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2012 models are disappointing - Page 3

post #61 of 114
3/22/12 at 6:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjpearce023 View Post

I have not seen any official info on the Denon xx13 series so I would love to find out where these specs are. I have heard some rumors about the 4313 but I haven't seen anything official from Denon.

i hope there is nothing "really cool" in the 4xxx new model...

fortunately, i can't think of anything that it can have that is going to force me to sell the a100.. and it remains to be seen whether or not there will actually be a 4xxx model... although i wouldn't mind seeing an earth scorching 5xxx model come out... but i think it's unlikely we will ever see one of those... sadly, the "true flagship" has sailed...
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post #62 of 114
3/22/12 at 6:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjpearce023 View Post

I have not seen any official info on the Denon xx13 series so I would love to find out where these specs are. I have heard some rumors about the 4313 but I haven't seen anything official from Denon.

There is no AVR4313.
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post #63 of 114
3/22/12 at 8:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by onlyclave View Post

There is no AVR4313.

Yet
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post #64 of 114
3/23/12 at 2:55am
The new lower/mid level Denon XX13 models (up to the 3313CI) won't be announced until next month with the new 4X13CI (replaces 4311CI and 4810CI) to be announced this summer.
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post #65 of 114
3/23/12 at 6:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post


i hope there is nothing "really cool" in the 4xxx new model...

fortunately, i can't think of anything that it can have that is going to force me to sell the a100.. and it remains to be seen whether or not there will actually be a 4xxx model... although i wouldn't mind seeing an earth scorching 5xxx model come out... but i think it's unlikely we will ever see one of those... sadly, the "true flagship" has sailed...

I doubt there will be anything big on the new 43 series. The new audyssey lfc is not a big deal to me and neither is NeoX so I would have no problem getting a 4311 now. You should be good with the a100 unless your upgraditis comes back, and we all know how bad your upgraditis can get!
I have never been much of a flagship guy myself but it would be cool to see something higher than a 4. The highest I've been is the 33 series so I would be happy just getting up to the 43 series.
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post #66 of 114
3/23/12 at 6:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Here are a few, strictly on the audio performance side (I'm a casual video user at best, and don't know or care about it much):


-Pre-out/main-in loops, so advanced users can use the internal amps to drive speakers with outboard active crossovers.

THis.... I think they don't do it (for instance an HDMI or TOS loop) because it would essentially create a modular system and they are going out of their way by for instance restricting the models pre-amp outs even. No preamp out is a deal breaker for me but evidently not for others.
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post #67 of 114
3/23/12 at 6:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Venomous View Post

Well look at how gas prices are set. You have 1000 gallons of premium unleaded you bought last week at 4.00/gal. Price goes up say .11 cents, your 1000 gallons just made you $110 in an instant. This is why i dont agree with Opec and the bs they push out increases in oil where gas companies get away with raising prices on inventory they bought at a cheaper price.

It depends on how they do their inventory - and by law they must choose one or the other. Either you can sell based on purchase price or you can sell based on replacement price. Gas stations sell based on replacement price. The gas they sell is not based on the price it was when they bought it, but the price of the gas they need to buy to replace what they sell.

If the price of replacement gas to sell goes up, the price of what they are currently selling goes up. If the price of replacement gas to sell goes down, th eprice of what they are currently selling goes down.

They do this to ensure they have enough money to buy the replacement gas, else they go out of business.
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post #68 of 114
3/23/12 at 7:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by guisar View Post

THis.... I think they don't do it (for instance an HDMI or TOS loop) because it would essentially create a modular system and they are going out of their way by for instance restricting the models pre-amp outs even. No preamp out is a deal breaker for me but evidently not for others.

i'm not aware of any avrs that have pre-outs that are "restricted"?
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post #69 of 114
3/23/12 at 7:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

i'm not aware of any avrs that have pre-outs that are "restricted"?

Meaning very few models have them.
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post #70 of 114
3/23/12 at 7:54am
^^^

yet, that's not what you said...

however, to address your re-stated point... because in the real world, very few users need them... and they are readily available if the user DOES need them...

whereas virtually all users benefit from dsp, etc.
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post #71 of 114
3/23/12 at 7:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

i'm not aware of any avrs that have pre-outs that are "restricted"?

My preouts got too "ampy" so I had to restrict them.
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post #72 of 114
3/23/12 at 8:03am
^^^

LOL!

oh, the temptation is STRONG to take that one and run with it...
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post #73 of 114
3/23/12 at 10:10am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

No...
They report profits in YEN so if the exchange rate goes to 83 YEN to 1US$ from 115 YEN to 1US$, it now takes more $ to increase the YEN amount.



The currency rates for the Far East economies of China (RMB), Taiwan (NTD), Korea (WON) and Japan (YEN) are all relatively stable during the past 2 years to each another. However the problem is when trade with the USA economy is considered, the USA is spending significantly more $ than it takes in, just printing more low-value, paper money. This increases our deficit by a significant amount which in turn drives down the value of the US$...

Basic economics 101...
The value of the US$ will only appreciate if one of the following happens:
A. The total value of US exports exceeds that of imports
B. Actual real productivity increases significantly
C. The USA increases it backing of the US$ with real, high-value holdings such as gold
D. Our USA national budget operates within its means
E. Note that some deficit spending can be done, but this spending has to cause a higher payback then the original investment

I could go on with more explanation on this subject of exchange rates and global economics but these are readily available on the internet...
Just filter out the political rhetoric..

Just my $0.02...

First off, how can the currencise be stable relative to each other and be unstable relative to the USD when China effectively pegs their currecy to the USD?

Second, your sceanrio of what causes currencies to appreciate only exists in textbooks. In reality, central bank interventions have a far greater impact on currency values than deficits and surpluses do. How else do you think it's possible for countries to continually run deficits or surpluses year after year? If central banks didn't intervene, currency values would float to a point where deficits and surplusses would disappear.

Ayway, without currency intervention, the only factor that would influence a currencies value is the differece between net investment inflows and the current account deficit. All those other things may have an indirect long-term effect on this, but they don't have any direct effect.

I have news for you, it's not just the US printing money. Everyone is printing.
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post #74 of 114
3/23/12 at 10:17am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

There is so much wrong here that it isn't worth picking apart piecemeal.

A quick look at the exchange rates over the last half decade would quickly debunk your theory that domestic economic practices balance out international trade as you describe.

You're in way over your head here. Unless you have a specific point to make, please avoid making a broad statement like an entire post is incorrect.
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post #75 of 114
3/23/12 at 10:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nighthawk68 View Post

Yet

There never will be.
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post #76 of 114
3/23/12 at 11:04am
I think these latest generation of receivers are incredible for the price. You get quite a bit for around $500.00 - ie. etherNET/Network connectivity, Streaming, USB/iPod, InterNet, control Apps access (AirPlay, etc.,.,..), firmware updates via-Internet, Audyssey (even though it's only MultiEQ XT, or only 7.1), good power (90W per/chan for example), 3D compatible, all the latest popular sound processing (DSP) and more.

I have a new Denon AVR-2112CI and I'm totally impressed. The only thing missing I'd want are pre-OUT's, but that's not a deal closer. I have other (high-end) system.

Just go back like 10 years and compare features and price to these (comparable) current AVR products.
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post #77 of 114
3/23/12 at 11:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

You're in way over your head here. Unless you have a specific point to make, please avoid making a broad statement like an entire post is incorrect.

After seeing your economic theories and your understanding of international commerce, I'm quite sure I'm not the one in over my head.

How many people need to correct you before you give it some thought?
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post #78 of 114
3/23/12 at 11:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

First off, how can the currencise be stable relative to each other and be unstable relative to the USD when China effectively pegs their currecy to the USD?

Hmmm...
Try this link and it will illustrate the basic point...
Just input the (2) respective currencies.
http://www.x-rates.com/

Regarding China, you need to understand their culture..
For the last several years, Hong Kong has been their primary financial center and export shipping port.. The Hong Kong $ is pegged to the US$, however within China they use a difference currency RMB..
Additionally, China politically has been sheltering their exports to drive their economy but this is why certain products are actually quite expensive within China domestically compared to their exports..


Quote:
Second, your sceanrio of what causes currencies to appreciate only exists in textbooks. In reality, central bank interventions have a far greater impact on currency values than deficits and surpluses do. How else do you think it's possible for countries to continually run deficits or surpluses year after year? If central banks didn't intervene, currency values would float to a point where deficits and surplusses would disappear.

Ayway, without currency intervention, the only factor that would influence a currencies value is the differece between net investment inflows and the current account deficit. All those other things may have an indirect long-term effect on this, but they don't have any direct effect.

As I already posted previously deficit spending is not always negative it depends upon this invetsment and what additional paybacks it delivers...
Regarding countries that have real fiscal financial management, checkout Canada & Germany..

Quote:
I have news for you, it's not just the US printing money. Everyone is printing.

As posted above printing money is not bad in itself, unless the issuing country has no real collateral/assets behind their currency..
This is my last post about economics, if you have more questions for this subject PM me..
For your info I actually have (3 degrees) including a major in economics so we know what we are talking about not just blasting hot air...

Just my $0.02...
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post #79 of 114
3/23/12 at 11:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Hmmm...
Try this link and it will illustrate the basic point...
Just input the (2) respective currencies.
http://www.x-rates.com/

Regarding China, you need to understand their culture..
For the last several years, Hong Kong has been their primary financial center and export shipping port.. The Hong Kong $ is pegged to the US$, however within China they use a difference currency RMB..
Additionally, China politically has been sheltering their exports to drive their economy but this is why certain products are actually quite expensive within China domestically compared to their exports..




As I already posted previously deficit spending is not always negative it depends upon this invetsment and what additional paybacks it delivers...
Regarding countries that have real fiscal financial management, checkout Canada & Germany..



As posted above printing money is not bad in itself, unless the issuing country has no real collateral/assets behind their currency..
This is my last post about economics, if you have more questions for this subject PM me..
For your info I actually have (3 degrees) including a major in economics so we know what we are talking about not just blasting hot air...

Just my $0.02...

I suspect based on your posting history that you have both the degree and extensive practical real world experience with this. But maybe you're in over your head too.
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post #80 of 114
3/23/12 at 2:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by WestCoastD View Post

I think these latest generation of receivers are incredible for the price. You get quite a bit for around $500.00 - ie. etherNET/Network connectivity, Streaming, USB/iPod, InterNet, control Apps access (AirPlay, etc.,.,..), firmware updates via-Internet, Audyssey (even though it's only MultiEQ XT, or only 7.1), good power (90W per/chan for example), 3D compatible, all the latest popular sound processing (DSP) and more.

I have a new Denon AVR-2112CI and I'm totally impressed. The only thing missing I'd want are pre-OUT's, but that's not a deal closer. I have other (high-end) system.

Just go back like 10 years and compare features and price to these (comparable) current AVR products.

absolutely!!
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post #81 of 114
3/23/12 at 5:13pm
The truth is that there is no disappointment - this is predictable.

The AVR manufacturers release old wine in new bottles every 12 months and expect the world to collapse in adoration. In fact, they view their own business as a dying carcass - one that they refuse to invest in or progress with. This "new 2012 model" stuff is a hoax to try and fool consumers (or as one of them called it elsewhere on this forum "maintain price points".

No, nothing in the "new" product is going to boggle your mind. Get used to it. And beware that there are industry folks here masquerading as consumers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post

This mass market avr producers are hitting new lows, they must think todays teen to mid twentys are apple ear bud morons. No one with any brains would buy these gutless avrs at these msrp prices, what are they getting for there money. Its not pure clean amp power, I bet these lowend units won't pump out more than 20 watts x 5 on the test bench..

Theres someone who knows what's up. You're not lying about the clean power. Last review I read of Denon...sorry "Marantz" NR1602 said that it claimed 50 Watt per channel but in fact on the test bench was topping out at 23 clean watts per channel x 5. Beyond that was basically damaging your speakers.

No surprise then that these products cant hold their price and we get an annual charade of "new" releases of old product in a futile attempt to do so.
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post #82 of 114
3/23/12 at 5:26pm
Also, be aware that there are folks here that thinks that AVR manufacturer's should employ IT engineers, software developers as well as acoustical engineers. Develop new and innovative products every year, have 120w of clean power in 7 channels, fit in their tiny little closed entertainment center and all for under $500 while pushing a product that is for a niche market. And when there is a little bug, come on this forum and bash the product like hell. All the while some companies gives us products like Win**ws Millenium and Vista but it's ok 'cause it's a complicated affair after all.

If some of us think that the "I" company releases a brand spanking new product every 2 years that is 100% more innovative than the previous...sit down and really think about it. How much more innovative then the previous is it really? the color of the interface? a new app? the size of the case? It's marketing, not innovation.

Also, nobody cares to notice that 30 years or so ago and ,according to the folks who owned them, when amps were at their best, that's all they did is amplify. As they started incorporating new tech at the demand of consumers, well something as to give. The economical reality of today is not the same as then. There's the word "inflate" in inflation.

I for one am, quite happy with my Pio and Denon. They serve their purpose well.

Having said that, I'm done with this topic. No point of continuing this debate as it will resolve nothing, time to move on to new stuff

cheers
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post #83 of 114
3/23/12 at 6:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jproy13 View Post

Also, be aware that there are folks here that thinks that AVR manufacturer's should employ IT engineers, software developers as well as acoustical engineers. Develop new and innovative products every year, have 120w of clean power in 7 channels, fit in their tiny little closed entertainment center and all for under $500 while pushing a product that is for a niche market. And when there is a little bug, come on this forum and bash the product like hell. All the while some companies gives us products like Win**ws Millenium and Vista but it's ok 'cause it's a complicated affair after all.

If some of us think that the "I" company releases a brand spanking new product every 2 years that is 100% more innovative than the previous...sit down and really think about it. How much more innovative then the previous is it really? the color of the interface? a new app? the size of the case? It's marketing, not innovation.

Also, nobody cares to notice that 30 years or so ago and ,according to the folks who owned them, when amps were at their best, that's all they did is amplify. As they started incorporating new tech at the demand of consumers, well something as to give. The economical reality of today is not the same as then. There's the word "inflate" in inflation.

I for one am, quite happy with my Pio and Denon. They serve their purpose well.

Having said that, I'm done with this topic. No point of continuing this debate as it will resolve nothing, time to move on to new stuff

cheers

+1, very well said
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post #84 of 114
3/25/12 at 4:19pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

After seeing your economic theories and your understanding of international commerce, I'm quite sure I'm not the one in over my head.

How many people need to correct you before you give it some thought?

Anyone who suggest getting an economics book to understand how economics is working in todays world hasn't a clue.

Give me one example where someone has corrected me? Just one.
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post #85 of 114
3/25/12 at 4:28pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Regarding China, you need to understand their culture..
For the last several years, Hong Kong has been their primary financial center and export shipping port.. The Hong Kong $ is pegged to the US$, however within China they use a difference currency RMB..
Additionally, China politically has been sheltering their exports to drive their economy but this is why certain products are actually quite expensive within China domestically compared to their exports..

Seriously?
You think the CNY has not been pegged to USD?
The CNY being effectively pegged to the USD has probably been the biggest trade issue between the US and China for the past decade. Although technically it's been a slowly moving peg for the last few years.

Here's a link from your own post that shows it's in a well controlled trading band.
http://www.x-rates.com/d/CNY/USD/graph120.html
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post #86 of 114
3/26/12 at 4:38pm
Looks like I nailed it. The Onkyo 818 is going to have XT32. Very smart move by Onkyo.
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post #87 of 114
3/26/12 at 5:15pm
I agree with the OP. I'm so glad I got my Onkyo TX-NR5008 brand-new for $1600 when I did. There's virtually no difference between it and the 5009, and I doubt the 5010 will add much to the mix.
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post #88 of 114
3/26/12 at 8:54pm
Shhh, don't tell anyone but, try out Emotiva.
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post #89 of 114
3/26/12 at 9:18pm
Go for a 2009 Onkyo 3007/5007 or Denon 4311.

Unless you have to have the Yamaha Z11.
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post #90 of 114
3/27/12 at 5:45am
This seems like it would be a great thread to find a comprehensive matrix of 2012 products, yet I've only heard a few generalities by brand...and lots of economics talk...
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