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2012 models are disappointing - Page 2

post #31 of 114
3/21/12 at 2:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Complaining that the vendors won't offer premium features like XT32 in less expensive units is being unrealistic, at least until XT64 (or whatever) is available. Why would a vendor cannibalize it's own premium market?

Why should Trinnov be in a receiver? It should stay in extremely expensive audiophile equipment, because it would just hurt Trinnov's bottom line right?

Why should lower end Denon receivers have XT? They should have just stayed at 2EQ like Onkyo and moved XT to their higher end receivers. It must be killing their sales...

Not many higher end units have been announced this year, but there really isn't anything enticing over last years' models right now (or 2 years in the 4311's case).
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post #32 of 114
3/21/12 at 2:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Here are a few, strictly on the audio performance side (I'm a casual video user at best, and don't know or care about it much):

-Real multisub capability, a la Harman SFM. XT32 handles multisubs poorly, so in my mind not even trying (XT, ARC) is a better solution.

That would put you in the minority. Most XT32 users have measurements that confirm how well it works with multiple subs. XT 32 may not be perfect, but to suggest running subs w/o eq is a better option is hyperbole
-Superior handling of mains/sub integration. AVRs today do it poorly, because they do not run the mains and the subs together. Instead, they ping each separately and pray that their interaction will be predictable.
Does this exist in any consumer level product? If not, why would you expect it in a 2012 receiver
-"Advanced modes" with target curve editing and such, using the hardware that already comes with the unit and a computer linkup. (Audyssey Pro already gives one this ability. But it's an expensive add on.)
As you state, this is available with Pro. MCACC offers it out of the box
-OSX compatibility for RC software (ARC and Audyssey Pro must be run in Parallels or similar virtualization software on a Mac)
This isn't an AVR issue, it's a question for Audyssey. Frankly, I doubt it's worth developing given the small market for Pro and the micro market of Pro users with a OSX based computer, particularly given the availability of emulators which allow it to run on that platform.
-Spatial remapping, a la Trinnov.
Look at what Trinnov costs - not a realistic expectation. And the one AVR that did offer it tanked. Comprehensively
-More energy-efficient amplification (that most AVR's in 2012 still use 1970s amplifier technology puzzles me. Small/cheap ones should use modern chip amps, and bigger ones should use Class D amps)
Already exist, not sure why you mention it.
-Pre-out/main-in loops, so advanced users can use the internal amps to drive speakers with outboard active crossovers.
Of value to at least 10 people worldwide, and those folks don't usually buy commodity AVRs

Your wish list is comprised of technology already available and items that would drive AVR costs beyond anything the market will sustain. The market for $7k flagships is long gone and the boutique brands are already 2-3 years behind the commodity vendors, so they aren't likely to produce your dream AVR in 2012 (or 2013, or 2014)
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post #33 of 114
3/21/12 at 3:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

Why should Trinnov be in a receiver? It should stay in extremely expensive audiophile equipment, because it would just hurt Trinnov's bottom line right?

Why should lower end Denon receivers have XT? They should have just stayed at 2EQ like Onkyo and moved XT to their higher end receivers. It must be killing their sales...

Not many higher end units have been announced this year, but there really isn't anything enticing over last years' models right now (or 2 years in the 4311's case).

Look what happened to the one commodity receiver that had Trinnov - it tanked. BTW, that was a limited feature set implementation of Trinnov, not the full suite available in their outboard EQ products.

Audyssey versions move down the Denon (and other) product lines as new versions become available. Who would buy the 431x if the 231x offered XT 32? The oldest versions eventually depart as the newer technology cascades down. This is Tech 101 and isn't specific to AVRs
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post #34 of 114
3/21/12 at 3:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Look what happened to the one commodity receiver that had Trinnov - it tanked. BTW, that was a limited feature set implementation of Trinnov, not the full suite available in their outboard EQ products.
...

I don't think the R-972 tanked because of Trinnov, but because of shoddy initial implementation of HDMI and video scaling issues.

And while this may be a stripped down version of Trinnov, its 3D remapping is still a pretty dramatic improvement over Audyssey. In fact, even without 3D remapping, the EQ portion of Trinnov provides a noticeable improvement over Audyssey XT in my setup.

I really hope that unrelated quality control issues with the R-972 would not serve to derail the mainstream adoption of Trinnov, although Audyssey's critical mass may be a challange.
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post #35 of 114
3/21/12 at 4:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan1 View Post


I don't think the R-972 tanked because of Trinnov, but because of shoddy initial implementation of HDMI and video scaling issues.

And while this may be a stripped down version of Trinnov, its 3D remapping is still a pretty dramatic improvement over Audyssey. In fact, even without 3D remapping, the EQ portion of Trinnov provides a noticeable improvement over Audyssey XT in my setup.

I really hope that unrelated quality control issues with the R-972 would not serve to derail the mainstream adoption of Trinnov, although Audyssey's critical mass may be a challange.

While I don't think Trinnov was the reason, it also wasn't compelling enough to keep the 972 going. If the close out prices drop further, I'd like to pick one up to see what Trinnov can do compared to Audyssey XT 32 w/pro

It doesn't look like much is in the pipeline. If I remember correctly, Curt from Trinnov said that there were no plans at this time to license any AVR's. Too bad, as it would be good to see someone pushing Audyssey.
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post #36 of 114
3/21/12 at 5:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Your wish list is comprised of technology already available

Um, that's the point. It's not available in combination. For example, one can get modern Class D amps in an AVR, but not with top-tier room correction (ARC, Audyssey, Trinnov, RoomPerfect, etc.).

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

and items that would drive AVR costs beyond anything the market will sustain.

How do you know?

For instance, how much would it cost to rewrite a few lines of code such that the measurement system already in the unit adds a set of sweeps through the subs and mains up to 200Hz or so?

Seriously, what's up with the defeatist/apologist streak you're showing in this thread?

Besides, given that little Anthem can offer damn near full-blown ARC in a thoroughly competent package for $1000, why can't the higher-volume players be expected to do better?
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post #37 of 114
3/21/12 at 5:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan1 View Post

I don't think the R-972 tanked because of Trinnov, but because of shoddy initial implementation of HDMI and video scaling issues.

And while this may be a stripped down version of Trinnov, its 3D remapping is still a pretty dramatic improvement over Audyssey. In fact, even without 3D remapping, the EQ portion of Trinnov provides a noticeable improvement over Audyssey XT in my setup.

I really hope that unrelated quality control issues with the R-972 would not serve to derail the mainstream adoption of Trinnov, although Audyssey's critical mass may be a challange.


The 972 had multiple issues..
Brand, distribution, weak economy..
But the primary problem for Trinnov was the software itself, significant time & $ were spent by Sherwood/Inkel, Trinnov and TI to develop, debug, validate and certify the S/W..
Whereas if a brand chooses to include Audyssey, they can get validated, mature, stable code from any of the audio DSP suppliers including Analog Devices, Cirrus Logic and TI..

The Trinnov and its performance contributions are incredible, but to deliver, robust, reliable S/W takes alot of resources, time & $...

Just my $0.02...
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post #38 of 114
3/21/12 at 5:26pm
Maybe it isn't feasible for AVR companies to do it yet, but if the 4311 can do XT32 with 140wpc and 9.1 w dsx and all the bells and whistles at around $1,300, why couldn't a 7.1 AVR with 100wpc, no DSX, but have XT32 be made for $1,000? The high end models would retain DSX/NEO:X/4k upscaling/11.1 preouts, etc.

I think this would fill a nice little gap for a lot of buyers who don't need the extras, but want a killer 7.1 setup. I would have jumped all over something like this. The only reason I jumped on the 4311 was because of the price/value.
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post #39 of 114
3/21/12 at 6:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post


Um, that's the point. It's not available in combination. For example, one can get modern Class D amps in an AVR, but not with top-tier room correction (ARC, Audyssey, Trinnov, RoomPerfect, etc.).

How do you know?

For instance, how much would it cost to rewrite a few lines of code such that the measurement system already in the unit adds a set of sweeps through the subs and mains up to 200Hz or so?

Seriously, what's up with the defeatist/apologist streak you're showing in this thread?

Besides, given that little Anthem can offer damn near full-blown ARC in a thoroughly competent package for $1000, why can't the higher-volume players be expected to do better?

It only appears to be defeatist/apologist to someone living in a fantasy land where commodity electronics manufactures add expensive features which only a fraction of the owners would value or use, but still sell said AVR'S at a price point where enough volume can be sold to generate profit in a down economy. Unfortunately, the high volume players are bleeding red ink, so they aren't going to be doing much development for the next few years.

Not sure what point you're making with Anthem and the $1k price point, as the Denon 4311 with XT32 is available for about $200 more.

If you believe that delivering integrated multichannel interaction analysis to existing discrete channel room eq can be realized via a simple "rewrite a few lines of code", you should reconsider what it would actually take to make the transition. And if they were willing to make the investment to make significant changes to the code, additional processing power would need to be added to the unit, driving cost up further.
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post #40 of 114
3/21/12 at 6:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post


If you believe that delivering integrated multichannel interaction analysis to existing discrete channel room eq can be realized via a simple "rewrite a few lines of code", you should reconsider what it would actually take to make the transition. And if they were willing to make the investment to make significant changes to the code, additional processing power would need to be added to the unit, driving cost up further.

sadly, this is now the attitude of many, because they think that because they can use a sdk to overlay an exposed interface they are "developing" software... when nothing could be further from the truth... they do not understand what actually goes into the process of truly "developing"...

edit: i miss the days of big iron... there wasn't any of this foolishness of people thinking they were "developing" software by using a tool that allows them to make a pretty front end...
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post #41 of 114
3/21/12 at 7:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcsoul View Post

Yamaha has fine quality, but no dsx wide, no PLIIz and no NeoX.

How does the "presence channels" stack up on HT? Yamaha does have
many in-house surround modes too, how do they stack up on music
(including the use of "presence")?

There dsp's aren't half bad on the yamahas. Sci-fi is one I use the most to take advantage of all my speakers. Just wish they would place ypao on the same level as audyssey xt32. This whole RSC implementation sucks in the latest ypao.
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post #42 of 114
3/21/12 at 8:06pm
So if I'm getting this right, our AVRs,
-work as an amp (their intended purposes)
-work as a pre amp(same as above)
-have pre outs (some)
-powers up to 3 zones
-decode all the formats (technologies that AVR manufacturers have to implement)
-Have legacy, digital, and HDMI connection (HDMI being another tech that they have to implement)
-are HDMI switcher
-upconvert
-upscale (tech, they have to implement)
-make our crappy rooms sound magical
-play nice with our smartphones and tablet
-bluetooth compatible (tech they have to implement)
-DLNA compatible (tech they have to implement)
-internet compatible
-wireless

After all this, on another thread, apparently, they should have GUIs like smartphones do.

All this tech that AVR manufacturer's have to stuff in their boxes needs to play nice with no bugs, be aestethic, not to big, run cool, all this explained to us in 15 words in a 2 page manual etc etc...

And we are still asking for more...

Oh, and we only want to pay...very little.

cheers
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post #43 of 114
3/21/12 at 8:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jproy13 View Post

So if I'm getting this right, our AVRs,
-work as an amp (their intended purposes)
-work as a pre amp(same as above)
-have pre outs (some)
-powers up to 3 zones
-decode all the formats (technologies that AVR manufacturers have to implement)
-Have legacy, digital, and HDMI connection (HDMI being another tech that they have to implement)
-are HDMI switcher
-upconvert
-upscale (tech, they have to implement)
-make our crappy rooms sound magical
-play nice with our smartphones and tablet
-bluetooth compatible (tech they have to implement)
-DLNA compatible (tech they have to implement)
-internet compatible
-wireless

After all this, on another thread, apparently, they should have GUIs like smartphones do.

All this tech that AVR manufacturer's have to stuff in their boxes needs to play nice with no bugs, be aestethic, not to big, run cool, all this explained to us in 15 words in a 2 page manual etc etc...

And we are still asking for more...

Oh, and we only want to pay...very little.

cheers

I posted this link earlier, but I think you'll get a kick out of it. Louis C.K. is one of my favorites.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r1CZTLk-Gk
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post #44 of 114
3/21/12 at 8:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjackkrash View Post

Hmm. I'm glad I bought my 4311 the week it came out and that I won't need to replace it anytime soon.

That's because you haven't seen a Denon AVR4250 yet.
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post #45 of 114
3/21/12 at 8:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Read a book on economics and how exchange rates work, then report back.



You really believe that you are getting less and paying more for electronics, and more specifically AVR's.?

My Denon 3300 (purchased over a decade ago) cost about the same my A100, yet I'm very comfortable in saying that there is are a lot more features in the newer model. A LOT more.

I doubt you could name any electronic devices where your statement is accurate.

My post
Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest
"Don't be fooled, money is money, we are paying alot more, and getting less. As the title to this thread tells what its all about. If you think the new 2012 avrs are a big disappointment, just wait for the 2013 and 2014. By 2020 a avr will just be a crappy apple app."

The trend is getting much worse, in the past only the sharpest would know the cuts, but its becoming obvious to even the noobs to see and hear what their dollar gets. There are big trade offs, Audio guts traded for cheap useless software. Who cares if the iphone can link to my AVR, next my can opener will up the volume cause of the noise it makes when in use. The AVR is going to be a jack of all trades, but won't do anything well, unless you spend very big bucks.. A100/4311 is a good deal and even better when on sale @ 1.25k.. But I think denon over produce and needed to fire sale them out the door, but that what makes it a great deal, its not the norm.
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post #46 of 114
3/21/12 at 9:50pm
I thought the 2012 Onkyos are the only ones that have been announced so far. Isn't it a little early to be disappointed in 2012 receivers if we don't know for sure what they will have.
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post #47 of 114
3/21/12 at 9:52pm
I believe onkyo, yamaha, denon, and pioneer have all released specs for some of this years models.
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post #48 of 114
3/21/12 at 10:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jproy13 View Post

So if I'm getting this right, our AVRs,
-work as an amp (their intended purposes)
-work as a pre amp(same as above)
-have pre outs (some)
-powers up to 3 zones
-decode all the formats (technologies that AVR manufacturers have to implement)
-Have legacy, digital, and HDMI connection (HDMI being another tech that they have to implement)
-are HDMI switcher
-upconvert
-upscale (tech, they have to implement)
-make our crappy rooms sound magical
-play nice with our smartphones and tablet
-bluetooth compatible (tech they have to implement)
-DLNA compatible (tech they have to implement)
-internet compatible
-wireless

After all this, on another thread, apparently, they should have GUIs like smartphones do.

All this tech that AVR manufacturer's have to stuff in their boxes needs to play nice with no bugs, be aestethic, not to big, run cool, all this explained to us in 15 words in a 2 page manual etc etc...

And we are still asking for more...

Oh, and we only want to pay...very little.

cheers

+1100 that's it in a nutshell

must wipe your _____ as well
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post #49 of 114
3/22/12 at 12:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDEaston View Post

I believe onkyo, yamaha, denon, and pioneer have all released specs for some of this years models.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjpearce023 View Post

I thought the 2012 Onkyos are the only ones that have been announced so far. Isn't it a little early to be disappointed in 2012 receivers if we don't know for sure what they will have.

This mass market avr producers are hitting new lows, they must think todays teen to mid twentys are apple ear bud morons. No one with any brains would buy these gutless avrs at these msrp prices, what are they getting for there money. Its not pure clean amp power, I bet these lowend units won't pump out more than 20 watts x 5 on the test bench..
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post #50 of 114
3/22/12 at 3:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post

This mass market avr producers are hitting new lows, they must think todays teen to mid twentys are apple ear bud morons. No one with any brains would buy these gutless avrs at these msrp prices, what are they getting for there money. Its not pure clean amp power, I bet these lowend units won't pump out more than 20 watts x 5 on the test bench..

it's because these individuals you speak of, have ask for the same computing pwr that powers up NASA, have all the apps found in their smarphones, and make their morning expresso. That's what they had to do to keep selling some units to those individuals you speak of. Leaves little $$$ for R&D on what matters, amplification.

cheers
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post #51 of 114
3/22/12 at 3:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjackkrash View Post

I posted this link earlier, but I think you'll get a kick out of it. Louis C.K. is one of my favorites.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r1CZTLk-Gk

lol, Louis is like a semi God in our household. Since I discovered him like 6,7 years ago, no other comedian makes me laugh anymore.
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post #52 of 114
3/22/12 at 10:10am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Hmmm...

The AVR product category is dominated by Japan based corporation brands including Yamaha, Sony, Onkyo, Denon/Marantz. And their financials are reported in Japanese YEN, USA sales are in $ and then converted to YEN when consolidated in their respective financials. Last year the exchange rate was 117 YEN=1US$, now it is 82 YEN=1US$, so the value of the US$ has decreased 30%...

Since retail pricing for AVRs in the USA stayed about the same for the last year, Who covered the 30%??

Ding, Ding......
The product was cheapened up significantly by decreasing power transformer size, heat sinking..

Basic 101 Economics...
Can't raise retail pricing so they need to decrease their AVR material costs..

Next question...

Just my $0.02...

Since all those companies lost money, doesn't that mean having a higher exchange rate helped them reduce their losses?

The point i'm making is the exchange rate is a two headed coin. If your currency loses value, it makes your exports cheaper. A stronger currency makes your imports cheaper. Up until about the past year or so, Japan had a trading surplus, so having a weak currency helped with their current account. Now they run deficits, so having a strong currency helps their current account.

Japan imports almost all of it's raw materials and most of it's manufacturing is done in other contries, so having a strong currency lowers their operating costs in Yen. I think much of this helps offset having to sell things at a lower price in Yen. Just because their currency appreciates 30% against USD, doesn't mean their bottom line contracts the same amount.
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post #53 of 114
3/22/12 at 10:16am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Read a book on economics and how exchange rates work, then report back.

Please enlighten me as to how exchange rates work. I'm clearly in the dark and need your expert knowledge on the subject.
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post #54 of 114
3/22/12 at 10:30am
Well look at how gas prices are set. You have 1000 gallons of premium unleaded you bought last week at 4.00/gal. Price goes up say .11 cents, your 1000 gallons just made you $110 in an instant. This is why i dont agree with Opec and the bs they push out increases in oil where gas companies get away with raising prices on inventory they bought at a cheaper price.

Although exchange rates fluctuate, they do hit a happy medium based on previously purchased inventory. Meaning it balances out in their books somewhere.

With AVRs, they make a good profit off the costs vs the profits. You push lower end receivers with the topology from the higher end avr in the series. Doesn't cost that much more money to place larger hdmi boards and discret amp channels in the same chassis. Swapping out a few chips here and there and slapping a $1500 increase in the price.

I think what we are seeing is avr manf who claim the market is hurting them are not focused on several good receivers being manf as they are flooding with the market with 9 tiers of product.

What's wrong with say 4 good receivers priced right versus 9 with $150 -200 separating them? Let's not forget to take into account other products these companies are making that aren't selling well such as cd/bluray transports, amps, speakers, etc.
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post #55 of 114
3/22/12 at 10:32am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

- yea, i didn't know that exchange rates only effected silver and gold... that's certainly an, ummm, different way of looking at things... currency traders would be shocked at this little nugget of "knowledge"...

You don't get my point at all.

Let me explain it to you in a simple manner. When a country has a strong currency, in general, their exports are more expensive and their imports are less expensive. If you run a large multinational business in a country like Japan and you have a stronger currency, what happens is your input costs go down. You pay less for raw materials and your manufacturing costs go down. This allows you to produce product at a lower cost. The downside is net revenue from selling product overseas will go down. Anything you sell in your own country or in countries whose currency hasn't depreciated relative to your currency won't be effected. The net effect in profits is much lower than the change in exchange rates.

The point I made about gold and silver is they're price is a proxy for the relative value of all currencies. Not a price for one currency relative to another. For example, almost all governments are printing money like crazy. In the US and Japan we call it quantitative easing in Europe they call it Large Scale Asset Purchases. In China it's called unsterialized currency interventions. If all of the major players are doing it in equal amounts, the the currencies remain the same value relative to each other, but the price of gold and silver will go up. That's why the prices of gold, silver, oil, etc.. have been on a tear the last few years.

So the bottom line is an appreciating currency or a depereciating currency is somewhat of a wash because you either raise both production costs and prices or you lower both by the same relative amount.
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post #56 of 114
3/22/12 at 10:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

You don't get my point at all.

Let me explain it to you in a simple manner. When a country has a strong currency, in general, their exports are more expensive and their imports are less expensive. If you run a large multinational business in a country like Japan and you have a stronger currency, what happens is your input costs go down. You pay less for raw materials and your manufacturing costs go down. This allows you to produce product at a lower cost. The downside is net revenue from selling product overseas will go down. Anything you sell in your own country or in countries whose currency hasn't depreciated relative to your currency won't be effected. The net effect in profits is much lower than the change in exchange rates.

The point I made about gold and silver is they're price is a proxy for the relative value of all currencies. Not a price for one currency relative to another. For example, almost all governments are printing money like crazy. In the US and Japan we call it quantitative easing in Europe they call it Large Scale Asset Purchases. In China it's called unsterialized currency interventions. If all of the major players are doing it in equal amounts, the the currencies remain the same value relative to each other, but the price of gold and silver will go up. That's why the prices of gold, silver, oil, etc.. have been on a tear the last few years.

So the bottom line is an appreciating currency or a depereciating currency is somewhat of a wash because you either raise both production costs and prices or you lower both by the same relative amount.

There is so much wrong here that it isn't worth picking apart piecemeal. You really should get a good book on global economics, as limiting the discussion to materials transfer cost and ignoring all of the other elements won't give you the full picture. Labor rates, cost of money, transportation, subsidies and trade practice are all components of the big picture.

A quick look at the exchange rates over the last half decade would quickly debunk your theory that domestic economic practices balance out international trade as you describe.
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post #57 of 114
3/22/12 at 11:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

Since all those companies lost money, doesn't that mean having a higher exchange rate helped them reduce their losses?

No...
They report profits in YEN so if the exchange rate goes to 83 YEN to 1US$ from 115 YEN to 1US$, it now takes more $ to increase the YEN amount.

Quote:


The point i'm making is the exchange rate is a two headed coin. If your currency loses value, it makes your exports cheaper. A stronger currency makes your imports cheaper. Up until about the past year or so, Japan had a trading surplus, so having a weak currency helped with their current account. Now they run deficits, so having a strong currency helps their current account.

Japan imports almost all of it's raw materials and most of it's manufacturing is done in other contries, so having a strong currency lowers their operating costs in Yen. I think much of this helps offset having to sell things at a lower price in Yen. Just because their currency appreciates 30% against USD, doesn't mean their bottom line contracts the same amount.

The currency rates for the Far East economies of China (RMB), Taiwan (NTD), Korea (WON) and Japan (YEN) are all relatively stable during the past 2 years to each another. However the problem is when trade with the USA economy is considered, the USA is spending significantly more $ than it takes in, just printing more low-value, paper money. This increases our deficit by a significant amount which in turn drives down the value of the US$...

Basic economics 101...
The value of the US$ will only appreciate if one of the following happens:
A. The total value of US exports exceeds that of imports
B. Actual real productivity increases significantly
C. The USA increases it backing of the US$ with real, high-value holdings such as gold
D. Our USA national budget operates within its means
E. Note that some deficit spending can be done, but this spending has to cause a higher payback then the original investment

I could go on with more explanation on this subject of exchange rates and global economics but these are readily available on the internet...
Just filter out the political rhetoric..

Just my $0.02...
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post #58 of 114
3/22/12 at 2:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

No...
They report profits in YEN so if the exchange rate goes to 83 YEN to 1US$ from 115 YEN to 1US$, it now takes more $ to increase the YEN amount.



The currency rates for the Far East economies of China (RMB), Taiwan (NTD), Korea (WON) and Japan (YEN) are all relatively stable during the past 2 years to each another. However the problem is when trade with the USA economy is considered, the USA is spending significantly more $ than it takes in, just printing more low-value, paper money. This increases our deficit by a significant amount which in turn drives down the value of the US$...

Basic economics 101...
The value of the US$ will only appreciate if one of the following happens:
A. The total value of US exports exceeds that of imports
B. Actual real productivity increases significantly
C. The USA increases it backing of the US$ with real, high-value holdings such as gold
D. Our USA national budget operates within its means
E. Note that some deficit spending can be done, but this spending has to cause a higher payback then the original investment

I could go on with more explanation on this subject of exchange rates and global economics but these are readily available on the internet...
Just filter out the political rhetoric..

Just my $0.02...

^^^
Good thing there's somebody like him/her to keep a realistic perspective on some of these subjects.
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post #59 of 114
3/22/12 at 5:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDEaston View Post

I believe onkyo, yamaha, denon, and pioneer have all released specs for some of this years models.

I have not seen any official info on the Denon xx13 series so I would love to find out where these specs are. I have heard some rumors about the 4313 but I haven't seen anything official from Denon.
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post #60 of 114
3/22/12 at 5:40pm
Nothing official from Denon yet, but I suspect we will see something in the next 3-4 weeks.
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