or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Speakers › Most Important Aspect of an Audio System
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Most Important Aspect of an Audio System - Page 6

post #151 of 280
Mark, are we allowed to start a separate new thread on the topic of the biz aspect of a speaker company? I just dig this kind of discussions
post #152 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Veda View Post

Mark, are we allowed to start a separate new thread on the topic of the biz aspect of a speaker company? I just dig this kind of discussions

the reason for my post was reports received: members insulting other members and such: if that can be avoided feel free to discuss it here or in another thread

Thanks
post #153 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Respect is earned, and since to date, you haven't actually provided any cost sheets, you won't get any from me. If what you say is true, why haven't you founded a speaker manufacturing company? Imagine the profits based on your estimates of cost.

You also ignore all of the other costs that go into planning/building/testing designs and sales/marketing costs. But hey, you're the snake oil salesman....

Edit: I see Dennis beat me to it.

Actually I did briefly mentioned the OTHER costs(ie: R&D, marketing etc) associated with mfg. a product.........

I enjoy the AV scene now as a hobbyist, not a salesman, have no interest in starting up a speaker mfg. company, but I do enjoy sharing ideas and insights from technical to political. Obviously people have a hard time grasping some of the insights and needlessly take offense to it.

And btw: I am not "bitchin" about any specific speaker mfg., what I am bitchin about is the overall markup on speakers in general. Your taking me out of context(shocker), along with others. I mean, I see COUNTLESS posts and threads with COUNTLESS people taking and complaining about rediculous markup of speaker cabling from a multitude of angles.......Im just extending this to include speakers as well since they are basically in the same category of overall markup.

But hey since you've been to BA(I assume this was years ago before they were bought out and operated out of Pebody), and are aware of just how large of a mfg. plant it is(or was), then you should also take into account the type of VOLUME they did back then even. Again, one example. As I stated previously, their ELECTRICITY COST is more expensive than the actual MATERIAL cost on some of their finished products. And you should know that as well.
post #154 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain96 View Post

Here:
Linyi Haoqing Wood Co., Ltd. Im sure you can easily google their email inquiry address. You want 18mm thickness, 1220mmx1440mm......most common stuff...........get back to us on cost. After a quick search I can still find basic plain 3/4" MDF locally for $25 for a single 4x8 sheet at retail cost here locally............so I can just imaging what the bulk wholesale cost still is when ordering many cubic meters of the stuff will cost(or not cost). Regardless, 25 bucks at end user cost for a single sheet......kind of backs my point up. You can rip out quite a few pairs of monitors with a single sheet of mdf.

And btw, yeah, for $600 you sure can build a hell of a nice speaker. THe best sounding(And nicest looking for that matter) speakers that I have heard were built by hobbyist individuals. Might want to check out the DIY section here and some of the dedicated forums in the net. Its actually alot of fun.

How many Salon's do you/have you owned?
post #155 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwarny View Post

When you did your comparison of passive to active, did you mimic the passive crossover? If not, did you change the crossover point, order, l-pad, or lcr depending if it had one? How does someone set their active crossovers? Did you measure the on-axis and then tweak it to have a uniform off-axis (horizontal, vertical)? I assume you don't listen on axis since there is probably an on-axis anomaly with the coaxial. I always wanted to try an active crossover with some cheap drivers for fun but I am unsure if the active crossover things have a floor noise from fans or the driver.

Thanks

Using the values of the passive xover as a base starting point and tweaking from there. Im my XQ20's I ended up underlapping the tweeter/woofer and extra 500hz vs. factory setting. Using both software and a hardware RTA speakers were swept for average response on the horizontal listening plane only(since the XQ20 technically is a "point source" driver). I use Rane's DEQ60l's in cut mod only using perfectQ, they have an extremely low noise floor. Excellent item for HT/home audio use. Nice thing also is Im able to get rid of all the sandblock attenuators out of line too since I can individually set the tweeter to woofer levels.
post #156 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

How many Salon's do you/have you owned?

1 pair.
post #157 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain96 View Post

Im just extending this to include speakers as well since they are basically in the same category of overall markup.

Just to clarify, is it your position that Ascend (just as an example) can build a single Sierra-1 bookshelf ($850/pr, $425 a pop) for ~$21? I'd have a hard time believing that personally, especially given that the speaker is hand assembled and tested in the US. Or conversely, are you lambasting companies ala Bose or maybe even someone along the lines of Wilson Audio?
post #158 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain96 View Post

I am about to begin a project where I convert my Salon's to a fully active system as well, and will be modifying the cabinet and installing the rear facing bass port to underneath the cabinet facing downward in which I will make some higher custom feet to allow for ample space between the port and floor.

Then perhaps you bought them back? I've seen several references to previous ownership:

The last pair of towers I owned was a pair of Revel Salon's, and those speakers cannot touch my XQ10/D15SE setup which cost 5 figures less in money spent.

Take my Old Revel Salon's, or B&W 8 series tower speakers. The majority of the material is mdf, even the crossovers were STILL using generic run of the mill components. The drivers themselves, though proprietary in many cases, were still in reality "average" in terms of whats available to the DIY market.


But this is true of pretty much all tower speakers, and one reason why I won't even own another tower speaker again.

and yet

Yes I remember these well. Actually have a set of Model 2's in their original boxes in the basement, near brand new still.......I take em out every once in awhile to play them.

No explanation necessary, I just like to ensure credibility before I shell out $600 to someone.
post #159 of 280

Yep, those are my words, obviously a typo which should read" last pair" bought on a quick post wrote, as the Salon's are the last pair of full towers I did buy. Should I toss up some obvious(and trivial in all honesty) discrepancies in a number of your posts on a few varying subjects Ive noticed?

Regardless, if you know what your actually doing, $600 on a set of DIY speakers can net you alot more speaker than what you can buy for the same money and many times over.

Regardless
post #160 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post


Just to clarify, is it your position that Ascend (just as an example) can build a single Sierra-1 bookshelf ($850/pr, $425 a pop) for ~$21? I'd have a hard time believing that personally, especially given that the speaker is hand assembled and tested in the US. Or conversely, are you lambasting companies ala Bose or maybe even someone along the lines of Wilson Audio?

Calculating costs based entirely on cost of materials is fantasy land. The "other" costs associated with running a business have already been mentioned and they often far exceed the costs of material. In fact, my company uses hardly any material at all, yet it costs me a whole lot of cash to keep it running. It's funny how my employees want those paychecks every single pay period...
post #161 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post

Just to clarify, is it your position that Ascend (just as an example) can build a single Sierra-1 bookshelf ($850/pr, $425 a pop) for ~$21? I'd have a hard time believing that personally, especially given that the speaker is hand assembled and tested in the US. Or conversely, are you lambasting companies ala Bose or maybe even someone along the lines of Wilson Audio?

In terms of actual material cost? Or are we taking into account "R&D, marketing, packaging, coffee" etc.

All jokes aside, what type of volume sales do you think they do? How many do they make in a batch? I can tell you off hand that wholesale cost on the tweeters and 5" drivers for both pairs doesnt exceed $20-25 bucks. How much MDF is used? Lets high ball it here though for arguments sake. Lets say $40 dollars for both the tweeters and woofer pairs total. $5 for the mdf(or in their case "laminated recycled bamboo" which is also DIRT CHEAP lol), $5 for the xovers and $5 for the binding posts.......add in another few bucks for the paintjob. $60 a pair in total material cost..........and thats definetly a highball IMO. Again material cost only here. I put it realistically in the $40 range depending on their buying power of raw material goods and components.
post #162 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Calculating costs based entirely on cost of materials is fantasy land. The "other" costs associated with running a business have already been mentioned and they often far exceed the costs of material. In fact, my company uses hardly any material at all, yet it costs me a whole lot of cash to keep it running. It's funny how my employees want those paychecks every single pay period...

Of course, but this has already been mentioned. But again, when you compare a set of speakers with only basically a few components and cheap fiberpulp wood shavings(mdf), some that cost more than a new car........adn then you put it in persepctive with that said new car(which has thousands of components, thousands of pounds worth of materials and components NOT pulpwood)which also probably costs ALOT more in R&D,marketing, mfg cost etc etc then you would think people can put certain things in their proper perspective and understand varying points and angles on a simple debate. Keeping things more apples to apples(in terms of AV equipment) You can pick up some nice amplification for realtively cheap money from some of these ID companies. Some of these amps costing a few hundred bucks, technically have a much higher material cost than some of the marketed speakers that are sold for 4 and 5 figures..........
post #163 of 280
Just to clear things up, no one is dismissing the amount of performance you can get on the "cheap" by going DIY; it's the rest of the fantasy land bogus statements people are objecting to. As far as I know you cannot get the RAAL ribbon tweeter for whole sale or on the cheap; a pair costs $700. The same to other high end drivers.
post #164 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain96 View Post

Should I toss up some obvious(and trivial in all honesty) discrepancies in a number of your posts on a few varying subjects Ive noticed?

Well, I have made no claims that would lead to severe credibility issues, but yes please do - particularly if it will keep you from reposting your mantra for awhile!
post #165 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

Well, I have made no claims that would lead to severe credibility issues, but yes please do - particularly if it will keep you from reposting your mantra for awhile!

Haha +1
post #166 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain96 View Post

In terms of actual material cost? Or are we taking into account "R&D, marketing, packaging, coffee" etc.

All jokes aside, what type of volume sales do you think they do? How many do they make in a batch? I can tell you off hand that wholesale cost on the tweeters and 5" drivers for both pairs doesnt exceed $20-25 bucks. How much MDF is used? Lets high ball it here though for arguments sake. Lets say $40 dollars for both the tweeters and woofer pairs total. $5 for the mdf(or in their case "laminated recycled bamboo" which is also DIRT CHEAP lol), $5 for the xovers and $5 for the binding posts.......add in another few bucks for the paintjob. $60 a pair in total material cost..........and thats definetly a highball IMO. Again material cost only here. I put it realistically in the $40 range depending on their buying power of raw material goods and components.

While I believe you are off on your wholesale costs, are you including in those numbers the cost to get the items to the shop for assembly? What about taking that bamboo/mdf and turning it into a cabinet?

BTW...while raw bamboo may be cheap (it is used all over Asia in raw form), it is not cheap getting it in laminated form...much more than MDF.

Also, how much would have that Rythmik cost you if you did it yourself? Why didn't you?
post #167 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Just to clear things up, no one is dismissing the amount of performance you can get on the "cheap" by going DIY; it's the rest of the fantasy land bogus statements people are objecting to. As far as I know you cannot get the RAAL ribbon tweeter for whole sale or on the cheap; a pair costs $700. The same to other high end drivers.

Agreed.

While raw materials for the RAAL is certainly much cheaper. Assembly is labor intensive, and getting them here to the US is not cheap.
post #168 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Just to clear things up, no one is dismissing the amount of performance you can get on the "cheap" by going DIY; it's the rest of the fantasy land bogus statements people are objecting to. As far as I know you cannot get the RAAL ribbon tweeter for whole sale or on the cheap; a pair costs $700. The same to other high end drivers.

Well if a DIYer wanted to make a pair of monitors or towers with a pair of those tweeters, I can garetee you he is still going to be saving serious coin vs. paying X amount of dollars to have them implemented in a prefabbed speaker where marketing costs, distributor and/or end retailer markup is also tagged on. Honestly though I personally wouldnt waste money on a RAAL driver when for the same money or less you can get a superior full range driver like something from Fostex, or Lowther, Seas,Markaudio(or name another brand of choosing) and bypass needing any xover whatsoever. Ribbons are nice, but have too many limitations and shortcomings. I personally prefer keeping things simple with point source/full range setups in a monitor format.
post #169 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

While I believe you are off on your wholesale costs, are you including in those numbers the cost to get the items to the shop for assembly? What about taking that bamboo/mdf and turning it into a cabinet?

BTW...while raw bamboo may be cheap (it is used all over Asia in raw form), it is not cheap getting it in laminated form...much more than MDF.

Also, how much would have that Rythmik cost you if you did it yourself? Why didn't you?

Need to remember, that raw driver markup is substantial too, anything "boutique" in form like AV parts has very high markup in the 100% range(So if say Madison is charging say $400 for a driver, they are buying around half that or less even depending on quantity)or greater.

As for assembly? OK, so how much do you think labor costs to make a cabinet? The general laborer is making how much? And on an assembly line, how many pairs of speakers do you think can be cut, routed,stapled/glued together in an hours time? I know with my table and panel saw, and routers I can cut and assemble a pair of basic 2 way monitor's in an hours time. Now how fast do you think this can be done from a company with a basic assembly line procedure with decent efficiency and layout? I can bet you the labor is not as high as you think.............especially if its done overseas........dirt cheap I bet.
post #170 of 280
Why are we still feeding this guy? Someone smack me for responding to him more than necessary. Let's all ignore his unproven claims. Those in need of attention will look for it elsewhere when they're ignored.
post #171 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain96 View Post

Need to remember, that raw driver markup is substantial too, anything "boutique" in form like AV parts has very high markup in the 100% range(So if say Madison is charging say $400 for a driver, they are buying around half that or less even depending on quantity)or greater.

I have seen a number of your claims of product markups without an ounce of proof to back them up. I think we all get it that you prefer the DIY route to that of buying premade speakers sold at a huge mark up. So why don't you stick to the facts those that you can show actual proof of.

You talk about the speakers you build for short money and how they are better than speakers 10x their cost in both performance and appearance. Why not post some pictures of these speakers with actual measurements taken to back up your claims.

Bill
post #172 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain96 View Post

Need to remember, that raw driver markup is substantial too, anything "boutique" in form like AV parts has very high markup in the 100% range(So if say Madison is charging say $400 for a driver, they are buying around half that or less even depending on quantity)or greater.

As for assembly? OK, so how much do you think labor costs to make a cabinet? The general laborer is making how much? And on an assembly line, how many pairs of speakers do you think can be cut, routed,stapled/glued together in an hours time? I know with my table and panel saw, and routers I can cut and assemble a pair of basic 2 way monitor's in an hours time. Now how fast do you think this can be done from a company with a basic assembly line procedure with decent efficiency and layout? I can bet you the labor is not as high as you think.............especially if its done overseas........dirt cheap I bet.

So what are we discussing? DIYer costs vs wholesale costs vs costs in quantity?

Why are you asking me the questions on the cost of building a cabinet? I'm asking you...what it the cost to the speaker manufacturer. It isn't $5.

A few years ago, I was talking to a few different speaker vendors, and the cost of their cabinets from good 'ole Mark Schifter and his shenanigans . For a bookshelf speaker, they were looking at $40-50 a pair (it might have been each...but I will give you the benefit). Of course, these were from China...and the speaker manufacturers I communicated with said that was a great deal.

Based on that...your claims don't jive. Maybe you are talking just plain MDF boxes with no finish.
post #173 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Why are we still feeding this guy? Someone smack me for responding to him more than necessary. Let's all ignore his unproven claims. Those in need of attention will look for it elsewhere when they're ignored.

Seriously! I say we send him off to the Ultra High End HT Gear room, just for laughs.
post #174 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Why are we still feeding this guy? Someone smack me for responding to him more than necessary. Let's all ignore his unproven claims. Those in need of attention will look for it elsewhere when they're ignored.

Nuance...you have to look at it as entertainment. When you do, it takes on a whole new meaning.

Think about how much work is put into a Salk bookshelf speaker cabinet. $5? Even in just raw materials...no way.
post #175 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Nuance...you have to look at it as entertainment. When you do, it takes on a whole new meaning.

Think about how much work is put into a Salk bookshelf speaker cabinet. $5? Even in just raw materials...no way.

How about we change this up a lil bit and put it into much better perspective? Give me a link to what you consider to be a great "high end" speaker........something thats still within the reach of a typical AVS board member.
post #176 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain96 View Post

How about we change this up a lil bit and put it into much better perspective? Give me a link to what you consider to be a great "high end" speaker........something thats still within the reach of a typical AVS board member.

Why does it need to be high end? What is a "typical" AVS board member?

A change-up would be great. Bill Mac had a good suggestion...throw up one of your designs with measurements.
post #177 of 280
Thread Starter 
So this is fun?

In any case, I think it is interesting that speakers lead the way. In a music only two channel system that makes sense. But when you need to get sound right over a large listening area with multiple seats/rows, the room and electronics (i.e. EQ) play a bigger part.

I wonder if I had been more specific about a multi-channel Home Theater system, would the results would be the same?
post #178 of 280
Wow I never understood why would anyone have a problem on how a company would try to make a profit,( Notice I say try) if they have something I want it's worth the cost to me.
McDonald sell fries for for $2.30 or so for large serving..That's about the cost of a bag of potato, but the time to peel, cut, oil transporting all those major ingredients and burning of a few hairs of my arm something isn't worth it to me. So I see it as a deal to just jump in one these fast food place and just pay for an order if that's what I'm jonesing.

As much respect I have for Diyer's, I just don't have those set of skills and probably why I have and enjoying reading about those guys doing their magic. Besides I would like to do something like this if I had to make my own speaker, and buy the look of it I'm sure it wasn't cheap. http://www.hometheater.com/content/diy-max I'm sure this guy would charge a pretty penny for these if anyone would want a pair, and i would gladly pay it for his pain and suffering.

DJoel
post #179 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

So what are we discussing? DIYer costs vs wholesale costs vs costs in quantity?

Why are you asking me the questions on the cost of building a cabinet? I'm asking you...what it the cost to the speaker manufacturer. It isn't $5.

A few years ago, I was talking to a few different speaker vendors, and the cost of their cabinets from good 'ole Mark Schifter and his shenanigans . For a bookshelf speaker, they were looking at $40-50 a pair (it might have been each...but I will give you the benefit). Of course, these were from China...and the speaker manufacturers I communicated with said that was a great deal.

Its alot closer to $5 bucks for a cabinet than it is to $50 without question, especially with what you dont pay for labor over there. Here is a nice lil link: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=302-700 $100 bucks a pair, RETAIL. WHat do you think parts xpress makes on this item? WHat do you think they buy at? I bet they buy at around $40-50 tops for the pair, and then take into account these are finished in gloss black paint, with magnetic grilles........and they are the "end retailer"........so how much does it cost Dayton to make or outsource them do you think so they can make a profit as well? So if Mark whoever was quoting $40-50 a pair, thats probably about right.........the actual mfg. of those cabinets was probably able to make each pair in the $5-10 range or less. Backs my point quite well.
post #180 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain96 View Post

How about we change this up a lil bit and put it into much better perspective? Give me a link to what you consider to be a great "high end" speaker........something thats still within the reach of a typical AVS board member.

That would be a great idea. But why do you keep asking others to provide links when you have been asked the same question numerous times. I haven't seen you provide any unless I missed them. Did you miss my post? Some facts to back up your mark up claims (invoices would be good) and some pictures of your DIY speakers with measurements would be a great change of pace.

Bill
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Speakers
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Speakers › Most Important Aspect of an Audio System