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Captivator S2 vs Orbit Shifter - Page 2

post #31 of 119
I don't have either of these(I have a SubMersive HP) but I sense some analysis paralysis setting in. From what I have READ about the OS and the regular Cap. it seems they are both fantastic subs. I really don't think you would feel slighted if you got either one. I mean RMK, granted he has dual OS's I don't think has complained of felt he was missing anything. How much chest thumping do you need? I mean, again, based on what I have read, I don't think anybody complained about chest thumping with the Cap. And I really don't think the OS will be so bad on the low stuff that TRON and HTTYD will sound like crap. Get whatever fits your room and budget. I really doubt the "regret" demon will be nipping at your heals if you buy either one.
(Man I type slow. Kevin and Archaea just about said what I just wrote)
post #32 of 119
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

You won't dissappinted about not getting the low frequencies with the orbit shifter. To think so is avs nonsense. Nobody could even tell in our blind test which sub was ported or sealed and the ported subs were set at 15 and 16hz and we demoed the most prestigious ulf demo material currently known with some of the best sealed and ported commercial/ID products that you can purchase.

The orbit shifter has solid fr down to 9 or 10hz right? A full half octave to octave below what you can actually hear.
I think you can safely put that fear of missing something to rest.

I took a look at your Blind Shootout (actually read almost all of it). This is what I am getting from it.

The OS = 5th in the Music category out of 7 subs. Could this mean it's not musical?? And could it be because of it's lack of lower fr? I know music sounds incredible with lower fr.

The OS = 3rd in the Movie category.

And in BOTH cat, lost to the Captivator.

Oh, but it's still so, so tempting. Of course, the Captivator did so well, the Cap S2 may be even better...
post #33 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post


I took a look at your Blind Shootout (actually read almost all of it). This is what I am getting from it.

The OS = 5th in the Music category out of 7 subs. Could this mean it's not musical?? And could it be because of it's lack of lower fr? I know music sounds incredible with lower fr.

The OS = 3rd in the Movie category.

And in BOTH cat, lost to the Captivator.

Oh, but it's still so, so tempting. Of course, the Captivator did so well, the Cap S2 may be even better...

Again, I wouldn't read too much into the numbers either. As was stated, almost nobody could tell ported from sealed. The OS got plenty of high music scores too. I've had a bunch of subs over the last 10+ years, both ported, sealed, and now horn ranging from 8" to 18" and none have frankly disappointed me with music or movies when used within their parameters. I agree, get what fits your room, budget and eye/gut feeling and let er rip
post #34 of 119
coolgeek, you do realize that the more time you go back and forth, is less time you will have enjoying whatever you get
post #35 of 119
It is a good sized expenditure so always good to measure twice, cut once.

I had a couple of my companies tech guys over for a first time system demo the other evening. They are both youngish musicians and into among other genres that Dubstep stuff that many here are so fond of. Well I don't care for that sound myself but the look on their faces when I ran the system up to +10-+12 reference was priceless.

Almost as good as when I demoed the Knowing and FOTF plane crash scenes at -5 . Bottom line (pun intended) is that these subs (and my other speakers) make for a pretty amazing listening experience.

Yeah, I'm happy ...
post #36 of 119
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIkeDuke View Post

coolgeek, you do realize that the more time you go back and forth, is less time you will have enjoying whatever you get

Had to wait for a while yet anyways until my house renovation is underway. Could be months away. Still at research phase, but have zeroed in on JTR Speakers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

It is a good sized expenditure so always good to measure twice, cut once.

I had a couple of my companies tech guys over for a first time system demo the other evening. They are both youngish musicians and into among other genres that Dubstep stuff that many here are so fond of. Well I don't care for that sound myself but the look on their faces when I ran the system up to +10-+12 reference was priceless.

Almost as good as when I demoed the Knowing and FOTF plane crash scenes at -5 . Bottom line (pun intended) is that these subs (and my other speakers) make for a pretty amazing listening experience.

Yeah, I'm happy ...

Just checked out your HT Build thread. Pretty cool stuff.. Double OS.. *drool* Ok, since you have 2 OS, mind if I asked whether if you had only 1, will be your satisfied or it's just not enough bass yet?
post #37 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Had to wait for a while yet anyways until my house renovation is underway. Could be months away. Still at research phase, but have zeroed in on JTR Speakers.



Just checked out your HT Build thread. Pretty cool stuff.. Double OS.. *drool* Ok, since you have 2 OS, mind if I asked whether if you had only 1, will be your satisfied or it's just not enough bass yet?

I had an intermittent amp problem (one of the first 4K Amps Jeff sold) and so was down to one OS for a week or so. Frankly, once I adjusted the levels in my SSP I could not tell much if any difference. I did not re-run Audyssey or measure room response but from a purely subjective perspective, one OS was plenty.

Now, I didn't run the system up to +10 back then either ... that was just crazy loud .
post #38 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Had to wait for a while yet anyways until my house renovation is underway. Could be months away. Still at research phase, but have zeroed in on JTR Speakers.

Understood. I was just messin' around
post #39 of 119
Yes, the cap S2 was not at the meet but we listened to 2 cap s's and that should be very very close to one S2.

Again, I really would not worry about the extension. One of the things I listened to at the meet extremely closely was the extension in hopes that it would clue me in to the configuration of the subs. I could rarely perceive a difference in extension. Sometimes yes, but other factors always contributed to my overall enjoyment of the subs. And I should practice what I preach as I am currently a bit hung up on the extension issue. I think it is so difficult because you are afraid you are missing out on something.

As to the music performance. First of all I felt the music performance was much more similar between the subs. It was the movies that differentiated them for me usually a little more than the music. My perception of the OS when playing music was that it had very good extension.

One of the defining characteristics for me with the OS (and this is backed up by my subjective writing done before I knew the identity of the subs) was that it seemed to be very clean and did not necessarily lend it's own sound to the music. I also said that the sub did not really stick out and that this may be a good thing. I think this points to lower distortion and that we had lots of headroom to go for the OS. If you are looking for the cleanest sound then I would go with the OS.

And of course I agree that you can't go wrong with either one. Corner loading the OS adds greatly to the low end per JTR site. One of the reasons I have not pulled the trigger on the OS is it would be very hard for me to corner load it. Maybe I should take my own advice and not stress out about missing a few low end Hz that I could not perceive in the blind listening anyway.

I am very intrigued to hear that RMK could barely tell the difference btwn 1 and 2 of these in his room. I am sure proper placement and EQ is key to this. How big is his room again? I will have only 2700 cubic feet.
post #40 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedimastergrant View Post

Yes, the cap S2 was not at the meet but we listened to 2 cap s's and that should be very very close to one S2.

Again, I really would not worry about the extension. One of the things I listened to at the meet extremely closely was the extension in hopes that it would clue me in to the configuration of the subs. I could rarely perceive a difference in extension. Sometimes yes, but other factors always contributed to my overall enjoyment of the subs. And I should practice what I preach as I am currently a bit hung up on the extension issue. I think it is so difficult because you are afraid you are missing out on something.

As to the music performance. First of all I felt the music performance was much more similar between the subs. It was the movies that differentiated them for me usually a little more than the music. My perception of the OS when playing music was that it had very good extension.

One of the defining characteristics for me with the OS (and this is backed up by my subjective writing done before I knew the identity of the subs) was that it seemed to be very clean and did not necessarily lend it's own sound to the music. I also said that the sub did not really stick out and that this may be a good thing. I think this points to lower distortion and that we had lots of headroom to go for the OS. If you are looking for the cleanest sound then I would go with the OS.

And of course I agree that you can't go wrong with either one. Corner loading the OS adds greatly to the low end per JTR site. One of the reasons I have not pulled the trigger on the OS is it would be very hard for me to corner load it. Maybe I should take my own advice and not stress out about missing a few low end Hz that I could not perceive in the blind listening anyway.

I am very intrigued to hear that RMK could barely tell the difference btwn 1 and 2 of these in his room. I am sure proper placement and EQ is key to this. How big is his room again? I will have only 2700 cubic feet.

My room is 3600^3 sealed. My OS's are in an alcove (15' wide by 28" deep) in the front of the room. Each OS has the horn exit within 18" of the rooms front corners. That definitely qualifies as corner loaded and I'm sure that contributes to my subs ULF performance.

Like you, I find the <18hz non-audible stuff fun but not my highest priority. The clean, seemingly infinite power of the OS's in the 18-100Hz frequencies makes them worth the money I paid and is why, despite my joking around, they have a permanent home in my HT.
post #41 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedimastergrant View Post

Yes, the cap S2 was not at the meet but we listened to 2 cap s's and that should be very very close to one S2.

Again, I really would not worry about the extension. One of the things I listened to at the meet extremely closely was the extension in hopes that it would clue me in to the configuration of the subs. I could rarely perceive a difference in extension. Sometimes yes, but other factors always contributed to my overall enjoyment of the subs. And I should practice what I preach as I am currently a bit hung up on the extension issue. I think it is so difficult because you are afraid you are missing out on something.

As to the music performance. First of all I felt the music performance was much more similar between the subs. It was the movies that differentiated them for me usually a little more than the music. My perception of the OS when playing music was that it had very good extension.

One of the defining characteristics for me with the OS (and this is backed up by my subjective writing done before I knew the identity of the subs) was that it seemed to be very clean and did not necessarily lend it's own sound to the music. I also said that the sub did not really stick out and that this may be a good thing. I think this points to lower distortion and that we had lots of headroom to go for the OS. If you are looking for the cleanest sound then I would go with the OS.

And of course I agree that you can't go wrong with either one. Corner loading the OS adds greatly to the low end per JTR site. One of the reasons I have not pulled the trigger on the OS is it would be very hard for me to corner load it. Maybe I should take my own advice and not stress out about missing a few low end Hz that I could not perceive in the blind listening anyway.

I am very intrigued to hear that RMK could barely tell the difference btwn 1 and 2 of these in his room. I am sure proper placement and EQ is key to this. How big is his room again? I will have only 2700 cubic feet.

I think RMK is just saying that a single OS has enough output and power to fill his space to ref. Two, when calibrated and level matched wont sound any different or louder......unless he raised them hot of course. Two could help smooth freq. response but otherwise sound the same but just loaf along with ease and tons of headroom.
post #42 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIkeDuke View Post

I don't have either of these(I have a SubMersive HP) but I sense some analysis paralysis setting in. From what I have READ about the OS and the regular Cap. it seems they are both fantastic subs. I really don't think you would feel slighted if you got either one. I mean RMK, granted he has dual OS's I don't think has complained of felt he was missing anything. How much chest thumping do you need? I mean, again, based on what I have read, I don't think anybody complained about chest thumping with the Cap. And I really don't think the OS will be so bad on the low stuff that TRON and HTTYD will sound like crap. Get whatever fits your room and budget. I really doubt the "regret" demon will be nipping at your heals if you buy either one.
(Man I type slow. Kevin and Archaea just about said what I just wrote)

Trouble is that this chest tumping search will just keep going on. As soon as someone comes out with another "the subwoofer", the crazy lust starts.
post #43 of 119
Jedimaster, your thoughts on the OS and music are very good I think. It says to me two thngs. First, is that it is a great sub that does not call itself out into the open when listening to music. Second, is that you guys did a great job of integrating the sub with the system. Not to pull this thread too off topic but one quick story. After I had Craig and Dennis setup my system, I listened for a few days. I listened to 2ch because I like to listen to muisc. I remember Craig saying that when my Integra 80.2 is in stereo mode, the sub was engaged. But when I listened all I heard was music. Not bass heavy or anything like that. I could have sworn that the sub was off. So I wrote Craig with my thoughts. He said trust me, the sub is on. So the next time I played some music I put my hand on the cone and sure enough, it was moving. I said well I'll be damned. It was setup so well that it did not call atention to it self. But when I listen in stereo and turn it off and on, only then can I tell the difference. To me, that is the mark of a great setup and a great sub. It sounds like the OS is a great sub. I know everyone wants that last bit of whatever is on a disk. I admit, I want it also. But it really sounds like with these two, you will be getting a fantastic sub for just about everything that is out there.
post #44 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post


My room is 3600^3 sealed. My OS's are in an alcove (15' wide by 28" deep) in the front of the room. Each OS has the horn exit within 18" of the rooms front corners. That definitely qualifies as corner loaded and I'm sure that contributes to my subs ULF performance.

Like you, I find the <18hz non-audible stuff fun but not my highest priority. The clean, seemingly infinite power of the OS's in the 18-100Hz frequencies makes them worth the money I paid and is why, despite my joking around, they have a permanent home in my HT.

BTW RMK, I moved some stuff out of the room I wasn't using like a desk and some misc. stuff..........and moved in the 2nd OS . My pre/pro is out getting some upgrades but when I get it back, both OSs are going for a ride at the same time. I've got one at about the midpoint on each side wall(really only option in this small temp room). I did get to listen to a lot of stuff last weekend before my processor went in.....just one OS hooked up..........and have to say I am mighty impressed and pleased.
post #45 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinH View Post

BTW RMK, I moved some stuff out of the room I wasn't using like a desk and some misc. stuff..........and moved in the 2nd OS . My pre/pro is out getting some upgrades but when I get it back, both OSs are going for a ride at the same time. I've got one at about the midpoint on each side wall(really only option in this small temp room). I did get to listen to a lot of stuff last weekend before my processor went in.....just one OS hooked up..........and have to say I am mighty impressed and pleased.

Good prioritization ...

Two of them is ... interesting
post #46 of 119
Thread Starter 
Tending more and more towards the OS now... but my mind can change all of a sudden.. haha...

this thread is great, and I am glad I started it.. I have now learned quite a bit about the 2 subs...
post #47 of 119
Thanks to Jeff's Open House today, I got the opportunity to listen to dual Captivator 1000's and Dual Orbit shifters. I have not heard the Captivator S2's, but I did see the cabinets, and I would be very interested in hearing them with the 4,000 amp (same amp as the Orbit shifter).
post #48 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by pennynike1 View Post

Thanks to Jeff's Open House today, I got the opportunity to listen to dual Captivator 1000's and Dual Orbit shifters. I have not heard the Captivator S2's, but I did see the cabinets, and I would be very interested in hearing them with the 4,000 amp (same amp as the Orbit shifter).

How would you compare the two?
post #49 of 119
PM sent Hksvr4
post #50 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Permanian View Post

The Captivator S2 has about 6db more output capability below 20hz however the Orbit Shifter has about 6db more output capability above 20hz. The difference of 6db is the same as adding a secound subwoofer.

So essentially: the OShifter will have the upper hand (in the output dept) with at least 97% of the content the .1/LFE channel will ever see with movies and about 99.5% with music. That's 20+hz.

James
post #51 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

So essentially: the OShifter will have the upper hand (in the output dept) with at least 97% of the content the .1/LFE channel will ever see with movies and about 99.5% with music. That's 20+hz.

James

Only if you exceed the capability of the S2 where the OS will still have output!
post #52 of 119
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Only if you exceed the capability of the S2 where the OS will still have output!

From my experience, you almost always exceed the capability of your subwoofers.. no matter how many subs you have, you want more!!!

BTW: If I can only afford one of the two, which do you recommend? I use it 90% for movies. I am conflicted. On the one hand, the Orbit Shifter is like having two S2s in frequencies above 20hz, but on the other the S2 is like having 2 orbit shifters with freq below 20hz. I am just wondering which one would sound better if you can only have ONE in a hometheater application.
post #53 of 119
What sort of output do you need and how big is your room? For me, one ported passive Captivator + a PB13 (both tuned to 15hz) easily exceeds my needs. I sometimes listen at reference levels and my room is over 6000 cu. ft. and is wide open to the whole house. The subs are set a few db hot. If I had them 10db hot, I'd probably need more subs. As it is, I've got more headroom than I know what to do with.

If you figure out that the S2 will give you enough output, then it should be the better choice with a flatter bottom end.
post #54 of 119
Thread Starter 
I like the sound of sealed subs vs ported. For some reasons, my experiences with ported subs is that they are a bit noisier.. they also rattle the things in my room more.. but sealed subs don't tend to do that even when they are playing at the same volume. I think it's probably because of the 'noise'.

In your case, your ported Captivator probably gives you more headroom. So, it may actually equal two sealed caps!
post #55 of 119
The OS is a horn sub with a sealed driver so it has 10 dBs of more output within the Horn and then sounds like a sealed sub below the horn's knee. This is why the S2 has 6 dBs more output below 20hz(under the horn). It is comparing one driver vs two. With the Horn engaged the single 18 pulls away. I would want the S2 over the OS only if an S2 will have the output you are looking for above 20hz. If it does then like Mojomike said the S2 will have a flatter response and a wider bandwidth. Remember, do not compromise the audible range for the inaudible, make sure you have enough headroom from 20-100hz before chasing below 20hz. This will depend on your room, placement, and listening habits.
post #56 of 119
I'm considering all sorts of avenues with my next "sub-move" so I'm reviving this thread a bit I guess.

I have to tell you, that after reading the in-room response people are seeing from the orbit shifters to down to 7-10hz I'm really starting to wonder just how much of an advantage the S2 has down real, real low. 100+db output at 10hz?! Jesus.

Perhaps it's much like the OS's at or above it's tuning point that MK and I mentioned earlier? Yep it's there, but does it matter so long as you're not eclipsing the others limits?

The efficiency and reduced distortion of the Orbit S really has me leaning it's way now.

Thoughts?

Anyone with an orbit shifer(s) are to share their opinions/in room response?

Thanks!


James
post #57 of 119
Wouldn't it be great to see some third party testing of the subs by Josh Ricci in order to clearly define which of the subs would be best for someone's needs?
post #58 of 119
Out of all the subwoofers out there the OS is the only one that
intimidates me a little.
Even with the S2 no worries, I'll take 2
but something I have read about the OS was someone having
inner ear problems after purchasing it.
9' or 10' ceilings no problem but 7' or 8' and a sealed room mabey.
I would hate to get a subwoofer that sends me to the doctor'
Now that said
Give me duals
Chris
The OS represents the top of its class so I don't think there is a
"next level" after it. Just more OS's
I think it would give the physical feeling of the ported Cap but
with less distortion and get room gain advantage of a sealed sub.
Edited by countryWV - 9/9/12 at 10:11am
post #59 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

Wouldn't it be great to see some third party testing of the subs by Josh Ricci in order to clearly define which of the subs would be best for someone's needs?

Yes, that would be great ... but, the logistics/cost issues of this are not inconsiderable. Jeff posted the raw in room response of the OS's in my room when they were first setup. Each room will be different and although it would be great to have consistent third party measurements of all of these oft discussed subs, it just isn't practical. That is why the GTG's that some forum members have been hosting are so great. It gives those who are lucky enough to attend a first hand look/listen.

The other issue is the sound. Measurements do not tell the whole story and numbers can be as misleading as enthusiastic owners opinions. IMHO smile.gif
post #60 of 119
Excuse my ignorance as I just now started reading about the S2, but what would be all the pros/cons of dual PB13 Ultras in 15hz tune which I have now vs 1 S2? What are the dimensions of the S2? I have been curious about trying a sealed sub setup in my smaller room for years. My room is 12' wide by 17.5 deep and about 8' high, so I am thinking maybe sealed might perform better in this smaller type room?
Edited by Toe - 9/9/12 at 10:32am
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