There is a ton of data out there Terry. Please don't judge it by my patience to go and find and quote them
. It is not like Dr. Toole and crew listen to mono all the time
. I quoted a paper that tested listener sensitivity as the number of speakers went from 1 to N. And 1 gave the most discrimination.
I take the point that it is not *your* job to find *my*data, However, you at least seem to know what is there, I don't. So it is easier for someone who knows what they are looking for than someone who does not. But, as I said, point taken.
Listener sensitivity...to WHAT? It cannot be to 'the effects of stereo' when listening to mono can it. For sure, mono is fine for timbre and balance yada yada. Mono is not fine for stereo.
Howabout the test is for Comparison of Loudspeaker-Room
Equalization Preference for Multichannel,
Stereo, and Mono Reproductions
, I don't see any test there for the effects of treatment in stereo.
At least I can run stereo in mono and whilst it might not be exact, I am reasonably certain it is closer to mono than mono is to stereo.
I think we are talking past each other. The effect you are talking about shows up in frequency domain. And we can apply techniques such as I described in my article that sharply reduce its impact. The point being that nothing in that analysis required me to look at events in time. Of course we need to acoustically align our speakers with respect to time delay. I don't call that time analysis. It is simple calibration.
No, you missed my point entirely. That is, an FR sweep does not give any information about time. From that sweep there is no way you can tell from inpsection that one speaker is closer by a foot than the other. Of course it is simple set up, and you would have to do it. Because time IS important.
One of *your* planks is that eq fixes time, fix the graph with eq and you can forget all about time. Ok, I completely accept you know where that applies and does not, but you continually reduce it to the simple and wrong maxim of 'eq everything it will be ok'.
Even in the bass which is where I think you really mean, I have showed you a few times now that does not always hold true. I can't be bothered posting the graphs again as you'd probably ignore it once more.
Suffice to say if the subs are half a second behind the mains, no amount of eq (or how pretty the graph is) will fix it.
What I am saying is that the effort to run ETC and such is for not. You are not going to gain any useful insight. The overriding metric there is to look at what reflections need to be enhanced and what not. The rest takes care of itself especially if you use the right speakers.
Just a quick one on the right speakers and your assertion that out of the bass the speaker dominates (cause the graph does not vary as much up there, proving the room can be 'ignored')..what happened to the accurate speaker?
Above the transition freq the speaker does not look very accurate compared to it's 'real' measurements. Well not that true, +- 5db or so is not bad in room I'll grant, the point is that you can hardly make the claim that 'the speaker literaly sets the tone', the room clearly has influenced the response you hear.
That was an analytical point. The preference tests show that such reflections even when they cause image-shift are not an issue. Indeed, they help with such things as speech intelligibility. If you accept that fact, then the next step is to characterize the good reflections which turns out to be the side-to-side.
You know what? Listening in mon, well I can readily accept that ANYTHING which increases LEV will be deemed desirable or beneficial.
Why? Cause it is in mono. No appreciable soundstage, width nor listener envelopment. Which by the research shown is exactly what listeners crave.
It is little wonder then that as it increases listener envelopment listeners were willing to add reflections having sound levels and delays that would cause strong image shift and broadening
The question is, in stereo (that can have lots of LEV that mono cannot) would listeners be willing to have 'strong image shifts'? Again, there would at least be a strong subset that most definitely would not, to them imaging is everything. One of the dreaded effects in stereo is the two foot mouth
Mono is a mainstream scenario itself in movie sound and multi-channel music. So even if you want to dismiss it in general, it is an important data point still.
I don't dismiss it at all, just question it's usefulness in judging stereo. Fine for timbre et al. The danger is that it can lead to erronous conclusions! (the only test in stereo you have mentioned involved 'heavy drapes' which I think would run counter to your own requirement that treatment be broadband if done)
However, I will admit a few things here haha. It has got me thinking today as I was bored mowing a few acres...there are a lot of 'accepted wisdoms' in audio...I too just accepted the wisdom of treatment. Don't get me wrong, I use it andit worked wonders, but as I said I was treating a different thing, slap echo as it turned out.
But also I don't think there are any sacred cows...and have been wondering how to do a controlled blind test on the 'general' preference on treatments in a normal listening room norally furnished (the other thing my experience does not cover...my room is not normal)
It would involve a bit of work (the challenge of which is appealing) but then again come oct I'd have about thrity guinea pigs which should proved a decent enough number.
I might ponder it a bit, but have been wondering what project I could take on to keep me occupied and today this popped into my head. Could even document it via video..
Ethan, coming back to a 'challenge/question' from amir....is there a reason you have not done blind tests? Does it pique your curiosity as it has mine? It is probably one of those things, we never think to question what we believe so it likely never occurs to us.
If *we* went ahead and give it a shot, would you guys be willing to work with us to nail it down as best we could prior? Things like what to test, how to gather the responses.
.. things like that.
Anyway some ramblings just now.
EDIT though I should add, it will be tested in stereo natch!