Thanks Amir (and mark)
appreciate the time you took to explain it, the missing explanations/captions certainly helped.
I've kept out of this after the last one, seems a pathological trait of this forum that everything degenerates.
I understand a lot of where Amir is coming from. Firstly, it is true that normal living rooms can be very satisfying, I am not sure that point of harmons is really in dispute is it?
Equally, that is a far cry from saying that normal rooms with normal furnishings (the wording alone is a hint, very woolly) cannot be improved upon. Else Amir would not have his theatre designed and done professionaly.
I think the following is perhaps the most important point...it IS a very confusing area to delve into, with a lot of contrariness even between advocates.
Still, WE are here because we want to go further and as such I think discussions are important as long as the person can learn from those discussions. No different in 'content/purpose' in learning about different speakers to improve what we have, just a different field.
That is my problem with amirs point, tho I can understand it. Still, as he says, it is a steep learning curve and yes many would roll their eyes before grasping what is needed to make sense of it. But that is no reason to not discuss it for the rest of us.
Another point of amirs is the cost to 'do it at home and find out for yourself'. For a lot of people yes. This is however also a diy forum, and for many that cost does not need to be as horrendous as sometimes represented. Ethan (laudably) has lots and lots of diy info on his website as well as but one example.
I just finished relaying some floors, and as a result now have half a bag of f/glass insulation left over. It is a trivial matter and absurdly cheap to start experimenting with those to begin to put this stuff into context for yourself.
What I do not want to see is any throwing up of hands as it were (which I think is why I am 'against amir' on this) and not find out.
Look, twas relatively recently that things like multiple subs, heck even eq on bass, was looked at in audio. Ten years if that? Don't reckon there was a lot of discussion and how to's (even now tho it is more mature and well known) in that area too? It is more and more accpeted that subs are not the evil the purists thought it was, the techniques needed and knowledge required is getting more and more widely known, and even then there is enough person to person variation on how THEY do it that mimics this treatment discussion.
The point being that to get this wider acceptance and knowledge that topic too had to go thru these forum disputes, it is part and parcel of the growing up of the field if you will, and I see this topic of room treatment going thru the same maturing curve.
The worst thing to do would be to stifle it and follow set formulas.
I will go thru the explanation again amir, buit a few points popped out on first reading.
This graph was generated in an anechoic chamber essentially, I can see that it would be very precise in investigating these threshold levels etc, but even WITH first reflection points etc I find it hatd to beleive that it would mimic a normal listeneing room.
Just by the by, has anyone listened in an anechoic chamber with additional speakers etc, does it (the additional speakers) 'bring it back to real world sound'?? Anyone had a demo like that?
Also, I acknowledge you did not bring the graph up, and it seems harmons tests were different.
I am also sure the green line is the important one in this discussion, it does clearly show that early not very attenuated reflected sounds do affect perception, and using the cheap method I espouse is not hard to test.
My room is not 'normal' (17 foot ceiling for starters), and I used treatment for (what turned out to be a very different reason), slap echo. But the essential point is that it is not hard nor expensive to test this stuff.
I did not find that first reflection points helped (nor did they hinder btw) so I don't have it. Then again my layout kinda does not 'have' first reflection points so moot in my case.
I would not be without the treatment, but horses for courses, so each needs to find out for themselves.