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Biggest myths in audio that tick you off/General things in audio that tick you off. - Page 26

post #751 of 997
Quote:
Originally Posted by rock_bottom View Post

There's some interesting stuff about speaker break-in at the Matrix Hi-Fi site. They asked a bunch of manufacturers about it, and got some interesting responses. I like the one from the Scanspeak lead R&D engineer best.


Quote:
AUDIOTECHNOLOGY

“Thanks for your mail.
Your question is a good question and I will try to answer it as well as possible.
There is great difference between the different drivers, when it comes to “running in”
A woofer can be run in relatively quickly, but in hours? – I am not sure. Our woofers, with a relatively high compliance, can be run in, in a day or so, where the more stiff drivers, like PA drivers takes a week or more.
When it comes to midranges, it is another story. The sound of a midrange can change up to month after it has been played for the first time. I personally, have recently become the lucky owner of a pair of Peak Consult “El Diablo” – a true work of art – but that is another story. When they were first connected, the sound was impressive but not great, but after a couple of days, the bass was wonderful. I played them 24/7 to break them in as fast as possible. Now, after 2 month, the midrange is also great. It has been changing every day, since the first. The tweeter is still changing – bringing less “S” sounds to the female voices and adding to the image day by day. Today my listening room tends to be much bigger than it really is, and is still getting bigger (hope the walls wound fall down on me).
As you can understand, it is individual how long time it takes to burn in a speaker, but in general you can say that the bigger the driver, the faster it will be run in or you could express it in another way also: The more the cone moves, the faster the driver is run in.

Hope this answer is adequate for you. Otherwise, please write again.”



So we did:

“Thanks for a very clarifying reply, however, it raises up another question:

If a driver sounds better after burn in, why is it that (apparently) no manufacturer sells its units already burnt in?
Also, is there a certain music program preferred or to avoid when burning in a driver?”



And the anwer to our second mail was:

“Thanks for your mail.
Yes, you are right – we ought to burn in all the drivers, but – we do not have the time or the facilities to do it.
It is the same with a car………. It also runs better and has better fuel economy after some thousand miles, but can you imagine the Toyota factories driving some thousand miles before delivering each car?
There is no preferred music, when burning in speakers. I personally use pink noise, when I am not at home. Else any music that makes the drivers move as much as possible.”

bwah..hah..hah....I call bluff on this one.

None of my cars in the last 20 years that I remember had increased mileage after "breaking-in" a few thousand miles. My mileage has remained constant (for the design life of 100K) for each of my cars and the only time a difference was noted when going out on extended trip where the whole tank was consumed on the highway.
post #752 of 997
Every audio forum needs an "automotive analogies" subforum where all such posts should be moved .
post #753 of 997
^^^
I agree. It gets old, but for me it might have to do with the fact that I've been spending 45-50 hours a week working on cars for the past 20 years.
post #754 of 997
Break-in is a self-serving myth perpetuated by manufacturers...

They allow this myth to persist because it helps to head off a barage of returns that would inevitably follow after customers plunks down $3000 for a new amp, cd player, cables, etc.. then find that it hasn't "transformed" their system as they expected. Telling the them that it won't sound it's best for a few hundred hours buys the manufacturer a few weeks/months time during which most consumers will have pretty much resigned themselves to owning the new piece, and more than likely, convinced themselves that "yeah, ..I guess it does sound better than the old one." It's such a convenient and obvious hedge

If a few hundred hours of play time REALLY made a componet sound better, then the manufacturer would surely include this during production so as to ensure that their product will comparing favorably in any side-by-side comparisons in showrooms. Of course!

...there is no such thing as burn-in. Ask someone with a Phd. in electrical engineering and who IS NOT associated with a manufacturer.
post #755 of 997
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

I'm into Italian sportscars, I currently own two Alfa Romeo's. The only break in required was exclusive to certain gymnastics performed in full moonlight on the front hood, preferably not alone. I do swear by this method.

lol!

as far as the alfas go... why break in something that is going to break soon anyway...
post #756 of 997
^^
Fiat
post #757 of 997
^^^

yea, the "fix it again tony" phrase definitely came to mind...
post #758 of 997
Quote:
Originally Posted by syd123 View Post

Break-in is a self-serving myth perpetuated by manufacturers...

They allow this myth to persist because it helps to head off a barage of returns that would inevitably follow after customers plunks down $3000 for a new amp, cd player, cables, etc.. then find that it hasn't "transformed" their system as they expected. Telling the them that it won't sound it's best for a few hundred hours buys the manufacturer a few weeks/months time during which most consumers will have pretty much resigned themselves to owning the new piece, and more than likely, convinced themselves that "yeah, ..I guess it does sound better than the old one." It's such a convenient and obvious hedge

If a few hundred hours of play time REALLY made a componet sound better, then the manufacturer would surely include this during production so as to ensure that their product will comparing favorably in any side-by-side comparisons in showrooms. Of course!

...there is no such thing as burn-in. Ask someone with a Phd. in electrical engineering and who IS NOT associated with a manufacturer.

Of course there is no such thing as burn in. What I experienced was break-in or settling in of the suspension components. That is not a myth, and it even applies to automobiles, ancient or modern. In order for the low frequency to play better, the speaker needs a compliant suspension and that is the only difference I have seen.
post #759 of 997
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post


lol!

as far as the alfas go... why break in something that is going to break soon anyway...

One Spider I've had since 1994, it's been the least expensive car I've ever owned, seriously. The '67 requires a bit more TLC but it's driven less than 1k miles a year.

If only I didn't have to replace hoods so often.
post #760 of 997
^ now that is NOT a myth
post #761 of 997
Quote:
Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

Of course there is no such thing as burn in. What I experienced was break-in or settling in of the suspension components. That is not a myth, and it even applies to automobiles, ancient or modern. In order for the low frequency to play better, the speaker needs a compliant suspension and that is the only difference I have seen.

Sorry, but I believe speaker break-in to also be a myth.. To wit:

My last three speaker purchases I did the following.
1. unboxed both speakers, plugged one into amp and played it through the night
2. next day hooked up second and placed it right next to first.
3. playing a song in mono I used the balance control to switch the music back and forth b/w the two speakers...

Not I, my wife, nor my kids were able to hear one iota of difference. To my satisfaction, this busts the myth.

FWIW, the speakers were:
Paradigm Signature S8 v2's floor-standers
PSB Alpa AV's
Cambridge Audio S30
post #762 of 997
Quote:
Originally Posted by syd123 View Post

Sorry, but I believe speaker break-in to also be a myth.. To wit:

My last three speaker purchases I did the following.
1. unboxed both speakers, plugged one into amp and played it through the night
2. next day hooked up second and placed it right next to first.
3. playing a song in mono I used the balance control to switch the music back and forth b/w the two speakers...

Not I, my wife, nor my kids were able to hear one iota of difference. To my satisfaction, this busts the myth.

FWIW, the speakers were:
Paradigm Signature S8 v2's floor-standers
PSB Alpa AV's
Cambridge Audio S30

You messed up, there is a 3 year break in period.
post #763 of 997
Quote:
Originally Posted by syd123 View Post

Sorry, but I believe speaker break-in to also be a myth.. To wit:

My last three speaker purchases I did the following.
1. unboxed both speakers, plugged one into amp and played it through the night
2. next day hooked up second and placed it right next to first.
3. playing a song in mono I used the balance control to switch the music back and forth b/w the two speakers...

Not I, my wife, nor my kids were able to hear one iota of difference. To my satisfaction, this busts the myth.

FWIW, the speakers were:
Paradigm Signature S8 v2's floor-standers
PSB Alpa AV's
Cambridge Audio S30

So you are stating that

1. Your speaker suspension does not change over time and use across the frequency range

2. Your car's suspension (shocks, coils, loaded bushings, etc) do not change over time and use over varying road surface.

Good to hear that. I am sure you have the very best money can buy.
post #764 of 997
I'm against most of the woo-woo stuff out there but I experienced a period of speaker break-in once. My Polk PSW110, beastly subwoofer that it is, sounded like it was dead when I first plugged it in. However, within a few minutes it was in full working order, plumbing the 32Hz depths like the world class subwoofer that it is. The change took place in a span of only a few minutes while I was actually touching the sub, so I suspect it was a real event rather than my imagination.
post #765 of 997
Quote:
Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

So you are stating that

1. Your speaker suspension does not change over time and use across the frequency range

2. Your car's suspension (shocks, coils, loaded bushings, etc) do not change over time and use over varying road surface.

Good to hear that. I am sure you have the very best money can buy.

Suspension compliance will change with usage. Anyone that uses their speakers for even a minimal amount of time will, to wit, have 'broken in speakers'. I'm sure as the VC warms up the speakers are well loosened up in the matter of minutes.

Even guys that need to take T/S parm's of a speaker will play a tone through them. Zaph does this over night I do believe.

While the difference is measurable I don't know if it is audible. The notion that speakers and cable need 'burn/break in' is just absurd on all facets. Just by playing them you have indeed 'broken' them in.
post #766 of 997
Quote:


...there is no such thing as burn-in. Ask someone with a Phd. in electrical engineering and who IS NOT associated with a manufacturer.

There is such a thing as burn in with electronics. It's commonly used. It's mainly used for mission critical devices where reliability is extremely important. Things like military and medical applications.

The purpose is to weed out defective components. The idea is components follow a bathtub curve. Most of the failures occur early due to defects and when the components have reached their useful life. In between, components fail at a much lower rate.
post #767 of 997
Quote:
Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

So you are stating that

1. Your speaker suspension does not change over time and use across the frequency range

2. Your car's suspension (shocks, coils, loaded bushings, etc) do not change over time and use over varying road surface.

Good to hear that. I am sure you have the very best money can buy.

why the fixation on car analogies? ..Sorry but just b/c a suspension in a car may break-in (not saying it does, I'm taking your word for it) it does not necessarily mean the surrounds in a speaker do. ..What about mechanical watches? ..Do they break in? ..I can't recall someone buying an expensive watch and being fine with it being slow b/c they expect it to break-in over time and eventually become more accurate. ..Geez, now you have me making meaningless analogies
post #768 of 997
I guess once upon a time I did believe in your theory Syd. I never warmed up before a game because I believed in preserving my energy for running on the field, and not around it on a track before the game Seriously.

So I guess we have a bunch of foolish athletes who "warm-up/stay-fit/get-in-form". They should get to the field right out of bed one fine day and make it to the hall of fame.
post #769 of 997
Quote:
Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

I guess once upon a time I did believe in your theory Syd. I never warmed up before a game because I believed in preserving my energy for running on the field, and not around it on a track before the game Seriously.

So I guess we have a bunch of foolish athletes who "warm-up/stay-fit/get-in-form". They should get to the field right out of bed one fine day and make it to the hall of fame.

I'm not the athlete I used to be, but when I was we stretched before a game. I'm told by a soccer playing friend that stretching is advised against these days. Apparently there's some data indicating it may do more harm than good. It's still wise to warm up the muscles and joints with a light workout though.
post #770 of 997
Syd, suspension is suspension. a suspension that has never been worked out such as in a car and in a loudspeaker, will stretch out when you push it's limits and improve the extreme ranges. The middle of the road sound quality will have little to no audible benefits.

In order to play low frequencies, the speaker driver moves significantly and that is where my focus is. It is possible for NIB speakers to be a bit stiff like you getting out of bed in the morning. Walking is not an issue, but sprinting to beat the world record is.
post #771 of 997
Quote:
Originally Posted by syd123 View Post

why the fixation on car analogies?

The other fixation I have may very well get me banned from this forum. So it is in my best interests that I stick to car analogies
post #772 of 997
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chikoo View Post


The other fixation I have may very well get me banned from this forum. So it is in my best interests that I stick to car analogies

Bahahahah now that's funny!!
post #773 of 997
I am not sure what I think about both speaker and electronic break-in. I have had some strange experiences. Such as electronics sounding much better after a long time. Like having two receivers, the new one sounding harsh, fatiguing with highs sounding much louder than the rest. Then after a few years trying it compared to the old receiver again and then there being almost no difference between the two.

I am not sure if I remembered them wrong or what happened. But it seems very strange.
post #774 of 997
Quote:
Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

So I guess we have a bunch of foolish athletes who "warm-up/stay-fit/get-in-form". They should get to the field right out of bed one fine day and make it to the hall of fame.

Not exactly what you are referring to, but they now say that stretching does not prevent injuries in athletes.
http://www.webmd.com/fitness-exercis...-on-old-debate

OK...back on topic.

As Jinjuku stated, driver break-in is measurable, but audibility is questionable.
post #775 of 997
Quote:
Originally Posted by repete66211 View Post

I'm not the athlete I used to be, but when I was we stretched before a game. I'm told by a soccer playing friend that stretching is advised against these days. Apparently there's some data indicating it may do more harm than good. It's still wise to warm up the muscles and joints with a light workout though.

The current "advice" is to stretch after you're warmed up, during or after your workout/exercise...
post #776 of 997
Thread Starter 
Regardless of the current advice on stretching or not stretching before workout, the human body is just slightly different than a speaker cone/surround. LMAO!
post #777 of 997
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkish54 View Post

Regardless of the current advice on stretching or not stretching before workout, the human body is just slightly different than a speaker cone/surround. LMAO!

This is another myth I would love to see die. The human body is actually exactly like a speaker cone/surround.

:reallyangryface:
post #778 of 997
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post


this is another myth i would love to see die. The human body is actually exactly like a speaker cone/surround.

:reallyangryface:

lmao! :d
post #779 of 997
Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

There is such a thing as burn in with electronics. It's commonly used. It's mainly used for mission critical devices where reliability is extremely important. Things like military and medical applications.

The purpose is to weed out defective components. The idea is components follow a bathtub curve. Most of the failures occur early due to defects and when the components have reached their useful life. In between, components fail at a much lower rate.

I have seen a lot of stuff on this forum related to electronics that is just made up on the fly, but I think bathtub curve is now my favorite.
I just wish I could figure out what it would look like.
post #780 of 997
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkhorror View Post

I am not sure what I think about both speaker and electronic break-in. I have had some strange experiences. Such as electronics sounding much better after a long time. Like having two receivers, the new one sounding harsh, fatiguing with highs sounding much louder than the rest. Then after a few years trying it compared to the old receiver again and then there being almost no difference between the two.

I am not sure if I remembered them wrong or what happened. But it seems very strange.

new capacitors running full steam making the difference?
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