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Normal to turn sub all the way up for music?

post #1 of 24
3/20/12 at 6:00am
Thread Starter 
Just recently finished my 15" HF build and have a question. I have the sub hooked up to a XLS1000 (which is dead silent, thanks for the suggestion over the Behringer). The gain is turned to max on the amp. When listening to movies with a LFE track the subwoofer is set to -12 on the avr per Audyssey settings. There is more than enough bass to get things shaking. However, when listening to 2 ch music I have to bump the sub up to +7 to +12 to get it to hit hard. Is this normal? At -12 the sub doesn't even move. I listen to everything through a HTPC using XBMC and have tried playing audio in Winamp. Same issue.
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post #2 of 24
3/20/12 at 6:04am
Movie LFE tracks tend to be mixed at higher levels than music.
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post #3 of 24
3/20/12 at 8:11am
Funny that I get the exact opposite. where is your sub crossed over to your mains?
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post #4 of 24
3/20/12 at 8:16am
I too notice a large drop in bass when listening to music. That's why I loved the SMS-1 with the preset feature. Unfortunately it won't effectively handle multiple subs in multiple location...so onto the MiniDSP.
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post #5 of 24
3/20/12 at 8:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by djdcm0722 View Post

When listening to movies with a LFE track the subwoofer is set to -12 on the avr per Audyssey settings. There is more than enough bass to get things shaking. However, when listening to 2 ch music I have to bump the sub up to +7 to +12 to get it to hit hard. Is this normal? At -12 the sub doesn't even move.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrager View Post

I too notice a large drop in bass when listening to music. That's why I loved the SMS-1 with the preset feature. Unfortunately it won't effectively handle multiple subs in multiple location...so onto the MiniDSP.

You guys either just like a lot of bass or you are so used to the boom of room modes that you think it is part of the music. There is no loss of bass with Audyssey (assuming you did it right). There is the elimination of modal peaks and a flattening of the FR. If you prefer otherwise, that's your prerogative.
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post #6 of 24
3/20/12 at 10:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

You guys either just like a lot of bass or you are so used to the boom of room modes that you think it is part of the music. There is no loss of bass with Audyssey (assuming you did it right). There is the elimination of modal peaks and a flattening of the FR. If you prefer otherwise, that's your prerogative.

This is quite true, the normal response you are used to in a decent car audio setup is peaky and usually has a nice spike around 40-45hz IIRC to accentuate the bass notes, it may be you are just listening to nice flat bass for once. Then again, you may not like it
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post #7 of 24
3/20/12 at 10:34am
I run my subs way hot for lots of music.
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post #8 of 24
3/20/12 at 11:42am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Funny that I get the exact opposite. where is your sub crossed over to your mains?

Subs low pass is @ 80hz and the speakers at 60hz and 80hz. I listen to a lot of electronic and rap so they are very bass heavy. Before the sub I would still have to boost the bass to get the effect I wanted with music. I was just suprised that now having a sub I have to boost it so much. I am also sure I ran Audyssey right as I said earlier movies play fantastic.

As a side note, I have The Walking Dead from iTunes which is 2ch AAC and the bass is decent at -12. So maybe it is an issue with the FLAC and MP3 codec?
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post #9 of 24
3/20/12 at 12:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by djdcm0722 View Post

Subs low pass is @ 80hz and the speakers at 60hz and 80hz. I listen to a lot of electronic and rap so they are very bass heavy. Before the sub I would still have to boost the bass to get the effect I wanted with music. I was just suprised that now having a sub I have to boost it so much. I am also sure I ran Audyssey right as I said earlier movies play fantastic.

As a side note, I have The Walking Dead from iTunes which is 2ch AAC and the bass is decent at -12. So maybe it is an issue with the FLAC and MP3 codec?

I use a low level "restorer" function on my denon 3311 to bring back some of the low end. This seemed to help a lot getting the bass back into the music, and isnt boomy or as an intense raise as something like dynamicEQ would do. Perhaps also your sub sets up differently when you are in 2ch stereo mode. I know on my AVR that there is a seperate place to adjust for 2 channel playback completely seperate from the audyssey and standard XO and adjustments menu.

For instance, I COULD set my receiver to not use a sub for music and to switch my L/R's to full range, but when I switch back to dolby or other multichannel modes, it switches the mains back to be LP'd at 80hz and the sub to come back on... There are other combinations that could contribute to not hearing as pronounced bass. I know this specific example above isnt what you are experiencing since when you turn the sun up, it gets louder. If the above were true, that wouldnt happen.

Im just saying perhaps peruse around your AVR menus to make sure you arent missing somthing in stereo mode.
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post #10 of 24
3/20/12 at 12:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

I run my subs way hot for lots of music.

Of course you do. There's no way you could stare at that wall of drivers and not. Just looking at it in photos is enough to induce a trance-like state that has me reaching for the remote to turn it up:-)
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post #11 of 24
3/20/12 at 1:10pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Funny that I get the exact opposite. where is your sub crossed over to your mains?

Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

I use a low level "restorer" function on my denon 3311 to bring back some of the low end. This seemed to help a lot getting the bass back into the music, and isnt boomy or as an intense raise as something like dynamicEQ would do. Perhaps also your sub sets up differently when you are in 2ch stereo mode. I know on my AVR that there is a seperate place to adjust for 2 channel playback completely seperate from the audyssey and standard XO and adjustments menu.

For instance, I COULD set my receiver to not use a sub for music and to switch my L/R's to full range, but when I switch back to dolby or other multichannel modes, it switches the mains back to be LP'd at 80hz and the sub to come back on... There are other combinations that could contribute to not hearing as pronounced bass. I know this specific example above isnt what you are experiencing since when you turn the sun up, it gets louder. If the above were true, that wouldnt happen.

Im just saying perhaps peruse around your AVR menus to make sure you arent missing somthing in stereo mode.

Will do. Its not a big deal to have to turn the sub up. I was just curious to know if something was messed up. I'll play around with it later tonight and see what I come up with.
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post #12 of 24
3/20/12 at 4:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by djdcm0722 View Post

Just recently finished my 15" HF build and have a question. I have the sub hooked up to a XLS1000 (which is dead silent, thanks for the suggestion over the Behringer). The gain is turned to max on the amp. When listening to movies with a LFE track the subwoofer is set to -12 on the avr per Audyssey settings. There is more than enough bass to get things shaking. However, when listening to 2 ch music I have to bump the sub up to +7 to +12 to get it to hit hard. Is this normal? At -12 the sub doesn't even move. I listen to everything through a HTPC using XBMC and have tried playing audio in Winamp. Same issue.

What software are you using to watch the movies? Perhaps it has its own gain control that is separate from the system.

Have you tried listing to music from another source?
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post #13 of 24
3/20/12 at 5:51pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DustinF View Post

What software are you using to watch the movies? Perhaps it has its own gain control that is separate from the system.

Have you tried listing to music from another source?

I use XBMC for movies. Define "other source". As in another player? I have tried in Winamp as well as MPC and same same results. Haven't tried in iTunes and probably won't as I use XBMC for everything. Having to turn up the bass for music isn't a big deal. More of a minor annoyance.
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post #14 of 24
3/20/12 at 5:55pm
If you are playing mp3's and stuff like that, they generally take a hit in the low end department vs flac or any other type of lossless music. I know on my system, flac is good but mp3's do sound pretty crappy even at 320kbps.
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post #15 of 24
3/20/12 at 7:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

If you are playing mp3's and stuff like that, they generally take a hit in the low end department vs flac or any other type of lossless music. I know on my system, flac is good but mp3's do sound pretty crappy even at 320kbps.

I totally agree I notice a huge difference when playing from Cd/vs mp3.
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post #16 of 24
3/20/12 at 7:57pm
Was just listening to some justice remixes... just dance remix with mos def at 0db with +21db of subwoofer boost. good times.
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post #17 of 24
3/20/12 at 8:00pm
if you can boost +21db, then you must be a God, oh wait, this is notnyt, he is, THE God.....

bowing in honor..
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post #18 of 24
3/20/12 at 8:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiophile34 View Post

if you can boost +21db, then you must be a God, oh wait, this is notnyt, he is, THE God.....

bowing in honor..

Doesn't really mean anything, as you don't know what the peaks in that track are at... but still, it's a lot =]
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post #19 of 24
3/20/12 at 8:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post


Doesn't really mean anything, as you don't know what the peaks in that track are at... but still, it's a lot =]

Depends on the source or CD. I play a CD and 0 dBs would usually hit peaks of 108 dBs from the speakers so 129 dBs if 21 dBs hot. Basically you should be getting ear plugging up sensations that loud.
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post #20 of 24
3/20/12 at 9:21pm
129dB's isn't ear plugging! Thats just barely getting things going!!
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post #21 of 24
3/21/12 at 1:18am
I've never ever felt the need to increase the bass once the system is well set up, for music. However, it may be in part a genre thing for some. Some of the links I've seen to demo music I wouldn't listen to. Probably wouldn't even define some of it as music.
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post #22 of 24
3/21/12 at 3:36am
Thread Starter 
Figured out the problem. Played around with the crossover settings on the speakers and they were crossed way to low. Bass is much louder now. I still have to run it a little hot for music but that's how I like it
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post #23 of 24
3/21/12 at 10:14pm
Pro-audio is more regulated to known values than "home audio" equipment.

So in pro-audio terms, my DEQ2496 runs between -3 and -6db from 0Ref on peaks in +15dbu mode.

To that, my input structure on my Itech-8000 is 36.9db/1.86Vrms in +15dbu mode, I then apply a 29db eq boost below 200hz, with an input gain of -20db for music and -32db for movies.

But it all cases, the input stages and output stages (almost) never clip (ideally).
So I guess you could say that I'm running roughly ~12db hot for music.

But really...
The only thing that truely matters is the output voltage and amperage.

The upstream input stuff is just a means to an end, and may at-best, only indicate how close to clipping the input or output stage you might be on dynamic material (potentially). Each system will be different because we all use different electronics with different gain structures, reference values and sensitivities etc; so comparing them is almost meaningless.

As I said, you'd be better to put a voltmeter on the output of the amp into a known nominal ohm load if you want to have a better chance at comparing apples to apples. (Even then, there is still woofer-T/S differences etc etc.)
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post #24 of 24
3/22/12 at 5:11am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

Pro-audio is more regulated to known values than "home audio" equipment.

So in pro-audio terms, my DEQ2496 runs between -3 and -6db from 0Ref on peaks in +15dbu mode.

To that, my input structure on my Itech-8000 is 36.9db/1.86Vrms in +15dbu mode, I then apply a 29db eq boost below 200hz, with an input gain of -20db for music and -32db for movies.

But it all cases, the input stages and output stages (almost) never clip (ideally).
So I guess you could say that I'm running roughly ~12db hot for music.

But really...
The only thing that truely matters is the output voltage and amperage.

The upstream input stuff is just a means to an end, and may at-best, only indicate how close to clipping the input or output stage you might be on dynamic material (potentially). Each system will be different because we all use different electronics with different gain structures, reference values and sensitivities etc; so comparing them is almost meaningless.

As I said, you'd be better to put a voltmeter on the output of the amp into a known nominal ohm load if you want to have a better chance at comparing apples to apples. (Even then, there is still woofer-T/S differences etc etc.)

Thanks for the reply, but honestly... I have no clue what you are saying.
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