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goodbye #2  

post #1 of 36
Thread Starter 
I'm leaving AVS too. It has nothing to do with this split, the timing's just right.

I'm a little fed up with the overmoderation going on here. There's really no reason to close or delete all the threads or messages that are getting closed or deleted. If you don't find the discussion interesting, you know to avoid that thread. Big deal.

I know this forum is owned by the AVS folks, and they can legally do whatever they want, but that doesn't mean it's right by the community. They have plenty of opportunity to capitalize on their efforts without having to resort to censoring users and other dealers. Ads, stickies heralding AVS specials, etc., are all legitimate ways of recouping their investments. If we want to discuss affordable ways of acquiring the products we're interested in, let us.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ray
I find it a bit ironic that if it wasnt for the AVS forum none of you would be reaping the benefits of the AE 100 because you would not know about it or have the ability to gain FREE knowledge on its use and set up
I think this is a common, if very misguided, opinion. AVS "created" few HT enthusiasts, they merely provided the most popular place to congregate. When the provider "goes bad", this leads to an unfortunate situation where the momentum keeps it in business, not the virtues of the provider.

What I'm trying to say is that if AVSforum wasn't here, we'd all be at hometheaterforum, or ***************, or some other place that doesn't exist because the market has already been cornered.

Alex
post #2 of 36
Any particular reason for making such an obviously redundant thread?

edit: oops, I didn't notice it was locked./edit

Although I don't agree with it, at least you did provide reasoning, unlike the top poster of the other one.

I believe that this is a "mountain out of a molehill" situation. So far in all this whining no one has come up with a reasonable alternative that I've read.
post #3 of 36
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by JeffDM
Any particular reason for making such an obviously redundant thread?
Because the other one was locked. (surprise!)

Alex
post #4 of 36
Quote:
Originally posted by Alexander
Because the other one was locked. (surprise!)
Well, what does one expect when the thread was nearing an exclusive bitch-out?

I guess this is a no-win situation. I also think that people are reading way too much into Alan's posts concerning the subject, applying possibly imaginary negative conotations to every word he used. It seems he is trying to accomodate people, but no matter what AVS does, someone's toes are going to be stepped on. So far I haven't seen a credible alternative offered since the b!tching started.
post #5 of 36
If you actually read what Alan said, he was getting too many COMPLAINTS from users about dealer spam. There's also the issue of dealers posing/acting like end-users.

Frankly, I think the ideal discussion is end-users with those with financial interest clearly delineated and still kept from actively soliciting. That is exactly what they are trying to enforce and I applaud them for it.
post #6 of 36
JeffDM,
Anyone who is literate can see the words in gold & blue. No need to read anything into what was stated. If you want to be an apple-polisher fine, but there were many valid concerns made and several alternatives offered.
Just because you feel a loyalty to AVS (remember I put my $$$ where my mouth is) don't ignore the obvious.
Regards,
Greg
post #7 of 36
Quote:
I'm a little fed up with the overmoderation going on here.
Actually, the moderation is one of the things I like about this forum. It keeps the nut density down and keeps the discussion slightly on topic.

My guess is that less than 1% of posts require intervention and that 90% of the intervention is because of flaming.
post #8 of 36
Sometimes in my business we make decisions that we know might be unpoplular with certain people. If we have given the matter due consideration, and we think the decision is reasonable, we often conclude that, if people wish to leave based on the decision, that perhaps that is the best thing for the business. Thus, if people wish to leave AVS Forum based on the decision to split the digital theater forums or the rationale for the decision, perhaps that is best for everybody. No offense intended.
post #9 of 36
Alex said
"What I'm trying to say is that if AVSforum wasn't here, we'd all be at hometheaterforum, or ***************, or some other place that doesn't't exist because the market has already been cornered. "

Alex

Hi
Have to disagree with you I have been here since 1998-1999 (under a different user name) There was only one forum that talked projectors
and that was the Hi-Rez forum
The only other popular forums then were
DT and HTF and there was little or no talk of front projection systems
I also believe that AVS spawned many of the forums that you speak of today and I truly Believe that this forum has steered many to the Front Projection scene.I still see nothing in Alans post that I would be offended by Mabie I am just a thick headed dude, I dont know
PEACE :)
Ray
post #10 of 36
Quote:
Originally posted by Gregoire
Anyone who is literate can see the words in gold & blue. No need to read anything into what was stated. If you want to be an apple-polisher fine, but there were many valid concerns made and several alternatives offered.
Just because you feel a loyalty to AVS (remember I put my $$$ where my mouth is) don't ignore the obvious.
Out of curiosity, are you trying to be insulting? I am not insulted, but I don't see how I am being an apple polisher. I don't have any special loyalty to AVS or those that run it. I have been on both sides of the equation in lists and forums in the past, so maybe that insight has biased me somewhat, mostly because of the dynamics of the situations, it really doesn't seem to change regardless of the topic.

I have read a great deal of the posts, I am simply stating how I see things, and that is that so many people are making a mountain out of molehills. If there really WERE viable alternatives produced, I certainly don't remember reading them.

I have seen this sort of thing in many interest fields unrelated to HT, and frankly, I am sick of it, it looks stupid regardless of what the topic is. Too many people taking things personally, too many people abusing the forum, too many harsh or rude messages, posts clearly made in the wrong topic, obviously duplicate threads even in throughrough comparison, then there's the dealer/PM issue. The signal to noise was getting really bad, and I believe that the AE-100 issue was the camel that broke the straw.

I also disagree that the forum is overmoderated. If it wasn't as moderated I think that this forum would be worse. The threads that get locked are those where people get out of hand (read: flames), or deviated way too far from the original post's topic. I do disagree with the thread deleting thing, but then, they aren't out to please me in everything. Nor should they try to please everyone all the time, as that is impossible.

Oh, also, I switched to the black & white color scheme, blue & gold doesn't work well with me, that is the very thing that was making things hard to read.
post #11 of 36
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Ray
I truly Believe that this forum has steered many to the Front Projection scene.I still see nothing in Alans post that I would be offended by
I would say that the decreasing cost and increasing quality, not to mention decreasing size, has been the primary driver behind front projection popularity.

I'm not offended by Alan's post or the split per se, but I do get a little ticked when I see posts like "I just got my projector from **********, and the service was great. [talk about projector, blah blah]". I might know what's under those asterisks, but I think that obscuring the name does a disservice to those who might be in the market for a projector.

I can also see the need to keep dealer spamming down, but if it's in direct reply to a user's query, or if users are just discussing where to buy from, I think it's of interest to everybody.

Alex
post #12 of 36
Just my 2 C's, but you really have to consider the most common use of these forums is for potential consumers getting information. The reason we're using forums instead of manufacturers web sites is that we can get a sense of each product warts and all from people who use them or have the ability to get more 1st hand info than we can.

Personally I would rather wade through nutcase postings than have these forums sanitized and steered by the shifting agendas of the board operators (not to mean secret agendas). The freer people are to express their own beliefs about products they've used or investigated, the easier it is to do meaningful research.

I totally agree with policies that restrict personal attacks, unfair influence by manufacturers, etc. since I think those also defeat the usefulness of opinions expressed.

Oh last thing, I totally agree that any commercial interests should not steer policy in the forums. Banners, announcements, and other forms of online advertising are fine, but once commercial interests influence the content of the board, the board loses credibility and usefulness IMO.
post #13 of 36
How about this idea. Let there be 2 models for AVS

1) A subscription model in which you can determine how much censorship you want

2) A free model where Alan Gouger determines the censorship and trys to sell you his own products.

People would have a choice. Right now AVS is totally free so you cannot complain about Alan trying to squeeze some blood out of the AVS stone. Everyone acts likes we are all 60's hippies. Alan has to make a living too- why should other parasitic dealers ride on his back.

Unfortunately all his work will probably go unrewarded financially by the many individuals here who resent having to pay one thin dime for anything on the net. Alex - you really seem like a bit of a ( censored by me)
post #14 of 36
charlies

You must have esp. We are working on just that.
Its taking a little more time than anticipated. Waiting on the attorneys
regarding legal policy's.

Stay tuned!
post #15 of 36
My guess is that Alan could put a little language into the sign-up that would allow him to go after unscrupulous dealers.

I hate to see it come to this, but what's his alternative?
post #16 of 36
Well, I usually agree with Alan in the changes he has made to this forum, but this time I think it was overkill. I would have first tried requiring threads to be specific as to price range or projector brand, which would make it easier to jump over the budget stuff, if that is not your interest.

As for the business of not letting other suppliers use his board for free advertising and selling, I'm behind Alan all the way. AVS is not a charity or government agency, it's a business.

Dan
post #17 of 36
FORUM (latin, akin to foris, foras, out of doors)

1. A market place or public place in Rome, where causes were judicially tried, and orations delivered to the people.

AVS= the judge
forum members= the people

I have to say I have notices a gradual change of atmosphere in the forum this days. I am not disputing whatsoever the need to keep other vendors out and the need for Alan to protect his sales.
What I disagree is the "business look" that the our pics must have, the wiping out of the avatars, the threads pulled because they were funny... it just seems to me things are not as lighthearted as they used to be...

At the end of the day, I like funny things, and I think that if you learn laughing, you learn quickly and more effectively that if you learn with a "serious" attitude. AVS is a place of learning, and it could be a funny place as well, I don't think the two things are mutually excluding...

No offense Alan, just my honest opinion...
post #18 of 36
Just as example of what Alan faces-

I am organising a fat loss contest at work over the next month- basically you sign up-put $40 into the kitty and then the one who loses the highest % of weight wins. A nice simple premise.

There are 10 competitors and each wants to put in his pennies worth-why don't we have second and third prizes? why dont we extend the contest by 2 months? Can I wear a gstring to be measured in? why dont we....................and so on.

Its my fat loss contest join up or start your own- leave out the 'helpful' suggestions.

Either support Alan or start your own board. Its that simple. I don't like a few aspects of the board but generally I am entertained. Maybe a 'suggestions box would be in order'. In any case stop the offended whining.
post #19 of 36
And by the way Alexander saying the "provider has gone bad" is extremely offensive in my view.It is that type of sly provocative statement slipped into a thread that causes it to be closed. How would you feel if someone said you "had gone bad" as if Alan was some kind of corrupt facist.

After all the enjoyment we get here how nice is that?
post #20 of 36
From Charlies:

"Either support Alan or start your own board. Its that simple. I don't like a few aspects of the board but generally I am entertained. Maybe a 'suggestions box would be in order'. In any case stop the offended whining."

... just as I say that things are not as lighthearted as they used to be.... ;)
post #21 of 36
"My guess is that Alan could put a little language into the sign-up that would allow him to go after unscrupulous dealers. "

Hi...

It is their. Just hard to enforce at times.

Yes...we are working on something that we feel will help out the issues of dealer sales on the site quite a bit. Some will like it, some will not....that is always the case. However...We need to do what we feel is right for the forum we have built over the years. This is just something else we will try...like the DLP split.

All in all this forum is one of the best places for info on HT for Hi-Tec. Alan and I are very, very proud of that.

We usually delete thread like this for they usually go the direction this one has with some slight flamming. But in this case, with the forum split...we have left them. They may be removed later though.

Looking to the future!

(Oh...we have a suggestion box...It is at the bottom of the forum.)
post #22 of 36
I think the "split" could've been done differently but oh well. I ordered an AE100 and really don't care if it is looked at as some cheap pj that doesn't count as a real HT pj. big deal. I could've got a $10,000+ pj but chose not to because I didn't think it would be worth it since even those 10+ K pjs have some of the SAME problems that the <5 K ones do.

If you're happy with your "cheap" pj then why care what others might think of it? I don't get it. It's just a piece of equipment. Get offended at things that actually matter in life.

This board still is far superior to that other big Home Theater Forum. Those guys run that site like communists and forget that it is the users/people who made it popular. I despise that place. I enjoy this place. Way more knowledge is to be had here.
post #23 of 36
I long for the good ole' days when Alan and David didn't have to moderate so much because the small participate base seemed to moderate themselves. The forum almost needs a "bitch and whine" board these days.

SM
post #24 of 36
Swampfox...

Oh yes...the good old days. The days when Alan and I could actually post on the site in regards to HT and not as admins.

It was back then when he and I would be the ones answering questions for the new users to HT. Helping to build HT into the marketplace. Alas...that was when you would have to pay $8000+ for a CRT unit. But the HT market has BOOMED and thus the site has grown and we are the only to that site do all the admin work.

Ah yes...I remember the day when I called Alan and said "WOW!!! We have 100 total visitors today to the site!"

Times have changed...we went from helping to providing. Kind of a good thing though...for their are far more "tech" people on the site that can help better than I at this point in the game. It has all moved so fast with the new gear and I do not have time to keep up personally.

The good old days.
post #25 of 36
Interesting thread.

gnollo - there have been many threads that were left up for significant periods of time that were neither informative nor helpful, just humorous. Sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree. If the admins choose to clear some server space for serious threads after a reasonable period, I fail to see the harm.

Personally, I agree with this split. Perhaps, the title of the upper-crust thread could be ">$5k and HT-specific" or something similar.

I have never tried to "pose as an end-user", though the rules really prohibit some people from saying exactly what their position is. Not a problem, just don't want to be mislabeled.

Some of the dealer/salesfolk who hang out here have had phenomenal info and / or advice; often "inside" info that manufacturer's won't officially release.

Perhaps a sub-category of user would be appropriate. Dealer/salespeople could then be filtered by members if they so wish. I'm not saying that the D/S crowd should be allowed to market, but anyone who is suspicious of their motives could block D/S posts. In return, the D/S folks would have to agree on sign-up to stricter enforcement of the marketing policies. And anyone "posing as an end-user" could be banned, blocked, and sent to Usenet hell for intentional and obvious fraud.
post #26 of 36
I guess I don't care one way or another about the split. I'm addicted to this forum, and will continue to be so until I can get some type of intensive intervention therapy. For all its warts and whiners and flamers and boors, it's still the first site I go to in the morning, or when I want an answer to a question. Just stop and think for a minute how you would feel tomorrow if you clicked on AVSforum, and it wasn't there. I would not be happy.

mike
post #27 of 36
I have been with this forum for some time and have recently switched user names because of a move. I have been fortunate enough to use the information gathered in this forum to build a dedicated theater in my last house, may it rest in peace. The amount of information I got on everything from how to build a riser for my seats to what speaker cable is the best for long runs was invaluable. This was in the "old" days. Today I do not post as much because it is so difficult to gather information. Either your thread gets closed or it gets swept out in the fast moving current before you can get a response. Many people use this forum to gather information about a product they are looking to buy. My suggestion is to start a section that allows individuals to post their own opinions on products they own or have owned in the past. There is a web site called epinions.com that does this for many items. IE consumer reports by the consumer. When you post your opinion on epinions no one can respond, like a closed thread( no flames). The problem with epinions is that 99% of the products are ones that you can buy at most retail stores. AVS would be able to provide a format for our specialized market. This would cut down on the volume of posts and give us a way to research products we are looking to buy. Leave the forum for product tweaks and usage advise.
post #28 of 36
Hello HT enthusiasts,

I admit that I previously posted that I got such and such a projector at such and such a place. I did not know that those types of posts were disallowed. For that I apologise.

I have been reading this forum for about 6 months prior to becoming a member to find out what all this HT stuff was about. I have never been to a forum that has been so helpful in my life. The people I have met and conversed with, and the information I have been able to search out has been invaluable. It seems that even newbies like me don't get flamed for asking even what now appears to be silly questions.

I don't mind that the Digital forum has been split, except that it seems that you now need to go to two places to search (original forum vs new under 5K forum), but I can live with that for all the help I get.

Anyway, I love my new pj, budget as it may be, and I read the forum almost every day. In the future, when I know a lot more, maybe I'll move up to one of the big guns over 5K, but as of now, I'm just happy to have this place to read and post, an a new pj for my family to enjoy.

So this new member's vote is to keep up the good work admins, and don't take too personally the negative views you may read. Just my 2 cents worth !!

I'd also hate to see a split forum ... subscriber vs not, because I don't think it would take any time for the 'not' to become filled with useless dealer spam.

Thanks to all members and posters for all the invaluable insight!!
post #29 of 36
Quote:
Originally posted by David Bott

Times have changed...we went from helping to providing. Kind of a good thing though...for their are far more "tech" people on the site that can help better than I at this point in the game. It has all moved so fast with the new gear and I do not have time to keep up personally.

The good old days.
To paraphrase:
" . . .something's gained, but something's lost . . ."
post #30 of 36
...I only have one thing to say,

I belong over at the CRT forum - and That's where I'll stay from now on!

I drop by the digital forum now and then - to read a bit, maybe learn something, but I think all this nit-picking, and childish remarks are uncalled for. I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that it's mostly coming from the under-thirty crowd - because over at the CRT forum I don't see any of this behavior (there is the occasional flame - but it is rare)

I'll continue to enjoy the AVS forum - but I think I'll stick to the CRT forum where I belong. - low key intelligent conversation and helpful questions and solutions.

....one last word to all the whiners (you know who you are) - Grow-up and enjoy life - it's too short to waste time on such silly pursuits.
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