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Captivator S2 vs Orbit Shifter

post #1 of 118
3/13/12 at 1:37am
Thread Starter 
JTR just launched a dual 18inch sub, the cap s2... this is priced the same as the orbit shifter.

I wonder if anyone knows which will have more output?? The specs are not out yet.

This seems like a more 'house friendly' sub compared to the OS and if it's just as good as the OS, then it's a real nice option.
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post #2 of 118
3/13/12 at 2:39am
Orbit Shifter = greater output.
Cap2 = deeper.
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post #3 of 118
3/13/12 at 8:17am
I know one lucky SOB that will have both in their system this week, and no it is not me. I am waiting for my second powered Cap to come in, poor me.
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post #4 of 118
3/13/12 at 9:03am
Assuming the drivers are similar this should be easy to answer, mojomike said it right. The OS will have more output from the horn tune on up and below it's tune or loading the OS will act similar to a single sealed Cap. Since this is a double 18 sealed cap it will have at least 6 dbs more from the below the horn loading. I am assuming this because the single CapS has more output down low than the OS. I bet the OS has about 3-4 dBs more with the horn loading or 25hz and above. This assumes the same driver and I know Jeff changed that 18 to fit better in a sealed environment. Of course I am estimating here.
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post #5 of 118
3/14/12 at 12:23am
Thread Starter 
Let's hope Jeff will post some numbers soon...
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post #6 of 118
3/14/12 at 5:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

Orbit Shifter = greater output.
Cap2 = deeper.

That being said, they both go very deep and play very loud! I kind of like the fact that for the same price, with the Cap S2 you get the same amp but double the drivers as the Orbit Shifter. Seems like the better deal to me, ultimate SPL not withstanding.
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post #7 of 118
3/14/12 at 6:19am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgb540 View Post

That being said, they both go very deep and play very loud! I kind of like the fact that for the same price, with the Cap S2 you get the same amp but double the drivers as the Orbit Shifter. Seems like the better deal to me, ultimate SPL not withstanding.

Exactly my thoughts. I am also thinking that even though the OS is horn loaded, 2 drivers will still be able to match it's spl at all frequencies, unless the drivers used is far inferior. Plus, maybe cleaner bass (being sealed).

Plus, the S2 is much more 'house-friendly'
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post #8 of 118
3/14/12 at 7:44am
I just wish money wasn't an object. A cap S2 would look very nice across from my SubM, unless they cancelled each other out.
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post #9 of 118
3/14/12 at 9:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Exactly my thoughts. I am also thinking that even though the OS is horn loaded, 2 drivers will still be able to match it's spl at all frequencies, unless the drivers used is far inferior.

That I would not count on at all. Do not underestimate the efficiency gained by using a horn-loaded enclosure. For example, if we compare the efficiency of the OS (97db/watt) vs. the efficiency of the standard ported Cap (91db/watt), we see it would take two standard ported Caps to match the output of one OS if both used the same power.

The single driver CapS is going to be way less efficient than a standard ported Cap, meaning something less that 91 db/watt, probably much less around 20hz. When we double the drivers in the CapS2, we are still at something much less than 94db/watt efficiency compared with the OS at 97.

I'd expect the OS to excede the CapS2 in output at all frequencies, except perhaps the very deepest where the horn loses it's advantage.. As far as which would sound better, that's a whole 'nother question.
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post #10 of 118
3/14/12 at 10:56am
The Captivator S2 has about 6db more output capability below 20hz however the Orbit Shifter has about 6db more output capability above 20hz. The difference of 6db is the same as adding a secound subwoofer.
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post #11 of 118
3/14/12 at 11:31am
Thread Starter 
What about sound quality? Which one sounds better? With less distortion?

I already have dual ULS 15.. which would complement them better
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post #12 of 118
3/14/12 at 11:42am
I'm sure you read the blind test results. All the JTR's were neck and neck as far as sound quality. Horns topically have less distortion.
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post #13 of 118
3/14/12 at 12:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Permanian View Post

The Captivator S2 has about 6db more output capability below 20hz however the Orbit Shifter has about 6db more output capability above 20hz. The difference of 6db is the same as adding a secound subwoofer.

I was very close!
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post #14 of 118
3/14/12 at 5:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

What about sound quality? Which one sounds better? With less distortion?

I already have dual ULS 15.. which would complement them better

As far as the sound quality I would go with Jeff's comment that typically the horn has less distortion. You can read my subjective blind opinions on the KCGTG thread but I remember commenting that the sub did not seem to stand out and lend its own sound to the music or movie. I think that points to less distortion. And I think that we were not even close to the limits of that system and it was LOUD. Keep in mind when reading through the opinions that it was the last sub we listened to after a very long day so it took A LOT to impress us at that point. If you have the space for it and need to fill a large space and want ultra low distortion at insane SPL's I would be looking at the OS. The very very low frequency's were really really difficult for me to hear at the meet so I am not sure it is worth chasing 5 Hz.
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post #15 of 118
3/14/12 at 7:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedimastergrant View Post

I am not sure it is worth chasing 5 Hz.

As opposed to chasing another 6db max above 20hz? In real world conditions I would think that the 5hz would be more of a factor day to day than the 6db you may be missing at max spl. What's the OS capable of, like 135db? If the Cap S2 can only muster a measly 129, I think the owner could still show his or her face in public when they regained conciousness . plus if the the owner vertically stands the Cap S2 it takes up a very minimal about of floor space even compared to the OS LFU. Either way, both are TREMENDOUS performers.
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post #16 of 118
3/14/12 at 8:33pm
Yeah, I am sure the Cap S2 has PLENTY of output. I should qualify my previous preference statement by saying IF I could not have it all and had to choose, I would make sure I had awesome 20Hz and up performance first. Has the OP given the cubic footage? Be sure to ask Jeff about integration with your existing subs.
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post #17 of 118
3/14/12 at 8:47pm
i want to read more about the captivator s2 but can't seem to find any information on jtrspeakers.com about it.
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post #18 of 118
3/14/12 at 8:58pm
Jeff hasn't updated the products link with the Cap S or Cap S2 yet. There's a little info in the JTR forum
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post #19 of 118
3/15/12 at 8:31am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedimastergrant View Post

As far as the sound quality I would go with Jeff's comment that typically the horn has less distortion. You can read my subjective blind opinions on the KCGTG thread but I remember commenting that the sub did not seem to stand out and lend its own sound to the music or movie. I think that points to less distortion. And I think that we were not even close to the limits of that system and it was LOUD. Keep in mind when reading through the opinions that it was the last sub we listened to after a very long day so it took A LOT to impress us at that point. If you have the space for it and need to fill a large space and want ultra low distortion at insane SPL's I would be looking at the OS. The very very low frequency's were really really difficult for me to hear at the meet so I am not sure it is worth chasing 5 Hz.

Hey, thanks for the input... it's great to hear from someone who's actually listened to the OS... But if I remembered correctly, you were listening to the Cap S not the S2 so that may be a factor as well.

This might be a dumb question: Why would a horn loaded sub be cleaner than a sealed sub? Logically wouldn't any speakers with ports create noise, even if it's a little? Also, if the OS is tuned to 20hz, would that mean that at 20hz, it's extra loud, but at other frequencies, it's not as loud? Wouldn't that mean it's not a flat response?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidewayz View Post

As opposed to chasing another 6db max above 20hz? In real world conditions I would think that the 5hz would be more of a factor day to day than the 6db you may be missing at max spl. What's the OS capable of, like 135db? If the Cap S2 can only muster a measly 129, I think the owner could still show his or her face in public when they regained conciousness . plus if the the owner vertically stands the Cap S2 it takes up a very minimal about of floor space even compared to the OS LFU. Either way, both are TREMENDOUS performers.

Actually I am not looking at 5hz, but more like down to 10hz like my USL does. Subs that goes down to 10hz will give you a deeper feel (depth)... And this translates to 'a great feeling' to both music and movies.

BTW: 6db is quite a lot. This would mean in order to get that in the S2, you would need 2 of them. This may be what i need to give me that kick in the chest feeling when watching explosions in movies.

Oh, can anyone take a wild guess as to how many Epik Empires (each with dual 15 inch drivers) to equate the output of the OS?
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post #20 of 118
3/15/12 at 9:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Oh, can anyone take a wild guess as to how many Epik Empires (each with dual 15 inch drivers) to equate the output of the OS?

Oh boy, this is truly a wild guess.

I think it takes 2 SVS Ultras to = a Cap. 2 Powered Caps don't quite = an Orbit Shifter (according to Jeff The Caps would be close above 60 hz bit the OS's pull away below that) but let's say they are close enough.

So, it would take 4 Ultras to = an OS?!?! (boy, that doesn't seem right!!)

I'm guessing it would take 2 Empires to = an Ultra???

So 8 Empires = OS?

Just tell me to shut up, there is no way that's right...
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post #21 of 118
3/15/12 at 10:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Oh boy, this is truly a wild guess.

I think it takes 2 SVS Ultras to = a Cap. 2 Powered Caps don't quite = an Orbit Shifter (according to Jeff The Caps would be close above 60 hz bit the OS's pull away below that) but let's say they are close enough.

So, it would take 4 Ultras to = an OS?!?! (boy, that doesn't seem right!!)

I'm guessing it would take 2 Empires to = an Ultra???

So 8 Empires = OS?

Just tell me to shut up, there is no way that's right...

What makes it more difficult to compare this way is that some subs really excel at certain frequencies. For example, the Ultra is very strong around tuning, so in that area it has the output of two Empires there. However, one Empire will actually excede the output of one Ultra in the upper range from about 50hz and up making an exact ratio difficult to predict in the full range.
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post #22 of 118
3/15/12 at 10:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

BTW: 6db is quite a lot. This would mean in order to get that in the S2, you would need 2 of them.

I realize that, but 129ish db is no joke either and neither of those figures (129 or 135) would essentially NEVER come into play in even the most extreme listening session and absolutely never down very very deep. if you listened to anything that loud for any amount of time over a quick "check it out" session, you are going to have major hearing problems which will render all your audio gear pointless.

I guess my point was any advantage the Cap S2 may have over the OS in the ability to play waaaaay down low would be more useful (to me anyhow) than the OS advantage over the Cap S2 in ever so important area of deafening yourself (which the Cap S2 can do quite well anyhow).

Plus, like I said, for the same price you get a smaller footprint, same 4K watt amp, and (2) high quality 18" drivers instead of (1) HQ driver, a larger footprint and more BB plywood. I know where my money would go.
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post #23 of 118
3/15/12 at 10:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

What makes it more difficult to compare this way is that some subs really excel at certain frequencies. For example, the Ultra is very strong around tuning, so in that area it has the output of two Empires there. However, one Empire will actually excede the output of one Ultra in the upper range from about 50hz and up making an exact ratio difficult to predict in the full range.

Gotcha, makes sense.

That's what is impressing me so much with the Sumbersive so far, it seems to have both - big chest thump for music like the Empire, and tons of low freq output too like the Ultra. I'm not sure what it's weaknesses are.
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post #24 of 118
3/15/12 at 10:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidewayz View Post

I realize that, but 129ish db is no joke either and neither of those figures (129 or 135) would essentially NEVER come into play in even the most extreme listening session and absolutely never down very very deep. if you listened to anything that loud for any amount of time over a quick "check it out" session, you are going to have major hearing problems which will render all your audio gear pointless.

I guess my point was any advantage the Cap S2 may have over the OS in the ability to play waaaaay down low would be more useful (to me anyhow) than the OS advantage over the Cap S2 in ever so important area of deafening yourself (which the Cap S2 can do quite well anyhow).

Plus, like I said, for the same price you get a smaller footprint, same 4K watt amp, and (2) high quality 18" drivers instead of (1) HQ driver, a larger footprint and more BB plywood. I know where my money would go.

Ahhh, but I love those quick "check it out" sessions!!
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post #25 of 118
3/15/12 at 10:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

ahhh, but i love those quick "check it out" sessions!!

what? ........me too
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post #26 of 118
3/15/12 at 10:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I'm not sure what it's weaknesses are.

It's weakness is that it sounds so good it makes you want to buy another....and another....and another....even though you probably don't need it.

I only have 1 and would like another but currently can't afford it.

Mike
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post #27 of 118
3/15/12 at 10:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

What makes it more difficult to compare this way is that some subs really excel at certain frequencies. For example, the Ultra is very strong around tuning, so in that area it has the output of two Empires there. However, one Empire will actually excede the output of one Ultra in the upper range from about 50hz and up making an exact ratio difficult to predict in the full range.

I was about to say at least my the Empire excels where it matters most(based on where most music/movie frequencies resides)..............then I realized this is AVS
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post #28 of 118
3/15/12 at 11:03am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidewayz View Post

I realize that, but 129ish db is no joke either and neither of those figures (129 or 135) would essentially NEVER come into play in even the most extreme listening session and absolutely never down very very deep. if you listened to anything that loud for any amount of time over a quick "check it out" session, you are going to have major hearing problems which will render all your audio gear pointless.

I guess my point was any advantage the Cap S2 may have over the OS in the ability to play waaaaay down low would be more useful (to me anyhow) than the OS advantage over the Cap S2 in ever so important area of deafening yourself (which the Cap S2 can do quite well anyhow).

Plus, like I said, for the same price you get a smaller footprint, same 4K watt amp, and (2) high quality 18" drivers instead of (1) HQ driver, a larger footprint and more BB plywood. I know where my money would go.

Great points! Now I am back to 'can't make up my mind about the 2' when I finally buy em.

I am thinking i can only afford 1 of them. Say, if I bought the S2, and then realize I don't get enough chest thumping, I may be disappointed. But if I got the OS, then don't get enough low freq, I may also be disappointed! Hrumph!!
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post #29 of 118
3/15/12 at 11:16am
You won't dissappinted about not getting the low frequencies with the orbit shifter. To think so is avs nonsense. Nobody could even tell in our blind test which sub was ported or sealed and the ported subs were set at 15 and 16hz and we demoed the most prestigious ulf demo material currently known with some of the best sealed and ported commercial/ID products that you can purchase.

The orbit shifter has solid fr down to 9 or 10hz right? A full half octave to octave below what you can actually hear.
I think you can safely put that fear of missing something to rest.
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post #30 of 118
3/15/12 at 11:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post


Great points! Now I am back to 'can't make up my mind about the 2' when I finally buy em.

I am thinking i can only afford 1 of them. Say, if I bought the S2, and then realize I don't get enough chest thumping, I may be disappointed. But if I got the OS, then don't get enough low freq, I may also be disappointed! Hrumph!!

I definitely wouldn't over think it. You are going to get major chest thump and great low frequency with either of those two products. I know it's hard not to hem and haw back and forth.....it's exciting. And you'll even wonder "what if" whichever way you end up going. But with either of those two products?..........fugetaboutit!........both will give you want you want in spades.
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