #9635 of 16127
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmay91472 View Post

Yes, well aware of all of the above, should have clarified better and describe as you did..... if you have seen my previous posts, we've gone over extent of banding from panel to panel and build dates for the recent Oct, Nov and Dec builds, etc...., which is why I posted pics from a Dec. 2012 MH02 which is the latest build in case others were considering exchanging for a more recent build in hopes of having less severe banding.... basically banding is less, but still there nonetheless.

Thanks for clarifying. Your pics and your posting your experience is much appreciated.

Personally I don't think we have enough data to support the conclusion that they've addressed the QC issues and that the newer build dates are improved irt panel quality, but it would be nice if that turned out to be the case.
post #9636 of 16127
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Thanks for clarifying. Your pics and your posting your experience is much appreciated.
Personally I don't think we have enough data to support the conclusion that they've addressed the QC issues and that the newer build dates are improved irt panel quality, but it would be nice if that turned out to be the case.

I do think flashlighting and clouding have been improved with the latest builds as I don't see as many complaints from newer owners compared to earlier owners. Just disappointing that banding is still present albeit minimal.
post #9637 of 16127
Quote:
Originally Posted by matnick2127 View Post

Are all panels like that? If I return my TV (as I am still within the 30 days with Best Buy), will I still have the same problem with a new unit?
It has been referred to here as "the panel lottery." If we're just talking about banding, and your panel looks as good as cmay91472's pics, you could get a better, or worse, panel after a replacement switch. His, as with mine, appears to be at the better end of the quality curve.

AS to advice on yours, IMO it basically comes down to this:
if you can't stand the one you have you should definately switch it out- and keep switching till you're happy, or give up and get a refund/credit towards a different model.

Absolutely act within your 30 d by contacting your BB store manager about your concerns and asking for a replacement! Outside that 30 d it will very likely make the whole process far more difficult as you'll be dealing with Samsung.
post #9638 of 16127
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmay91472 View Post

I do think flashlighting and clouding have been improved with the latest builds as I don't see as many complaints from newer owners compared to earlier owners. Just disappointing that banding is still present albeit minimal.

Coming from a Plasma, your going to notice banding on a Edge lit LED. Some people don't even realize there is any banding there. sometimes I have to point out banding to some, and they say, oh I thought that was the content doing that. If your spoiled with Plasma Uniformity, then move to a edge lit LED, Banding will stick out like a sore thumb on certain content. I like to tell people when making a buying decision to go into it knowing the advantages and disadvantages to each tech. Go into a LED knowing there is going to be some banding and you will be ok. Go into Plasma knowing you will get temporary IR, and you will be fine. Why I tell people no TV technology is perfect and if you go into it knowing what to expect, your all good.

There is no 100% perfect uniform edge lit LED. There is no Plasma that is 100% prone to IR. I think some people just have unrealistic expectations.

I'm happy with my 65" ES8000 with light banding. Its what I expect from a Edge lit LED.

Edit - For those blaming Samsung for banding and their lack of Quality control, every manufacture's edge lite LED's have banding, its not just Samsung. Its inherent to the technology, not the manufacture.
Edited by Bolt989 - 1/7/13 at 10:55am
post #9639 of 16127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolt989 View Post

Coming from a Plasma, your going to notice banding on a Edge lit LED. Some people don't even realize there is any banding there. sometimes I have to point out banding to some, and they say, oh I thought that was the content doing that. If your spoiled with Plasma Uniformity, then move to a edge lit LED, Banding will stick out like a sore thumb on certain content. I like to tell people when making a buying decision to go into it knowing the advantages and disadvantages to each tech. Go into a LED knowing there is going to be some banding and you will be ok. Go into Plasma knowing you will get temporary IR, and you will be fine. Why I tell people no TV technology is perfect and if you go into it knowing what to expect, your all good.
There is no 100% perfect uniform edge lit LED. There is no Plasma that is 100% prone to IR. I think some people just have unrealistic expectations.
I'm happy with my 65" ES8000 with light banding. Its what I expect from a Edge lit LED.

+1
post #9640 of 16127
Quote:
Originally Posted by matnick2127 View Post

Thanks but what do you think?

As someone who went from Panasonic GT50 (space heater), to a too small (overpriced) Sony 55HX950, to a UN65ES8000 (total banding beast), before finally exchanging it for a UN60ES8000, I have to say the 60" is, in a word, perfect. No clouding. No flash lighting. No banding. Excellent off-axis viewing. Deep, deep blacks. Eye-popping, crystal clear 3D. The 60" version of the ES8000 is the real deal! As far as I know, the 60" version is the only one that uses a Sharp (Japanese) panel, compared to the Chinese and Korean panels used in the other sized ES8000 models. I'm not saying that's what makes the difference, but I am saying that IMO, there is a HUGE difference between the 60 and 65" models I had in my home.

It took me a while (plus multiple TVs) to get there, but thanks to Best Buy and their excellent return policy, I am one hundred and ten percent happy with my UN60ES8000 purchase. This model seems to be the one that hits the (size & performance) sweet spot in the ES8000 line.

As always, YMMV, but I think you'll be hard-pressed to find a better overall performing LED of this size at this price-point.
post #9641 of 16127
Quote:
Originally Posted by pitchman View Post

As someone who went from Panasonic GT50 (space heater), to a too small (overpriced) Sony 55HX950, to a UN65ES8000 (total banding beast), before finally exchanging it for a UN60ES8000, I have to say the 60" is, in a word, perfect. No clouding. No flash lighting. No banding. Excellent off-axis viewing. Deep, deep blacks. Eye-popping, crystal clear 3D. The 60" version of the ES8000 is the real deal! As far as I know, the 60" version is the only one that uses a Sharp (Japanese) panel, compared to the Chinese and Korean panels used in the other sized ES8000 models. I'm not saying that's what makes the difference, but I am saying that IMO, there is a HUGE difference between the 60 and 65" models I had in my home.
It took me a while (plus multiple TVs) to get there, but thanks to Best Buy and their excellent return policy, I am one hundred and ten percent happy with my UN60ES8000 purchase. This model seems to be the one that hits the (size & performance) sweet spot in the ES8000 line.
As always, YMMV, but I think you'll be hard-pressed to find a better overall performing LED of this size at this price-point.

Nice post, man. I didn't realize you had gone through the Panasonic and Sony first.
post #9642 of 16127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garnoch View Post

Nice post, man. I didn't realize you had gone through the Panasonic and Sony first.

Ha ha! Yeah, I started out with the Panny plasma and pretty much hated everything about it except for the screen size. Dull, drab, lifeless picture (except for Blu-ray playback in a completely dark room). Even the highly-touted THX settings only looked decent with Blu-ray. Direct TV looked awful all of the time. Forget about 3D altogether! The Sony was okay, but $3,500 for a (too small for me) 55" TV with buggy 3D, no CMS and poor off-axis viewing didn't cut it, either. If the Sony cost $800 less, I might have kept it and called it a day. In the end, I'm really glad I persevered with the ES8000, especially after getting a disappointing 65" version.
post #9643 of 16127
Quote:
Originally Posted by pitchman View Post

UN60ES8000, I have to say the 60" is, in a word, perfect. No clouding. No flash lighting. No banding. Excellent off-axis viewing. Deep, deep blacks. Eye-popping, crystal clear 3D. The 60" version of the ES8000 is the real deal!
Agreed. I see no anomalies on my 60".
post #9644 of 16127
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmay91472 View Post

If you have a 65, banding is noticeable on any content, not just slides. It's a limitation of the design. If you don't see it, you are fortunate but it is still there. You just may not be as sensitive to it in the same way others aren't bothered or don't notice buzzing on plasma or dead pixels, etc.
If a tree falls and noone hears it, did it make a sound? If I run a stopsign and no cops see me, did I break the law?
post #9645 of 16127
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebignewt View Post

If a tree falls and noone hears it, did it make a sound? If I run a stopsign and no cops see me, did I break the law?

Not quite sure what you are trying to say here or if you are just trying to be argumentative. All I am saying is all LED edge lit over 65 will have banding due to limitations of the tech. Bravo to you for not noticing or being sensitive to it. That's a good thing, but other people in here have questions about it and its only fair to explain the pros and cons for them to make their own decision. Yours is probably like mine and sound of mind, on the better end of the spectrum, but I'm willing to bet if you post some pics in here, garnosh, rico, sound of mind, needis, turbo and others who are familiar with vertical banding on LED technology will be able to point it out. I don't advise it since if you don't see it, you shouldn't go looking for it, but it doesn't change the fact that the 65 is not the 60 and to some degree it has banding which is the basic question many new or prospective owners are asking about and we are answering.
post #9646 of 16127
I won't speak for Newt, but I actually half laughed when I read what he wrote because I almost wrote the exact same thing about the tree in the woods a half hour before he did. I'm not sure about him but I was going to write that in the sense that if you don't go looking for it, and don't see it with your own eyes, then you can convince yourself it doesn't happen with your panel and all is fine and dandy, - Ignorance is bliss smile.gif
post #9647 of 16127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garnoch View Post

I won't speak for Newt, but I actually half laughed when I read what he wrote because I almost wrote the exact same thing about the tree in the woods a half hour before he did. I'm not sure about him but I was going to write that in the sense that if you don't go looking for it, and don't see it with your own eyes, then you can convince yourself it doesn't happen with your panel and all is fine and dandy, - Ignorance is bliss smile.gif

So true. tongue.gif I wish I had the ability to be like that. Would have saved me a lot of time and grief and would not have exchanged so many times for the various issues we've discussed in the past.
post #9648 of 16127
Ha, very very true. Some of us can't help being OCD about certain things though.
post #9649 of 16127
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmay91472 View Post

If you have a 65, banding is noticeable on any content, not just slides. It's a limitation of the design. If you don't see it, you are fortunate but it is still there. You just may not be as sensitive to it in the same way others aren't bothered or don't notice buzzing on plasma or dead pixels, etc.

That's not true.
post #9650 of 16127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jestered View Post

That's not true.

See sound of minds post, he explains it better... But yes, banding is not limited to viewing slides but can be seen while viewing a bluray, cable, etc if the right combo if light/dark, panning etc. Not sure what you are talking about especially since you seem so knowledgeable from previous posts.
post #9651 of 16127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garnoch View Post

I won't speak for Newt, but I actually half laughed when I read what he wrote because I almost wrote the exact same thing about the tree in the woods a half hour before he did. I'm not sure about him but I was going to write that in the sense that if you don't go looking for it, and don't see it with your own eyes, then you can convince yourself it doesn't happen with your panel and all is fine and dandy, - Ignorance is bliss smile.gif

Yep, I'll never forget the time I read about "rainbow effect" regarding DLP. 3 months after I brought home my old Samsung DLP, I thought it had a great picture and had no idea what this "rainbow effect" was all about....until I read someones description on here....then that is ALL I saw. mad.gif
post #9652 of 16127
got my 65es8000 today hadn't time to install it tough. im installing it tomorrow :P

found one more review and settings page http://www.digitaltrends.com/tv-reviews/samsung-un65es8000-review/

also samsung press conference is about to begin... 35min? http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/01/ces-2013-liveblog-samsung-press-conference-monday-200-p-m-pst/

just hope the evolution kit is going to be AWESOME and cheap xD
post #9653 of 16127
Quote:
Originally Posted by EAnglum View Post

Yep, I'll never forget the time I read about "rainbow effect" regarding DLP. 3 months after I brought home my old Samsung DLP, I thought it had a great picture and had no idea what this "rainbow effect" was all about....until I read someones description on here....then that is ALL I saw. mad.gif

That happened to me when the first rear projection HDTVs hit the market and I started reading about convergence points, etc,... Couldn't stop myself from going into the service menu and calling up the convergence grid on a regular basis to check and align the CRT guns.
post #9654 of 16127
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmay91472 View Post

See sound of minds post, he explains it better... But yes, banding is not limited to viewing slides but can be seen while viewing a bluray, cable, etc if the right combo if light/dark, panning etc. Not sure what you are talking about especially since you seem so knowledgeable from previous posts.

I was just about to head to a meeting, so I wasn't able to be more detailed. I was referring to this:


"...banding is noticeable on any content, not just slides."


At least in my case, with my TV, that's not true. Unfortunately, it seems like I'm the exception and not the rule, but...
post #9655 of 16127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snake Pliskin View Post

That is really interesting info thank you but ....
That does not explain why we see 5 or 6 lines of vertical banding.
Should there not just be one band where the film is joined together, why so many.
If 60" and below are in one piece, surely 65" should be just 2 pieces and then just one band where thery join ?

I will try and explain why there is multiple band lines in film. This may take awhile, but I will try and condense.



This is a film line similar to those that make the layers for the LED/LCD arrays used in our televisions. The horizontal stainless looking item with the multiple holes in it is the die, which takes the melted plastic and spreads it out across the width of the die, lets say 50" wide, and 1/4" thick. There is an opening along the entire width of the die where melted plastic is squeezed out in a long line-the length of this opening determines how wide the melted film is.



The die in this photo is on the far right. The melted plastic coming out of the die is squeezed between two textured rolls, which are cooled well below the melting point of the plastic. The melted plastic is solidified within an 1/8" after contacting the compressed rolls. This quick solidification causes various stress in the film, all the way across the entire width. These rolls may be turning anywhere from 5 to 500 feet per minute, depending on what you are making.
OK, anone ever measured a piece of steel or aluminum with a micrometer? Its not dead even in thickness all the way across the width. Same thing with film-they have a thickness tolerance of maybe +- 5% across the width. So film that is 0.030" thick may actually be .0285" to .0315" thick. Say I take measurements of the film thickness across the width with a micrometer after the film is finished. Here are my measurements, across the width--0.0287, 0.0296, 0.0313, 0.0289, 0.0312, 0.0290. The film meets specification because its +-5%, but is really not level.
Remember back in the previous paragraph when I told you I put stress in the film because I squeezed it between two rolls, and cooled it from a liquid to a solid very quickly? Now, the higher measurements have greater stresses in them than the lower micrometer measurements. I just measured 5 points across the film, but now imagine the highs as hills and the low measurements as valleys across the width of the film, going down the length of the film like little straight rivers. Remember, I've squeezed this film between two rolls, so the hills (high points) have much more stress in them than the valleys (low points). When you backlight or edge light the film in the array, these lows or highs looks like a band down the length of the film. I'm not sure if the banding is caused by a low area, or a high area.
If, like on the 65" sets, they splice two pieces of film together, you end up with banding across the entire web.
Either Samsung is having an issue when they make the 65"-it's process related, or the film they use for the 60" and below is of a litter better quality, or a little easier to keep the high and low stress out of it during its initial manufacture. I bet their technology department has this as their Number 1 problem to solve.
Samsung has to be losing money on the 65", another reason the amount of banding they seem to be allowing is increasing--the bottom line is they are doing the best they can with their present technology.
post #9656 of 16127
SAMSUNG keynote live! http://www.samsungces.com/live.aspx ;-)
post #9657 of 16127
post #9658 of 16127
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruegway View Post

I will try and explain why there is multiple band lines in film. This may take awhile, but I will try and condense.

This is a film line similar to those that make the layers for the LED/LCD arrays used in our televisions. The horizontal stainless looking item with the multiple holes in it is the die, which takes the melted plastic and spreads it out across the width of the die, lets say 50" wide, and 1/4" thick. There is an opening along the entire width of the die where melted plastic is squeezed out in a long line-the length of this opening determines how wide the melted film is.

The die in this photo is on the far right. The melted plastic coming out of the die is squeezed between two textured rolls, which are cooled well below the melting point of the plastic. The melted plastic is solidified within an 1/8" after contacting the compressed rolls. This quick solidification causes various stress in the film, all the way across the entire width. These rolls may be turning anywhere from 5 to 500 feet per minute, depending on what you are making.
OK, anone ever measured a piece of steel or aluminum with a micrometer? Its not dead even in thickness all the way across the width. Same thing with film-they have a thickness tolerance of maybe +- 5% across the width. So film that is 0.030" thick may actually be .0285" to .0315" thick. Say I take measurements of the film thickness across the width with a micrometer after the film is finished. Here are my measurements, across the width--0.0287, 0.0296, 0.0313, 0.0289, 0.0312, 0.0290. The film meets specification because its +-5%, but is really not level.
Remember back in the previous paragraph when I told you I put stress in the film because I squeezed it between two rolls, and cooled it from a liquid to a solid very quickly? Now, the higher measurements have greater stresses in them than the lower micrometer measurements. I just measured 5 points across the film, but now imagine the highs as hills and the low measurements as valleys across the width of the film, going down the length of the film like little straight rivers. Remember, I've squeezed this film between two rolls, so the hills (high points) have much more stress in them than the valleys (low points). When you backlight or edge light the film in the array, these lows or highs looks like a band down the length of the film. I'm not sure if the banding is caused by a low area, or a high area.
If, like on the 65" sets, they splice two pieces of film together, you end up with banding across the entire web.
Either Samsung is having an issue when they make the 65"-it's process related, or the film they use for the 60" and below is of a litter better quality, or a little easier to keep the high and low stress out of it during its initial manufacture. I bet their technology department has this as their Number 1 problem to solve.
Samsung has to be losing money on the 65", another reason the amount of banding they seem to be allowing is increasing--the bottom line is they are doing the best they can with their present technology.

And to the Guide it goes. Thanks, man!
post #9659 of 16127
Quote:
Originally Posted by vartaxe View Post

SAMSUNG keynote live! http://www.samsungces.com/live.aspx ;-)
F8000, wow...
post #9660 of 16127
If you look closely at the top photo, you can see banding in it, lol.
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