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Biggest myths in audio that tick you off/General things in audio that tick you off. - Page 23

post #661 of 998
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkhorror View Post

A power cord makes a difference, seems people forget about the wire in the wall.

I always liked that one. The 3 foot cord can fix the problems caused by the several thousand feet of transmission wire.
post #662 of 998
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkhorror View Post

A power cord makes a difference, seems people forget about the wire in the wall.

And for the amps all sounding the same, my guess is that would be true given both amps actually being able to power the full range of the speaker to equal levels. But I have tried out different receivers and amps on full range speakers, and you need a lot of power to get the full range on those speakers. The obvious part was the bass, on the budget receivers sounded like small bookshelf speakers. Mid/Higher end receivers would sound alright with an alright amount of bass, but still felt like it needed a sub. Once went to a good power amp I had to check to see if the sub was still attached because it sure sounded like it.

Even with budget receivers that were tested to have good power it had basically no bass.

receivers don't have "bass"... sorry... try harder...
post #663 of 998
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

I always liked that one. The 3 foot cord can fix the problems caused by the several thousand feet of transmission wire.

OK, first of all...I am late to this obvious flame-fest; which is why I avoided the topic to begin with. Second...by saying what I am about to, is in NO way meant to say I endorse or support the idea behind expensive power-cords, etc.

But I never understood this argument against; this whole "like the final 3 feet can fix problems caused by several thousand feet of wire". Umm...don't you understand the idea of transformation? There are so many products, that I can't even begin to list them all...that take one thing and turn it into another. Uh...DACs take 0s and 1s, and turn them into music; as if.

Plus, I'm no EE...but don't they make line conditioners, that are specifically built...and virtually serve no other purpose but to clean up "line-noise"? Take your $1,000 audio products out of the equation; I'm in IT...and we use them for computer equipment, yes?

So again; I'm not a true believer in expensive PCs. My approach: I say what's free in the box can't be worth much...so I'm OK spending $100 for something like a Venom3...just so I can listen to my system, and not wonder "would a different power-cord matter"...lol. But my point is...whether you believe or not aside; is it inconceivable that you could take something that travels thousands of feet in one form...and then can be transformed, and/or "corrected" in the last few feet...before it actually gets to your gear?

CD
post #664 of 998
^^^

c'mon... there's nothing in the power cable TO "transform" anything... so yes, it's completely inconceivable to believe what you are proposing...

geez... the leaps of logic being made around here these days are astouding... because a dac transforms a digital signal to an analog signal, you therefore draw the conclusion that a power cord (an entirely passive device) can transform stuff as well?

how do you stop yourself from wondering "gee, how much better would the $1000 cable be than the $100 cable"? where does the "wondering" stop?
post #665 of 998
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

Actually, even if the effects are psychosematic, if the owner is happier due to the purchase of whatever, that is what matters to the owner. If buying cable lifters to "lift up the highs" or some such tripe makes the owner happier and he swears his experience is improved and life is better because of it, then it is money well spent.

If something makes you happy, why would you seek out ways to make yourself unhappy? Being happy is good, and purposefully attempting to make yourself unhappy is bad - and probably a psychosis of some form.

If Item A sounds better to a person than Item B (meaning A makes that person happier), that person should buy Item A. It would be silly to purposefully buy the item which does not make the person happier. Telling the person "you should not buy the item which makes you happier because this graph says it should not make you happier - therefor you are actually not happier" is also quite silly.

Just buy what makes you happy. Let others be unhappy with your choice if they like, it is not their choice to make - but they can certainly be unhappy as much as they desire.

You're either specious or confused. Whether a guy is happy after being conned or misled is an interesting issue ethically speaking--as is your tacit approval of those who con and mislead--but it's immaterial to what I and others have been saying in this thread. The discussion is addressing product performance, not customer satisfaction.
post #666 of 998
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^

c'mon... there's nothing in the power cable TO "transform" anything... so yes, it's completely inconceivable to believe what you are proposing...

geez... the leaps of logic being made around here these days are astouding... because a dac transforms a digital signal to an analog signal, you therefore draw the conclusion that a power cord (an entirely passive device) can transform stuff as well?

Not saying a PC is like a DAC; but I do think the idea of transformation is being thrown out the window.

Line-conditioners don't clean up grunge in the line? Wow...the Fortune 500 company I work for, sure is throwing money out the window. They're passive. Again; don't turn this into my being a PC believer. But most reasonable claims are not about magic; more about better shiedling from RMI, "better", or heavier-gauge copper...tighter connector, etc.

NONE of this helps one bit? Is inconceivable? Huh.

CD
post #667 of 998
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

geez... the leaps of logic being made around here these days are astouding... because a dac transforms a digital signal to an analog signal, you therefore draw the conclusion that a power cord (an entirely passive device) can transform stuff as well?

how do you stop yourself from wondering "gee, how much better would the $1000 cable be than the $100 cable"? where does the "wondering" stop?

For me...that's what my peace of mind is worth. I'm allowed to satisfy that; if you don't need to, that's fine for you.

See, what I hear...again, most reasonable hobbyists saying...is "I'm not sure. I don't know the science...and I'm not sure the people who claim to don't have an axe to grind". Is it plausible to me? Yes, for the reason's I've stated. Am I willing to spend $1k on something I'm not quite sure works or not? No. $100 (and again, my number is arbitrary, and wholly unique to me...also, it just so happens to be what the Venom3, which gets universally good reviews and customer praise, costs. So again...I figure what the heck). Yes.

I'd sure love to know the credentials of those of you who seem to have all the answers figured out. Must make life much easier. (actually...that is entirely rhetorical).

CD
post #668 of 998
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

I am late to this obvious flame-fest

Contesting unsubstatiated claims isn't flaming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

...so I'm OK spending $100 for something like a Venom3...just so I can listen to my system, and not wonder "would a different power-cord matter"

That's what I call the "peace of mind" tax. It's an angle frequently used by those selling an accessory or peripheral device that may not be necessary or by those who have purchased such items (including yours truly). That Venom is much prettier than any of my power cables, so if nothing else it's nice to look at.
post #669 of 998
Quote:
Originally Posted by repete66211 View Post

Contesting unsubstatiated claims isn't flaming.

That's what I call the "peace of mind" tax. It's an angle frequently used by those selling an accessory or peripheral device that may not be necessary or by those who have purchased such items (including yours truly). That Venom is much prettier than any of my power cables, so if nothing else it's nice to look at.

Agreed; and I don't claim anything more than I hope it sounds better than the freebie in the box...and I know it gives me some level of "comfort"...and that's worth $100.

CD
post #670 of 998
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

Agreed; and I don't claim anything more than I hope it sounds better than the freebie in the box...and I know it gives me some level of "comfort"...and that's worth $100.

CD

Then it sounds like your money was well spent. Unfortunately others insist an inert cable improves audio and video quality in an immeasurable way.
post #671 of 998
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

Not saying a PC is like a DAC; but I do think the idea of transformation is being thrown out the window.

Line-conditioners don't clean up grunge in the line? Wow...the Fortune 500 company I work for, sure is throwing money out the window. They're passive. Again; don't turn this into my being a PC believer. But most reasonable claims are not about magic; more about better shiedling from RMI, "better", or heavier-gauge copper...tighter connector, etc.

NONE of this helps one bit? Is inconceivable? Huh.

CD

Of course it doesn't help, you are saying you are going to take a couple hundred feet of generic power cord. The after that add a another foot of $100 power cord that is only higher gauge and shielded better than the past couple hundred feet. That it is somehow going to do something noticeable.

There are sooo many things that $100 could be spent on that give a noticeable improvement.
post #672 of 998
Quote:
Originally Posted by repete66211 View Post

You're either specious or confused. Whether a guy is happy after being conned or misled is an interesting issue ethically speaking--as is your tacit approval of those who con and mislead--but it's immaterial to what I and others have been saying in this thread. The discussion is addressing product performance, not customer satisfaction.

The two are irrevocably linked. If people are not satisfied, the product fails.

The end user being happy with their purchase is the most important thing to the end user - which means it must be the most important thing to any company which wants to stay in business.
post #673 of 998
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

Not saying a PC is like a DAC; but I do think the idea of transformation is being thrown out the window.

Line-conditioners don't clean up grunge in the line? Wow...the Fortune 500 company I work for, sure is throwing money out the window. They're passive. Again; don't turn this into my being a PC believer. But most reasonable claims are not about magic; more about better shiedling from RMI, "better", or heavier-gauge copper...tighter connector, etc.

NONE of this helps one bit? Is inconceivable? Huh.

CD

We were talking about power cables, not conditioning units. The black three prong connector which plugs into the wall outlet then into the back of the AVR. Just that little run of copper.

Conditioners are a different beast altogether, their importance varies a lot depending on where you live and what you use the conditioned power for.
post #674 of 998
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

The two are irrevocably linked. If people are not satisfied, the product fails.

The end user being happy with their purchase is the most important thing to the end user - which means it must be the most important thing to any company which wants to stay in business.

You're confused again, in this case you seem to have trouble with the difference between a product's performance and its commercial success. Whether or not the product operates as intended has nothing to do with customer satisfaction.
post #675 of 998
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

We were talking about power cables, not conditioning units. The black three prong connector which plugs into the wall outlet then into the back of the AVR. Just that little run of copper.

Conditioners are a different beast altogether, their importance varies a lot depending on where you live and what you use the conditioned power for.

That's fine; but then "3-feet" of something, can correct thousands of feet of something? Here's my argument...which really isn't an argument; it's a supposition.

If the power coming into a house is not so great...because the truth is, how good does it need to be to power refrigerators, and stoves, and blenders and such; any 120v...no matter how much noise and "grunge" on the line...will do. But suppose...just suppose...that things like audio gear, and TVs; were effected by that noise and "grunge"? Not that they were un-watchable, or un-listenable; just that there were, albeit it slight, visible and audible degradation? Is it not plausible that something could clean that line up...and improve picture and sound?

You admit line-conditioners do it? OK, fair enough; a power-cord isn't a line-conditioner (although I'm not entirely sure some of the same principles couldn't be used...re: shielding, etc). So say a power-cord can't do it, if you believe that. My OP was about the generic argument "3 feet of something can't correct thousands of feet of problem". Sure it can.

CD
post #676 of 998
^^^

how?
post #677 of 998
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^

how?

What about a water filter?

CD
post #678 of 998
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

That's fine; but then "3-feet" of something, can correct thousands of feet of something? Here's my argument...which really isn't an argument; it's a supposition.

If the power coming into a house is not so great...because the truth is, how good does it need to be to power refrigerators, and stoves, and blenders and such; any 120v...no matter how much noise and "grunge" on the line...will do. But suppose...just suppose...that things like audio gear, and TVs; were effected by that noise and "grunge"? Not that they were un-watchable, or un-listenable; just that there were, albeit it slight, visible and audible degradation? Is it not plausible that something could clean that line up...and improve picture and sound?

You admit line-conditioners do it? OK, fair enough; a power-cord isn't a line-conditioner (although I'm not entirely sure some of the same principles couldn't be used...re: shielding, etc). So say a power-cord can't do it, if you believe that. My OP was about the generic argument "3 feet of something can't correct thousands of feet of problem". Sure it can.

CD

Shielding is great, if you wish to prevent a clean signal from being contaminated. It's not going to help much if you've got AC power bouncing around from 100 to 140 volts and from 45 to 70 Hz on a continuing basis. Active devices like a line conditioner or in-line UPS can 'normalize' the AC signal into a nice clean sine wave. A simple power cord, no matter how exotic the materials and construction, will not have that capability. This is particularly so when four inches from the plug end is a piece of unshielded Romex running 35 feet to an unshielded circuit breaker box.
post #679 of 998
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

But suppose...just suppose...that things like audio gear, and TVs; were effected by that noise and "grunge"? Not that they were un-watchable, or un-listenable; just that there were, albeit it slight, visible and audible degradation? Is it not plausible that something could clean that line up...and improve picture and sound?

That's a reasonable hypothesis. What does the evidence indicate?
post #680 of 998
Quote:
Originally Posted by repete66211 View Post

That's a reasonable hypothesis. What does the evidence indicate?

IDK...you tell me. I've yet to see anyone offer "evidence"; just their opinion, like mine...only maybe with scientific jargon mixed in.

I'm giving the layman's view; the hobbyists...or at least some (I don't purport to speak for everyone). And I say so, with the admission I don't know for certain. But at least I can say "hey, I'm not sure...so it's worth $100 for peace of mind". Whereas others say "I know...I know best...you're wrong; you're stupid"...lol.

CD
post #681 of 998
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

That's fine; but then "3-feet" of something, can correct thousands of feet of something? Here's my argument...which really isn't an argument; it's a supposition.

If the power coming into a house is not so great...because the truth is, how good does it need to be to power refrigerators, and stoves, and blenders and such; any 120v...no matter how much noise and "grunge" on the line...will do. But suppose...just suppose...that things like audio gear, and TVs; were effected by that noise and "grunge"? Not that they were un-watchable, or un-listenable; just that there were, albeit it slight, visible and audible degradation? Is it not plausible that something could clean that line up...and improve picture and sound?

You admit line-conditioners do it? OK, fair enough; a power-cord isn't a line-conditioner (although I'm not entirely sure some of the same principles couldn't be used...re: shielding, etc). So say a power-cord can't do it, if you believe that. My OP was about the generic argument "3 feet of something can't correct thousands of feet of problem". Sure it can.

CD

What does that have to do with a power cord? Of course things can get rid of problems with power or change the signal. But this wasn't what we were talking about we were talking about a power cord.


from what he said in that post
Quote:


I always liked that one. The 3 foot cord can fix the problems caused by the several thousand feet of transmission wire.

He is talking about a power cord.

Where as you were talking about the power cord having an effect or at least you didn't mind spending the money incase it did. Where we are telling you it doesn't.
post #682 of 998
Quote:
Originally Posted by JD in NJ View Post

Shielding is great, if you wish to prevent a clean signal from being contaminated. It's not going to help much if you've got AC power bouncing around from 100 to 140 volts and from 45 to 70 Hz on a continuing basis. Active devices like a line conditioner or in-line UPS can 'normalize' the AC signal into a nice clean sine wave. A simple power cord, no matter how exotic the materials and construction, will not have that capability. This is particularly so when four inches from the plug end is a piece of unshielded Romex running 35 feet to an unshielded circuit breaker box.

Good point. So what you're really saying is not that it can't be done with a power-cord; just power-cords, as they currently exist? What if they had an "active" element...like what Audioquest does with those batteries (not saying that does anything...just that it appears to be an active element, rather than just passive)?

What does a line-filter or conditioner do exactly? (speaking of "evidence")...and why couldn't at least some of that be incorporated into a cord? I'm really asking.

CD
post #683 of 998
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

IDK...you tell me. I've yet to see anyone offer "evidence"; just their opinion, like mine...only maybe with scientific jargon mixed in.

I'm giving the layman's view; the hobbyists...or at least some (I don't purport to speak for everyone). And I say so, with the admission I don't know for certain. But at least I can say "hey, I'm not sure...so it's worth $100 for peace of mind". Whereas others say "I know...I know best...you're wrong; you're stupid"...lol.

CD

So my question to you if you could get it plugged in directly to the outlet with out any power cord just prongs from a receiver directly into the outlet. Would you think that would be better than an expensive power cord?
post #684 of 998
Quote:
Originally Posted by JD in NJ View Post

Shielding is great, if you wish to prevent a clean signal from being contaminated. It's not going to help much if you've got AC power bouncing around from 100 to 140 volts and from 45 to 70 Hz on a continuing basis. Active devices like a line conditioner or in-line UPS can 'normalize' the AC signal into a nice clean sine wave. A simple power cord, no matter how exotic the materials and construction, will not have that capability. This is particularly so when four inches from the plug end is a piece of unshielded Romex running 35 feet to an unshielded circuit breaker box.

This
post #685 of 998
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

What about a water filter?

CD

operative word... "filter"....

not analogous to a power cord...
post #686 of 998
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkhorror View Post

So my question to you if you could get it plugged in directly to the outlet with out any power cord just prongs from a receiver directly into the outlet. Would you think that would be better than an expensive power cord?

No; and I don't see your point. These short, choppy sentences don't appear to be going much of anywhere.

Besides...you guys are going to have to hurry and convince me...lol. I don't participate in these debates anymore; they go no where, and then just turn personal, and nasty and get people in trouble with the mods.

CD
post #687 of 998
Everything starts on a theoretical level--explaining why something might behave in a certain way. But you'd be foolish to leave it at that. Before a principle can be deemed to have any effect that effect must be demonstrated in a practical application. I have seen no evidence indicating power cords offer an improvement in a/v quality in any way. All you see is personal testimony from people whos points of comparison are unblinded and therefore biased. As with HDMI and speaker cables, all tests have indicated that once the basic performance threshhold is satisfied there is no benefit in using high end cables. This is why Monoprice has done so well among the savvy, value-minded consumers in the a/v hobby--because people are wise to the Monster Cable marketing nonsense.

In your water filter example, a line conditioner would be a filter while your power cable is just a hose.
post #688 of 998
Other myths that most people base their decision on.

Wattage rating on the speakers has to match the receiver.

This receiver is really powerful it says it's 100x7.

These speakers are really loud because they are 500 watt speakers.

there is a big difference between 150 watts and 130 watts.

Bose is the best.

Expensive digital interconnects, or really just about any expensive interconnects make a noticeable difference.

I only have to turn it up half way and it's really loud where my old system I had to turn it up much higher to get the same volume. This new one is so much better.
post #689 of 998
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

operative word... "filter"....

not analogous to a power cord...

I see; I'm not sure I agree, but I don't disagree...and have said so. Again...it might be semantics, but words make the world go round.

All I ever really railed against, was of course a short measure of something could change thousands of feet of something; if it somehow effected it for the better at the end. So I think that argument...in its literal sense, is false. If the real point you guys are making is...PCs don't do anything, OK; point taken.

I think they might "filter", or "shield" in a way that makes slight, perceivable differences...and I pay a small amount to sate that belief. Case closed; fun to have participated. Carry on.

CD
post #690 of 998
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

What about a water filter?

CD

A $1000 3ft power cord is akin to the last 3 ft of pipe leading up to the cold water handle on a faucet being silver.

AC Regenerators/Line conditioners are like a filter in the water line before the cold water handle.
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