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Captivator S2 vs Orbit Shifter - Page 3

post #61 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

What sort of output do you need and how big is your room? For me, one ported passive Captivator + a PB13 (both tuned to 15hz) easily exceeds my needs. I sometimes listen at reference levels and my room is over 6000 cu. ft. and is wide open to the whole house. The subs are set a few db hot. If I had them 10db hot, I'd probably need more subs. As it is, I've got more headroom than I know what to do with.


If you figure out that the S2 will give you enough output, then it should be the better choice with a flatter bottom end.

I also have a 6000CF room (non sealed) and am trying to decide between one OS ULF or one CapS2
I love to listen to music with good quality bass and same for movies. So I need 1 sub to perform both duties at a very high level.
I had a PC13U for a short period of time but returned it because it wasn't nearly strong enough for my room, for my taste, especially in the mid and upper bass department.

With that said, can y'all recommend where I should go? Its worth noting I will not be able to truly corner load either of these subs.

Thanks.
post #62 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by digital911 View Post

I also have a 6000CF room (non sealed) and am trying to decide between one OS ULF or one CapS2
I love to listen to music with good quality bass and same for movies. So I need 1 sub to perform both duties at a very high level.
I had a PC13U for a short period of time but returned it because it wasn't nearly strong enough for my room, for my taste, especially in the mid and upper bass department.

With that said, can y'all recommend where I should go? Its worth noting I will not be able to truly corner load either of these subs.

Thanks.

See the bold in your statement, this means you need the OS for sure! I will put this in easy to see terms for you. Per Jeff, the S2 has 6 dBs more output than the OS below 20hz and the OS has 6 dBs more above 20hz. What this means is the OS is like having 4 sealed 18's(cap1 sealed) above 20hz and 1 sealed 18 under 18. The S2 is two sealed 18's throughout the band. RMK!'s system is like having a 8x18 system above 20hz and why we know what he feels up there with DIY but that leaves him with only two sealed 18's below 20 hz and we still have 8x18. The difference of course is more cost for that extra low end which has always been the case. The OS is an easy way to get 4x18 over 20hz in one tidy(eek.gif) package. Seriously though, 4 18's would take up about the same plave but now you have to pay for the 3 extra drivers anyways. The advantage is the low end and if you want the low end in your size room you need to spend(or DIY)
post #63 of 119
Another option is to do what I have done and use a single OS for 25-80Hz and then add a couple sealed 18's for the 0-25Hz. With the narrow operating band you can boost the sh!t out of them safely and have a very smooth response from about 5-80Hz with only 3 drivers. Everyone is afraid of mixing the horn and sealed alignments but I have had no issue making mine play nicely. I just tweaked the delay on the sealed a tiny bit with my minidsp and everything smoothed right out.
post #64 of 119
Good comments all:

A couple of months ago a Forum member and dedicated DIY'er came by for a demo of the OS's. Here are his impressions:
Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeamdman

RMK was gracious enough to give a demo of his system tonight. I was in the Sacramento area for work and sent him a PM.
There were two things I wanted to hear, and both happen to be JTR products… The Triple12, and the OS. It just so happens, he recently sold the T12s and has bran new Neosis for LCR. Even better!
First off, his theater room is awesome. Aesthetically pleasing, spacious, great acoustics after what he’s done to it, and the AT screen is just beautiful. My theater room, called “the dungeon”, or “the scary room” by my wife, looks even worse now, and that shouldn’t be possible. Thanks a lot, Rob…
Anyway, on to my impressions, and I think Jeff did a fantastic job with the Neosis. I’ve been dabbling in the DIY world, most recently working on building crossovers, and for the 12s in the Neosis to blend in as well and they do with the CD, Jeff is really doing a quality job with that crossover. Just amazing. I don’t want to guess as to how many hours he put into R&D for the crossover for this speaker! Highs were crisp and clean, not harsh, and the mids blended seamlessly and were very detailed. At several points in the demo Rob exceeded +5db in the main volume, and Neosis didn’t even blink. Never sounded strained or distorted ever.
As for the bass, I feel I’ve heard the best of what’s out there, and I wasn’t expecting to being impressed by two 18s, regardless of their configuration. I was definitely wrong! For starters, the obit shifters are HUGE. Pictures don’t paint the whole picture here. Second, having never heard a horn loaded sub before, they do have a “unique” sound to them, and I’m saying that in a completely positive way. Great punch, great detail, and great sub 20hz response and tactile feel. I know for a fact that at certain points in the demo the orbit shifters exceeded 125db, and they did so effortlessly. Considering I have quad LMS 5400s and 16kw worth of power feeding them, I didn’t expect two 18s and half the power to accomplish what they did. I may have to build four “gjallarhorn” enclosures for my 5400s now
Thanks for the demo, Rob!

He is in the process of building his horn subs and I am keep track of his progress cool.gif. For me, the interesting part is his take on sealed vs folded horn subs sound.
post #65 of 119
WE need to keep things in perspective, when demoing dual OS's it is like having an 8x18 system from 20hz and up and will always trump a 4x 18 sealed system as spl and punch is concerned.
post #66 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

WE need to keep things in perspective, when demoing dual OS's it is like having an 8x18 system from 20hz and up and will always trump a 4x 18 sealed system as spl and punch is concerned.

Thanks for the perspective and that is consistent with what Luke said. In an attempt to "keep things in perspective" he (Luke) is using a very expensive and powerful sub drivers (LMS 5400's) in his sealed subs and is powering them with one of the LG clones (a working one smile.gif). That is going to yield different performance characteristics than an array of inexpensive 18" drivers.

In the end it is all about what you hear and feel and what you are willing to do and spend to get there. cool.gif
post #67 of 119
Don't get me wrong, I love horns and was using them before many(crappy pro audio) but they did get me 110 dBs with the famous pulse scene. The trade off is money for the low end. A horn gains ou about 10-12 dBs within it's path so it is like having four drivers and the cap driver being 30mm of x-max is only down 3-4 dBs from the LMS driver at 38mm(10hz). At 20hz and above the Cap driver could very well be very close to the LMS driver. The 34mm UXL-18 has more output above 20hz than the LMS 5400.
post #68 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Don't get me wrong, I love horns and was using them before many(crappy pro audio) but they did get me 110 dBs with the famous pulse scene. The trade off is money for the low end. A horn gains ou about 10-12 dBs within it's path so it is like having four drivers and the cap driver being 30mm of x-max is only down 3-4 dBs from the LMS driver at 38mm(10hz). At 20hz and above the Cap driver could very well be very close to the LMS driver. The 34mm UXL-18 has more output above 20hz than the LMS 5400.

MK, I believe you believe what you are saying. Since there is no direct S2 vs Orbit Shifter comparison, the purpose in my re-posting Luke's comments was to give an actual in-person live demo perspective on the sound quality of a sealed alignment vs a folded horn and their relative performance. No need to go into the deep end of the pool on driver excursion and theoretical SPL.smile.gif
post #69 of 119
JUst trying to show how I come up with the comparisons based on measured great drivers. Just look at the GH vs the LMS sealed comparison. The sealed has more output at 10hz but then the GH takes off within the horn!
post #70 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Thanks for the perspective and that is consistent with what Luke said. In an attempt to "keep things in perspective" he (Luke) is using a very expensive and powerful sub drivers (LMS 5400's) in his sealed subs and is powering them with one of the LG clones (a working one smile.gif). That is going to yield different performance characteristics than an array of inexpensive 18" drivers.

In the end it is all about what you hear and feel and what you are willing to do and spend to get there. cool.gif
I'd love to hear your system too bud!

I think one thing to also consider is what type of foundation your theater is built on. IIRC, Luke's on a slab of concrete and felt that there was very little tactile feel in the ULF range. In his case it would make total and complete sense to try out a couple of LMS horns and maximize their potential in the frequency range that benefits HIS setup/room the most. I have pretty much the same sub system he has, and in MY room (wooden structure) the ULF's definitely have a tactile presence you can feel.
post #71 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post

I'd love to hear your system too bud!

I think one thing to also consider is what type of foundation your theater is built on. IIRC, Luke's on a slab of concrete and felt that there was very little tactile feel in the ULF range. In his case it would make total and complete sense to try out a couple of LMS horns and maximize their potential in the frequency range that benefits HIS setup/room the most. I have pretty much the same sub system he has, and in MY room (wooden structure) the ULF's definitely have a tactile presence you can feel.

I agree, my HT is on a second story suspended floor and even though it is reinforced (extra joists and bracing) it still moves a lot. BTW, you are welcome to visit any time ... smile.gif
post #72 of 119
Yeah, but my twin S2s look great naked (with the grill off), so take that OS owners eek.gifsmile.gif

In seriousness, I did talk to Jeff before I ordered my subs and for my set-up, room configuration, user habits, etc.... he recommended the S2. I was also considering the OS at the time. I would still love to hear an OS at some point but I don't think there is anybody close to me that owns one.
Edited by Frohlich - 2/21/13 at 9:59am
post #73 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I agree, my HT is on a second story suspended floor and even though it is reinforced (extra joists and bracing) it still moves a lot. BTW, you are welcome to visit any time ... smile.gif
2nd floor??!!! NICE!! My buddy down the street (and fellow AVS member) is also on a 2nd floor loft. His HT seating should include seat belts!

Next time im up north i'll shoot you a PM. smile.gif
post #74 of 119
If I had to pick between the S2 and OS, I'd choose the OS.

One of my sealed dual 5400 towers would best an S2 (it should because of better drivers and twice the amp power), but quad sealed 5400's just couldn't compete with dual OS above 25hz. Honestly, it wasn't even close.
post #75 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeamdman View Post

If I had to pick between the S2 and OS, I'd choose the OS.

One of my sealed dual 5400 towers would best an S2 (it should because of better drivers and twice the amp power), but quad sealed 5400's just couldn't compete with dual OS above 25hz. Honestly, it wasn't even close.

I already stated why.
post #76 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I already stated why.

I'm backing up your statement with real world experience. You're welcome:)
post #77 of 119
Thank You, and vice versa, backing up subjective comments with real data. UXL-18 is greater than LMS 5400 above 20hz. Cap driver is close to UXL-18(x-max) so assuming the Cap driver is close to LMS 5400 above 20hz. Now horn load it and gain 10-12 dBs and now you have 4 drivers in one. Dual OS is like having 8 drivers 20hz and above. As stated, it is hard to compare in different rooms as well. If you want full band flat horns are not the best to get there. I would love to see an OS measured by Ricci.
post #78 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

See the bold in your statement, this means you need the OS for sure! I will put this in easy to see terms for you. Per Jeff, the S2 has 6 dBs more output than the OS below 20hz and the OS has 6 dBs more above 20hz. What this means is the OS is like having 4 sealed 18's(cap1 sealed) above 20hz and 1 sealed 18 under 18. The S2 is two sealed 18's throughout the band. RMK!'s system is like having a 8x18 system above 20hz and why we know what he feels up there with DIY but that leaves him with only two sealed 18's below 20 hz and we still have 8x18. The difference of course is more cost for that extra low end which has always been the case. The OS is an easy way to get 4x18 over 20hz in one tidy(eek.gif) package. Seriously though, 4 18's would take up about the same plave but now you have to pay for the 3 extra drivers anyways. The advantage is the low end and if you want the low end in your size room you need to spend(or DIY)

Would 1 OS outperform the the PC13U in ULF?

Same for the CAP2, will it outperform the PC13U in ULF?

I was somewhat satisfied with ULF on the PC13U, so if either the Cap2 or OS will do just as good, or better, that's acceptable. I know for sure the mid and upper bass will blow away a PC13U from either the Cap2 or even more OS.

Then the next question becomes preference with sound quality. I have no idea what a horn sounds like. I know I like sealed subs over ported though... So the extra output of the OS is good, but will I like the way it sounds, I have no idea. Any input?
post #79 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeamdman View Post

If I had to pick between the S2 and OS, I'd choose the OS.
Especially when the DEEP stuff doesnt do much in your room. Kind of defeats the purpose of going multipled sealed for the added extension.

You know what would be interesting? Having one of our quad LMS systems in RMK's 2nd floor room. Wonder what he would think about sacrificing some (wasted???) headroom for the extension?
post #80 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by digital911 View Post

Would 1 OS outperform the the PC13U in ULF? under 16hz

Same for the CAP2, will it outperform the PC13U in ULF? Yes

I was somewhat satisfied with ULF on the PC13U, so if either the Cap2 or OS will do just as good, or better, that's acceptable. I know for sure the mid and upper bass will blow away a PC13U from either the Cap2 or even more OS. Correct

Then the next question becomes preference with sound quality. I have no idea what a horn sounds like. I know I like sealed subs over ported though... So the extra output of the OS is good, but will I like the way it sounds, I have no idea. Any input?

You probably will like them better, just a hunch wink.gif
post #81 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post



You probably will like them better, just a hunch wink.gif

So the OS would be equivalent to the PC13U say between 16-23HZ? But way stronger above and a little stronger below?

Does the OS have any "ringing" sound qualities? On data-bass.com they say the horn will tend to have ringing effects to it. I definitely don't want that.
post #82 of 119
I have never heard the OS or PC ultra. I am just going by the many you have said they like their JTR products better than the PC ultra, in sound quality. The SVS is ported so around tune, the 15 hz tune, it might hang but maybe from 16-18hz. Below that the sealed 18 in the OS will dominate and above that the horn takes over and game over! I would think you would be blown away!
post #83 of 119
How is the pb13 going to keep up with anything jtr at any frequency spl contest?

13" driver vs 18"
Less power handling on svs.


What is excursion capability on pb13?
post #84 of 119
Based on Ricci's measurements of ultra vs sealed UXL-18. The OS has a sealed 18 so from 15-19hz or so the ported 13 does well. The horn only loads from about 21-22hz and up which then acts like 4 sealed 18's and again, no contest. So if we take near equal 15-19 hz performance but gets slaughtered everywhere else I would bet lots of money which one would be preferred. Of course sealed vs sealed the 18 wins, or ported vs ported, etc...
post #85 of 119
I have an honest question for you guys about subwoofers since you understand the science of it much better then I do. All this capability the OS has above 20HZ...isn't it just headroom. In other words, if you are playing reference level for example and the scene has bass which requires 75db at 30hz and all three subwoofers (SVS 13, S2, OS) can play that loud, then the fact the the OS COULD play it much louder does you no good since the scene doesn't call for it? Is it just theoritical headroom that never gets tapped into unless you really crank the volume knob?
Edited by Frohlich - 2/22/13 at 5:23am
post #86 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post

I have an honest question for you guys about subwoofers since you understand the science of it much better then I do. All this capability the OS has above 20HZ...isn't it just headroom. In other words, if you are playing reference level for example and the scene has bass which requires 75db at 30hz and all three subwoofers (SVS 13, S2, OS) can play that loud, then the fact the the OS COULD play it much louder does you no good since the scene doesn't call for it? Is it just theoritical headroom that never gets tapped into unless you really crank the volume knob?

Yes, this is true but the THD is much lower on the speakers an or subs that don't have to work hard. This is why I test my THD in my room for all speakers and I bet some people would be surprised how much THD they actually have and say they love their loud and clean system. Some Distortion can actually sound good and create a fullness to the sound where others just makes things sound awful. The OS from 22hz and up is like having 4 sealed cap drivers so the THD is low. I would not use it for high level 10hz stuff but then again I would never just use a single sealed driver for anything. See, the OS is a sealed chamber horn so it acts like a sealed 18 under the corner of the horn, I really like these designs. The cinema F-20 was designed like this as well but the Cap driver is much better for sealed purposes.
post #87 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Yes, this is true but the THD is much lower on the speakers an or subs that don't have to work hard. This is why I test my THD in my room for all speakers and I bet some people would be surprised how much THD they actually have and say they love their loud and clean system. Some Distortion can actually sound good and create a fullness to the sound where others just makes things sound awful. The OS from 22hz and up is like having 4 sealed cap drivers so the THD is low. I would not use it for high level 10hz stuff but then again I would never just use a single sealed driver for anything. See, the OS is a sealed chamber horn so it acts like a sealed 18 under the corner of the horn, I really like these designs. The cinema F-20 was designed like this as well but the Cap driver is much better for sealed purposes.

+1 on the distortion stuff.

It's not just about having headroom. It's also about being able to play at low distortion levels at your preferred listening levels. I'd much rather have a sub(s) just loaf along, barely working, than to have it run hard. That being said there does come a point to where headroom is wasted. But only ones own listening levels & habits can determine that point.
post #88 of 119
I think the headroom is wasted when you reach a certain THD level and can no longer tell if it is cleaner. For an example, you play at 120 dBs at 20hz. Well you have one sub and it compresses and distorts trying to do so. You add a second sub and it now plys a little better. You measure the sub and it goes from 20%THD to 15%thd, great! Add a couple more and it gets to 10% thd and now sound awesome. Add four more and it drops to 5%thd and it sounds the same but now you can watch at 126 dBs with 10%THD. If you don't want 126 dBs then the 4 subs was all you needed because they are clean and at your level. Of course there are those you want the low stuff so it requires more drivers and power to be even 10% THD at certain levels. I have measured 4 different setups at 10%THD and reached different levels with all of them. Cinema F-20's reached 110 dBs, CHT 18.2's reached 122 dBs, eD 190v2's reached 123 dBs, eD 13av2 reached 127.5 dBs. The only system I felt lacking on the low end was the F-20's. The 13av2's needed the least boost down low but the other two had enough headroom and displacement to boost more to be the same.
post #89 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post

I have an honest question for you guys about subwoofers since you understand the science of it much better then I do. All this capability the OS has above 20HZ...isn't it just headroom. In other words, if you are playing reference level for example and the scene has bass which requires 75db at 30hz and all three subwoofers (SVS 13, S2, OS) can play that loud, then the fact the the OS COULD play it much louder does you no good since the scene doesn't call for it? Is it just theoritical headroom that never gets tapped into unless you really crank the volume knob?

Well since we are being honest and with a solid understanding that the question wasn't meant for me, think of it this way. A Yaris will go 90mph (down hill). Would you rather be in a Yaris going 90mph or an M5?

Simply adding Yaris's will not help --- tongue.gif

J/K smile.gif
post #90 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Well since we are being honest and with a solid understanding that the question wasn't meant for me, think of it this way. A Yaris will go 90mph (down hill). Would you rather be in a Yaris going 90mph or an M5?

Simply adding Yaris's will not help --- tongue.gif

J/K smile.gif

My answer = Yaris...take the difference in price and use it to buy a 7.1 Noesis system, buy myself an M3 and pocket the change tongue.gif
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