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New receiver/subwoofer problem

post #1 of 27
3/18/12 at 5:46am
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I had Onkyo TX-SR602 for about 6 years and decided to upgrade to Yamaha RX-A3000. I recently purchased a new TV as well and was modifying a stand for it and during that time my speakers were not perfectly in their location. When I tested it still with the Onkyo, everything sounded well especially subwoofer had really good punch and deep bass and a lot of air coming out of its port. I replaced Onkyo with Yamaha, moved speakers to their location, ran YPAO to try to get even better results (subwoofer location stayed pretty much same). To my surprise, that great punch an bass was gone and not too much air coming out from the port. Checked results in YPAO and somehow it shows that all my speakers are in reverse (W-1 warning). Double checked wiring and everything is correct. My subwoofer level was set to -10.0db. Raised it to +6.0db, but the results were not even close what I had with Onkyo.
Any suggestions?
Thanks
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post #2 of 27
3/18/12 at 6:50am
troubleshooting no.1 Make sure speakers are set to "small" as they are probably set to "large". Check what crossover YPAO chose and report back.

cheers
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post #3 of 27
3/18/12 at 7:19am
If all your settings are correct, from what I can tell yamaha receivers are pretty dull on bass. Using the dynamic eq helps a good deal... I'm eyeballing an emotiva xpa-2 in the mean time
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post #4 of 27
3/18/12 at 7:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by gogo_vs View Post

My subwoofer level was set to -10.0db. Raised it to +6.0db, but the results were not even close what I had with Onkyo.
Any suggestions?
Thanks

Did you raise it by turning down the gain on the sub and rerunning YPAO? Many people recommend setting the gain on the sub such that the room correction software determines a sub channel (trim) level between -3db and 0. This optimizes the sensitivity of the sub gain for the receiver. Then afterwards, bump up the sub channel on the receiver a few db if you need more bass.
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post #5 of 27
3/18/12 at 7:46am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jproy13 View Post

troubleshooting no.1 Make sure speakers are set to "small" as they are probably set to "large". Check what crossover YPAO chose and report back.

cheers

YPAO set my front speakers to large but I changed tham to small with 40Hz crossover. All other speakers are set to small.
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post #6 of 27
3/18/12 at 7:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by gogo_vs View Post

YPAO set my front speakers to large but I changed tham to small with 40Hz crossover. All other speakers are set to small.

Have you tried setting the crossover to 60 or 70Hz and let the sub handle the chest slam of 40 and 50Hz that most mains can't compete with?
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post #7 of 27
3/18/12 at 7:53am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Did you raise it by turning down the gain on the sub and rerunning YPAO? Many people recommend setting the gain on the sub such that the room correction software determines a sub channel (trim) level between -3db and 0. This optimizes the sensitivity of the sub gain for the receiver. Then afterwards, bump up the sub channel on the receiver a few db if you need more bass.

I am at work right now and I will try that when I get back home.
Should I try to reverse polarity on my speakers as well?
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post #8 of 27
3/18/12 at 7:56am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oztech View Post

Have you tried setting the crossover to 60 or 70Hz and let the sub handle the chest slam of 40 and 50Hz that most mains can't compete with?

Do you mean 60-70Hz on my front speakers? I have it set to 40Hz, but I can try to set it higher and see if it helps.
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post #9 of 27
3/18/12 at 7:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by gogo_vs View Post

Do you mean 60-70Hz on my front speakers? I have it set to 40Hz, but I can try to set it higher and see if it helps.

Yes your front speakers.
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post #10 of 27
3/18/12 at 8:06am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishpoke View Post

If all your settings are correct, from what I can tell yamaha receivers are pretty dull on bass. Using the dynamic eq helps a good deal... I'm eyeballing an emotiva xpa-2 in the mean time

I hope its just matter of setting up everything correctly. I really liked the bass output from my old Onkyo.
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post #11 of 27
3/18/12 at 8:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by gogo_vs View Post

I hope its just matter of setting up everything correctly. I really liked the bass output from my old Onkyo.

I'm pretty certain it's just a setting issue. The RX-A3000 should be a capable receiver.

Did you buy it new or used?
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post #12 of 27
3/18/12 at 8:08am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oztech View Post

Yes your front speakers.

I have JBL-ND310II with 2x10" woofers and they are going pretty low, but I can can try to play with the crossover.
My subwoofer is Cadence CSX15-MarkII
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post #13 of 27
3/18/12 at 8:16am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jproy13 View Post

I'm pretty certain it's just a setting issue. The RX-A3000 should be a capable receiver.

Did you buy it new or used?

It was purchased as an open box 10 days ago from Best Buy, but I did the factory reset.
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post #14 of 27
3/18/12 at 8:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by gogo_vs View Post

I have JBL-ND310II with 2x10" woofers and they are going pretty low, but I can can try to play with the crossover.
My subwoofer is Cadence CSX15-MarkII

While they are rated to go down to 37Hz I seriously doubt they are flat to that more like -3db down at that frequency which could mean a roll off started at 50 or 47 Hz don't actually know without proper graphing and to the ear anything below 100Hz starts to sound pretty low.
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post #15 of 27
3/18/12 at 9:00am
Thread Starter 
Thank you guys for the help. I will try to play with it when I get home.
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post #16 of 27
3/18/12 at 9:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by oztech View Post

While they are rated to go down to 37Hz I seriously doubt they are flat to that more like -3db down at that frequency which could mean a roll off started at 50 or 47 Hz don't actually know without proper graphing and to the ear anything below 100Hz starts to sound pretty low.

+1

Here is Sound and Vision Magazine's review of the CSX-12 Mark II and there is a frequency response graph. It's likely that the 15" would have some kind of similar roll off.
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post #17 of 27
3/18/12 at 9:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by gogo_vs View Post

I really liked the bass output from my old Onkyo.

Your ONKYO didn't really have "bass output". Not in regards to the subwoofer's output, anyway. Seems like a setting issue. Barring a problem with the AVR, there is no reason you shouldn't be able to get similar or identical performance with the same sub.

What crossover were you applying to your front speakers with the ONKYO?

You should figure out the reverse polarity issue. Did you move things around relative to the way it was setup before?

You didn't change the subwoofer distance setting from what YPAO found, did you?
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post #18 of 27
3/18/12 at 9:58am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

+1

Here is Sound and Vision Magazine's review of the CSX-12 Mark II and there is a frequency response graph. It's likely that the 15" would have some kind of similar roll off.

I was't expecting much from the 15" version since there is not too many reviews, but it really surprised me. Really nice deep bass. I felt the punch in my chest and it wasn't even that loud with my old Onkyo. I was just surprised that I couldn't replicate same effect so far with much better Yamaha.
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post #19 of 27
3/18/12 at 10:05am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

Your ONKYO didn't really have "bass output". Not in regards to the subwoofer's output, anyway. Seems like a setting issue. Barring a problem with the AVR, there is no reason you shouldn't be able to get similar or identical performance with the same sub.

What crossover were you applying to your front speakers with the ONKYO?

You should figure out the reverse polarity issue. Did you move things around relative to the way it was setup before?

You didn't change the subwoofer distance setting from what YPAO found, did you?

I would have to double check. The Onkyo doesn't have too many setting options, but it has crossover, level, etc.

Everything stayed in the same position.

No, I didn't. I was only playing with level/gain.
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post #20 of 27
3/18/12 at 10:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by gogo_vs View Post

I was't expecting much from the 15" version since there is not too many reviews, but it really surprised me. Really nice deep bass. I felt the punch in my chest and it wasn't even that loud with my old Onkyo. I was just surprised that I couldn't replicate same effect so far with much better Yamaha.

You mentioned that the sub is pretty much the same location, but how far did you move it? Sometimes just a couple of feet right or left along a wall can affect the sub response.
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post #21 of 27
3/18/12 at 10:28am
Here is a pretty good link on setting the subwoofer/LFE.

http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/ge...st-performance

THX recommends crossing everything over at 80Hz and that's a good place to start if your speakers and sub will allow it. I'd personally cross it over as high as you can without noticing localization (I obviously didn't follow all the advice in the link). I cross my system over at 90Hz even though all my speakers are rated to play <40Hz because my SubM does a great job with these frequencies and I don't notice localization.
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post #22 of 27
3/18/12 at 12:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gogo_vs View Post

I would have to double check. The Onkyo doesn't have too many setting options, but it has crossover, level, etc.

You don't know what crossover you were applying previously? This would be important to know as any difference will be....... well................... different.
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post #23 of 27
3/18/12 at 4:17pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

You mentioned that the sub is pretty much the same location, but how far did you move it? Sometimes just a couple of feet right or left along a wall can affect the sub response.

I would say no more than 2 feet.
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post #24 of 27
3/18/12 at 4:20pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjackkrash View Post

Here is a pretty good link on setting the subwoofer/LFE.

http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/ge...st-performance

THX recommends crossing everything over at 80Hz and that's a good place to start if your speakers and sub will allow it. I'd personally cross it over as high as you can without noticing localization (I obviously didn't follow all the advice in the link). I cross my system over at 90Hz even though all my speakers are rated to play <40Hz because my SubM does a great job with these frequencies and I don't notice localization.

I will try that. I didn't know that when you are playing with front speakers croosover it afects subwoofer's crossover to make sure you have full band.
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post #25 of 27
3/18/12 at 4:27pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

You don't know what crossover you were applying previously? This would be important to know as any difference will be....... well................... different.

When I was setting everything up, I didn't know much about crossovers,etc.
It was at least 6 years ago. I think I didn't even touch crossovers, only gain.
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post #26 of 27
3/18/12 at 4:29pm
Thread Starter 
I found a review from last year:

Review
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post #27 of 27
3/19/12 at 2:33pm
Thread Starter 
Thank you guys for your help. I re-ran YPAO multiple times until I had 0db on the subwoofer, changed my fronts to small and set crossover on all 7 speakers to 80Hz and my subwoofer is pounding again.
Do I have to be worry about reverse polarity on my speakers? (all of them are reversed per YPAO).
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