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Biggest myths in audio that tick you off/General things in audio that tick you off. - Page 20

post #571 of 997
4/17/12 at 5:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by halo71 View Post

The belief that all amplifiers are the same. Given they have the same buttons and switches, features etc. they will all sound the same. No matter what quality of caps, resistors etc are used inside. They will sound the same. Only difference is watts. Yeah, watts...THAT's where it at! lol

Yeah, the above is what makes me laugh at people.

I wish I had your "Golden Ears" to discern a difference between a Yamaha and a Pioneer receiver (no EQ of course) or a Bryston and Emotiva amp...

On another note, a fun thread would be one you link funny audio classified ads. I browse my local classifieds regurlarly and there are some doozies. Ever heard of a surround sound 27" tube tv that you can plug your DVD player, gaming console AND your sat.dish? all this could be yours for $100.
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post #572 of 997
4/17/12 at 5:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

I assume you have evidence (DBT's, measurements, anything) that supports your position, because there is a preponderance of evidence that supports the position that when driven within spec, solid state amps sound the same.

I am not going down DBT lane with you or anyone else. "I" can tell a difference between my old Technics receiver and one of my newer Onkyo receivers. I can tell a difference between my old H&K power amp and my Onkyo Integra M504.

We all hear things differently. To me my Yamaha receiver sounds bright and sterile when compared to my Onkyo receiver. Running the same speakers, source etc.

Some hear a difference in other things in this hobby that I don't. Like cable risers for example.

So why are there capacitors of the same value with different costs? They all should sound the same when being put into SS amps right? Why do some hate the sound of some SS amps while like others? They all should sound the same right?
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post #573 of 997
4/17/12 at 6:05am
^^^

then sadly, you bring nothing to the table...
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post #574 of 997
4/17/12 at 6:07am
^^^

The sadly that is your opinion. If all SS amps sound the same to you then good for you. A used $100 Behringer would go well in any application for you I guess.

At least what I stated, I stated as opinion and not as FACT.
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post #575 of 997
4/17/12 at 6:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by 67jason View Post

I dont have you confused with anyone. Recognize the following quote?



It is from you in a thread on another site started by a member posting something that was said on this site. I never said YOU started the thread, If you read what I wrote, I said you and your buddies on the other site do not have a problem with this practice. Yet YOU do when it happens to YOU specifically. If you truly didn't have a problem with this, where is your posts crying foul on the other site?

Spin it any way you want, doesn't matter to me, I can just see you how you truly are (and yes that is my opinion, factually based on your posts and posting style both here and on other sites I have seen you). Just don't get all butt hurt when someone does the same to you. I know I don't and didn't if you saw my comment on the other thread. All's it did was show me what a waste of my time that other site was.

I apologize to the others in this thread. I will no longer respond to this posters comments and I apologize for my part in going off topic in this thread.



Now back to audiophile nonsensical beliefs.....One of my favs, though not exactly audio related...upgraded power cable gave me better blacks on my plasma. I overheard this in my local used audio gear shop...I about fell on the floor.

I do recognize the quote, but I hardly see where those words are insulting of you or anybody else. If you see see that as being supportive of cross forum disputes... well I can't help you there. Also, to be fair, the op of that thread took the idea from here and made a new post. He did not say "here guys... look what they're up to over at AVS".

I suspect that the last thing you want is another person that follows his ears and has fun within this hobby coming over here and trying to help others do the same. Why is it that the science crowd is so viscerally opposed to people just wanting to have fun with audio, to the point of venomously attacking/hating people they have never met... I don't get that one.

Anyway.. back to audio, and I agree with Halo. Just had this experience this weekend between Parasound A-51 and a Sunfire Signature 425/5, and yes there was a difference.
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post #576 of 997
4/17/12 at 6:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^

then sadly, you bring nothing to the table...

This dismissive attitude of someone else's experience is why we can't have an open discussion. Saul Aulinsky would be proud.
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post #577 of 997
4/17/12 at 6:14am
And yeah, that was me that made that comment on another forum. I did not say where the comment came from nor did I say who made the comment.

I have, what I consider a low end system. Infinity RSIIIa's (recapped XO's/new foam), Onkyo Integra M504 power amp, various low level CD/DVD players, MIT Terminator 6 cables, different preamps I switch in an out. Pre's range from a Sony prepro, Onkyo, Phase Linear etc. Nothing "high" end here. And I can tell a difference between the amps and receivers I have.

I don't care who tells me different. I know what I hear. I have a few reference CD's that I know very well. No DBT's needed. I like what I like. But for someone to tell me I am wrong or I do not hear what I hear. That is crazy....but to each his own I suppose.
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post #578 of 997
4/17/12 at 6:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by halo71 View Post

And yeah, that was me that made that comment on another forum. I did not say where the comment came from nor did I say who made the comment.

I have, what I consider a low end system. Infinity RSIIIa's (recapped XO's/new foam), Onkyo Integra M504 power amp, various low level CD/DVD players, MIT Terminator 6 cables, different preamps I switch in an out. Pre's range from a Sony prepro, Onkyo, Phase Linear etc. Nothing "high" end here. And I can tell a difference between the amps and receivers I have.

I don't care who tells me different. I know what I hear. I have a few reference CD's that I know very well. No DBT's needed. I like what I like. But for someone to tell me I am wrong or I do not hear what I hear. That is crazy....but to each his own I suppose.

You are wrong. Not that you are wrong in that you believe you hear a difference, but that the difference actually exists between amps. Auditory memory has been proven unreliable in numerous tests, so unless you claim to be something other than a member of the human race, your position is not going to be validated here.

If you really are that confident, prove it in a DBT. Should be a piece of cake since the differences are so obvious to you.
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post #579 of 997
4/17/12 at 6:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post

There you go spreading that myth that you know what you are talking about...

Are you saying that you would trust an entry-level to mid grade receiver with a 4 ohm load to the surrounds? Wow....

So just so we can put this out there for public scrutiny:

You are ACTUALLY going to maintain that 4 ohm surrounds can not be driven with a competent receiver?

This is a yes/no type question.
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post #580 of 997
4/17/12 at 6:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

So just so we can put this out there for public scrutiny:

You are ACTUALLY going to maintain that 4 ohm surrounds can not be driven with a competent receiver?

This is a yes/no type question.

I stand by what I said on this...
Quote:
Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post

It is easy, in theory, but in practice it is a different story. I have personally killed a couple AV receivers by presenting a mixed load to them 8ohm across the front, and 4 ohm rear. One was an entry level Denon and the other a mid-level Yamaha. The problem is that 4 ohm loads place a greater demand on the power supply, and with all channels driven, it was just too much to ask.

That said, if an external amp was in play, driving the front's, I can see where that would be within the scope and ability of the receiver, on a mid level model and up. Lower end receivers tend not to have pre-outs to support this, and a lower end receiver will tend to not be robust enough to do it all by itself.
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post #581 of 997
4/17/12 at 6:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

You are wrong. Not that you are wrong in that you believe you hear a difference, but that the difference actually exists between amps. Auditory memory has been proven unreliable in numerous tests, so unless you claim to be something other than a member of the human race, your position is not going to be validated here.

If you really are that confident, prove it in a DBT. Should be a piece of cake since the differences are so obvious to you.

So you are telling me that a cheap bottom of the line Behringer SS amp will sound the same as something by Krell or Conrad Johnson. On the same setup, preamp, source and speakers?

If so I am happy for you....a penny saved is a penny earned right?

So is it logical to assume that a cheap pair of 3 way speakers will sound the same as a $5000 pair of speakers? I mean, they both put out sound. And auditory memory is unreliable.

I am done here. I know what I hear. I know what I like. No DBT is gonna change that. Different equipment sounds different in different rooms. To down someones experience or opinion is human nature.
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post #582 of 997
4/17/12 at 6:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by halo71 View Post

^^^

The sadly that is your opinion. If all SS amps sound the same to you then good for you. A used $100 Behringer would go well in any application for you I guess.

At least what I stated, I stated as opinion and not as FACT.

Here is what I would like for you to be able to show everyone here:

Take that Onkyo amp of yours, Take my Crown XLS 402D. Adjust the attenuation on the Crown until it is at unity gain. Throw a towel over them.

You not only pick out the difference but you have to state the audiophile amp is in or out of loop at each change.

It's the supposition that 'audiophile' amp = better sound. See if you are going to scoff at the idea the something like the 402D DOESN'T have good SQ then the inverse is that something like your Onkyo has BETTER SQ.

So there isn't a single pro-audio amp out there with fidelity?
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post #583 of 997
4/17/12 at 6:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post

I stand by what I said on this...

So we are in agreement. You can drive 4 (surrounds in our current context) ohm speakers on a receiver. And a better scenario is where the front L/C/R are driven by external amplification.

Glad we see things my way
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post #584 of 997
4/17/12 at 6:55am
Jinjuku, like I said. I am done arguing the fact of what I hear in my rig in my house. I am not doubting your Crown may sound the same or better. But to automatically say there is no difference because it says so on paper somewhere is where I take exception. I live in Georgia, shipping wouldn't be bad. Send that Crown down here. I will gladly compare it. Pm sent to you.

Besides, this thread is headed no where but a close. I stated experience and opinion and was told I am wrong. So be it, I am a big boy. I'll still be enjoying tunes this afternoon. I am not trying to convince you of my experience, just stating it.
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post #585 of 997
4/17/12 at 6:56am
I must go do more reading I guess. Didn't know amps were emitting "sound". Always though it was through speakers. Wasn't aware there was 101 ways to "amplify".

that's probably why one need $1000 cables, to make sure there is no degradation of the signal through the wires out to the speakers.

So in closing on this subject for me, some are saying that amps, with no DSP or any filters applied whatsoever will actually change the sound characteristics of the source?

Any who, back to audio myths...
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post #586 of 997
4/17/12 at 6:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by halo71 View Post

So you are telling me that a cheap bottom of the line Behringer SS amp will sound the same as something by Krell or Conrad Johnson. On the same setup, preamp, source and speakers?

If so I am happy for you....a penny saved is a penny earned right?

So is it logical to assume that a cheap pair of 3 way speakers will sound the same as a $5000 pair of speakers? I mean, they both put out sound. And auditory memory is unreliable.

I am done here. I know what I hear. I know what I like. No DBT is gonna change that. Different equipment sounds different in different rooms. To down someones experience or opinion is human nature.

Yes, I'm saying that run within spec, all (non deficient) solid state amps sound the same. Existing research validates that position, unless you have something other than your opinion to offer up not presented to date.

That you tried to extend this discussion into speakers is nothing but a straw man. Of course speakers sound different - should I explain the differences between the purpose of an amplifier and that of speakers?

Science has proven a lot of opinion wrong. Many people used to be convinced the world was flat - apparently, some still do.
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post #587 of 997
4/17/12 at 7:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post

Are you saying that you would trust an entry-level to mid grade receiver with a 4 ohm load to the surrounds? Wow....

Why not? All it takes is a deeper understanding of what's going on than you've thus far exhibited.

First, with the exception of a few full-range planers, there's no such thing as a "4Ω load" in real speakers. Rather, there will be a few dips, and a few peaks. So driving the a nominally 4Ω loudspeaker is really quite far removed from driving a 4Ω resistive load.

Second, surrounds aren't generally stressed very much. They're often closer to the listening position than mains. And they don't play sustained loud passages as often. So even lower impedances is unlikely to stress most gear, because it won't reach the gear's current-output limits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post

The car hobby is much like the audio one, in that there is a flavor out there for everyone, and everybody has a differnt path to follow to achieve their personal definition of perfection.

That depends entirely on how one defines "flavor." If, as in your car examples, you're using actual differences such as looks, brand, heritage, etc., then you're absolutely right.

However, if you're defining "flavor" in sonic terms, then that is something that must be proven. And when serious attempts have been made to prove it, they've all come up with the "flavor" equivalent of distilled water. Unless, of course, one of the pieces of gear was broken or incompetently designed in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by halo71 View Post

I am not going down DBT lane with you or anyone else. "I" can tell a difference between my old Technics receiver and one of my newer Onkyo receivers. I can tell a difference between my old H&K power amp and my Onkyo Integra M504.

You're not telling anyone anything interesting. I can hear a difference between my desktop system now....and now.

The difference? I changed the volume control a tiny bit.

What you're describing is more likely than not just mismatched levels along with a dollop of expectation bias.

Quote:
Originally Posted by halo71 View Post

So why are there capacitors of the same value with different costs?

Durability, for one thing. A cheaper electrolytic won't last as long as a more expensive poly.

But the boutique branded caps exist mostly because a critical mass of audio consumers are more deaf than smart.
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post #588 of 997
4/17/12 at 7:04am
bfreedma, like I said. I am done here. I am glad you are happy with whatever amplifier you have.
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post #589 of 997
4/17/12 at 7:05am
My favorite audio myths are that a.) human perception is infallible and b.) one--anyone--can make a completely unbiased observation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post

Why is it that the science crowd is so viscerally opposed to people just wanting to have fun with audio, to the point of venomously attacking/hating people they have never met... I don't get that one.

That's some disingenuous reasoning there. You know (or should know) the pro-science people are no different than anyone else, that they want to have fun with audio. What gets them on their hind legs is when people assert performance that can't be demonstrated independent of well understood shortcomings inherent in human perception (i.e. bias). To say you prefer Maserati is an opinion. To say a Maserati is better than Ferrari (for example) is asserting an effect that should be measurable (objective) and independent of personal (subjective) interpretation.

Another example:
Quote:
Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post

Anyway.. back to audio, and I agree with Halo. Just had this experience this weekend between Parasound A-51 and a Sunfire Signature 425/5, and yes there was a difference.

Did you observe the performance of both in identical setups? To be certain the differences you perceived between the two were due only to the amps you would need to control for all other variables. Every other component, wire, power source, etc. would need to be the same. And since human observational powers fade quickly with the passing of time, you would need to be able to switch from one to the other nearly instantaneously. But you know all that so forgive me for being didactic (and I don't mean to single you out nooshinjohn). However, when you contend the science-types are just killjoys you're ignoring the obvious--that in demanding proof of performance they're do a service to the A/V hobby by calling out the predatory peddlers of woo-woo nonsense.

I don't understand why the same methodology that debunks silly things like cable risers is scrutinized when evaluating other performance claims. I also don't understand why the "anti-science" crowd is so dead-set in refusing to acknowledge the shortcomings of human perception. I'm sorry to continue the digression, but given the topic I suppose we all knew the thread would eventually take this route. Whenever the myths of some are the sacred cows of others I suppose it's inevitible.
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post #590 of 997
4/17/12 at 7:23am
The amps were used in the same room on the same speakers..etc. I have a curious point however. If wires make no difference, why would it matter if the same wires were used? In my case they were, but just had to ask... I understand and get the need for there to be some scientific component in this hobby, but once the sound wave leaves the speakers and travels across space to your ear, all bets are off.

Amps of equal spec and CD players of the same spec(I am also vinyl guy)... all things being measured equal in that wave of sound, are greeted by an outer ear that is as unique to each of us as a fingerprint. Thought the system of hearing is the same for each of us, we each are blessed with very different ears to hear things with. This is the variable that science cannot measure. Sure you can try and test perception with various methods, but it has also been shown that such tests tend to place stress on the individual, and may skew results.
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post #591 of 997
4/17/12 at 7:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post

I have a curious point however. If wires make no difference, why would it matter if the same wires were used?

Scientists like it when you leave your controls alone and just measure the variable.

It's an expected and reasonable question to ask if anything else in the chain was touched.
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post #592 of 997
4/17/12 at 7:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post

The amps were used in the same room on the same speakers..etc. I have a curious point however. If wires make no difference, why would it matter if the same wires were used? In my case they were, but just had to ask... I understand and get the need for there to be some scientific component in this hobby, but once the sound wave leaves the speakers and travels across space to your ear, all bets are off.

Amps of equal spec and CD players of the same spec(I am also vinyl guy)... all things being measured equal in that wave of sound, are greeted by an outer ear that is as unique to each of us as a fingerprint. Thought the system of hearing is the same for each of us, we each are blessed with very different ears to hear things with. This is the variable that science cannot measure. Sure you can try and test perception with various methods, but it has also been shown that such tests tend to place stress on the individual, and may skew results.

I don't believe anyone is claiming that two people may hear differently, but how does this relate to the same person/ears, which is the element being discussed here.
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post #593 of 997
4/17/12 at 7:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkish54 View Post

What is your problem with him exactly??

So far, to my knowledge, he hasn't said anything inaccurate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post


you may not like his attitude/lack of tact, but it doesn't make him any less correct

Thx guys
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post #594 of 997
4/17/12 at 7:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by repete66211 View Post

My favorite audio myths are that a.) human perception is infallible and b.) one--anyone--can make a completely unbiased observation.

That's some disingenuous reasoning there. You know (or should know) the pro-science people are no different than anyone else, that they want to have fun with audio. What gets them on their hind legs is when people assert performance that can't be demonstrated independent of well understood shortcomings inherent in human perception (i.e. bias). To say you prefer Maserati is an opinion. To say a Maserati is better than Ferrari (for example) is asserting an effect that should be measurable (objective) and independent of personal (subjective) interpretation.

Another example:

Did you observe the performance of both in identical setups? To be certain the differences you perceived between the two were due only to the amps you would need to control for all other variables. Every other component, wire, power source, etc. would need to be the same. And since human observational powers fade quickly with the passing of time, you would need to be able to switch from one to the other nearly instantaneously. But you know all that so forgive me for being didactic (and I don't mean to single you out nooshinjohn). However, when you contend the science-types are just killjoys you're ignoring the obvious--that in demanding proof of performance they're do a service to the A/V hobby by calling out the predatory peddlers of woo-woo nonsense.

I don't understand why the same methodology that debunks silly things like cable risers is scrutinized when evaluating other performance claims. I also don't understand why the "anti-science" crowd is so dead-set in refusing to acknowledge the shortcomings of human perception. I'm sorry to continue the digression, but given the topic I suppose we all knew the thread would eventually take this route. Whenever the myths of some are the sacred cows of others I suppose it's inevitible.

nice. Even though I don't want to categorize anybody (anti-science, pro-science...etc), if I would, I would put myself in the "common sense" crowd, meaning, I'm in between because I don't have the necessary technical background to dispute the physics of why amps sound different or not.

Common sense tells me they don't so I'll ask the question again " Will amps, with no DSP or any filters applied whatsoever actually change the sound characteristics of the source?"
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post #595 of 997
4/17/12 at 7:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post

The amps were used in the same room on the same speakers..etc. I have a curious point however. If wires make no difference, why would it matter if the same wires were used?

It doesn't, really. Unless a wire known to really be a tone control masquerading as a wire (say, something with a resistor of sufficient value in-line) was substituted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post

Amps of equal spec and CD players of the same spec(I am also vinyl guy)... all things being measured equal in that wave of sound, are greeted by an outer ear that is as unique to each of us as a fingerprint.

Irrelevant. If the emitted wave is the same, it will be perceived as the same as any other identical emitted wave even if one's ear was shaped like a a nightstand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post

Thought the system of hearing is the same for each of us, we each are blessed with very different ears to hear things with. This is the variable that science cannot measure.

Actually, it has and does.

But if someone routinely hears an identical stimulus differently, then the word for that is not your phrase, "very different," but rather "defective." That is to say, something is fundamentally wrong with that person's ear-brain interface. S/he should see a competent, board-certified neurologist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post

but it has also been shown that such tests tend to place stress on the individual, and may skew results.

If someone's too psychologically frail to rely on her/his ears alone to determine sound quality, and requires an assist from the eyes lest s/he take on too much "stress" (waaah! waaaah!) s/he doesn't deserve nice things.
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post #596 of 997
4/17/12 at 7:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jproy13 View Post

Common sense tells me they don't so I'll ask the question again " Will amps, with no DSP or any filters applied whatsoever actually change the sound characteristics of the source?"

Okay, 1 last reply....then I am done.

Most here will say NO to your question. I don't agree myself but that's okay.

I still wonder though, assuming all SS amps DO sound the same. Why do some folks mod SS amps? Why do that if they will STILL sound the same? I guess upgrading to better caps is just to extend amp life. Or bypassing a circuit does nothing.....
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post #597 of 997
4/17/12 at 8:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by halo71 View Post

Okay, 1 last reply....then I am done.

Most here will say NO to your question. I don't agree myself but that's okay.

I still wonder though, assuming all SS amps DO sound the same. Why do some folks mod SS amps? Why do that if they will STILL sound the same? I guess upgrading to better caps is just to extend amp life. Or bypassing a circuit does nothing.....

I can't answer your second question but for the 1rst one,if we're reffering to a company, I'm guessing...to make money . If It's individual, I'm guessing personal beliefs perhaps or the drive to obtain the "best" without leaving any leafs unturn or maybe beliefs coming from a well regarded peer...
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post #598 of 997
4/17/12 at 8:03am
Quote:


I have a curious point however. If wires make no difference, why would it matter if the same wires were used?

When conducting a test all elements other than the test subject should be identical. Doing so removes any question concerning the source of differences should there be any.

Quote:


I understand and get the need for there to be some scientific component in this hobby, but once the sound wave leaves the speakers and travels across space to your ear, all bets are off...all things being measured equal in that wave of sound, are greeted by an outer ear that is as unique to each of us as a fingerprint. Thought the system of hearing is the same for each of us, we each are blessed with very different ears to hear things with. This is the variable that science cannot measure. Sure you can try and test perception with various methods, but it has also been shown that such tests tend to place stress on the individual, and may skew results.

Human perception is the very definition of subjective, so it is indeed a very difficult thing to evaluate. Its limits can be measured quite easily, but the personal impression of experiencing something like sound is not easy to quantify/qualify. No one can tell you what you did or didn't hear, but you must acknowledge the limitations of what you are able to observe, that personal bias may play a role in how your brain subjectively interprets objective information and that if the same song is played on the same equipment in the same room any perceived difference has nothing to do with the equipment playing the song.
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post #599 of 997
4/17/12 at 8:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by halo71 View Post

Okay, 1 last reply....then I am done.

Most here will say NO to your question. I don't agree myself but that's okay.

I still wonder though, assuming all SS amps DO sound the same. Why do some folks mod SS amps? Why do that if they will STILL sound the same? I guess upgrading to better caps is just to extend amp life. Or bypassing a circuit does nothing.....

People usually mod amps because they buy into unvalidated marketing from the modifier, i.e. "Snake Oil".

The mods may alter the sound (or not), but the alterations move away from the "straight wire" aspects of the amp and color the signal. That said, the tests done on modded equipment recently (TUC) show no conclusive evidence of any sonic changes when exposed to a DBT. This is the reason that most Modifiers are vehemently opposed to publishing specs, measurements, or engaging in DBT's. They simply can't sustain their claims under any level of scrutiny.
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post #600 of 997
4/17/12 at 8:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by halo71 View Post

Jinjuku, like I said. I am done arguing the fact of what I hear in my rig in my house. I am not doubting your Crown may sound the same or better. But to automatically say there is no difference because it says so on paper somewhere is where I take exception.

Where did I say there would/wouldn't be a difference? I'm not debating that. I am debating the general debasement of pro-audio, studio/PA or otherwise, sound quality.
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