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Paying too much?

post #1 of 23
3/20/12 at 7:05pm
Thread Starter 
Got this quote from a A/V company to design/install home audio/video. The design seems appropriate based upon my request:

Phase I:
Two wall mounted TV's (not included in quote)
Surround Sound from one/both TVs
Ability to put Gaming Systems on any TV
Speakers in the Kitchen
Speakers on the covered patio
ability to play music in Kitchen\\patio while using surround sound upstairs
Ability to play audio\\video content from Apple and NAS device

Phase II (TBD)
Retractable Projection screen and 3D projector

Based upon reviews, the equipment seems to be fine, but what do I know. My biggest concern is around the price. Understand I can get cheaper equipment online, but how much markup should I expect to pay? Also, the AV company is not doing any of the wiring (builder will not allow). Labor cost seems high.

Any advice is greatly appreciated. Are there savings opportunities in one area that can be spent to increase quality in another area? I've been looking at A/V reviews for 3 weeks and need to pull the trigger. My budget is $10-$12K.

Multi-Room Music
Kitchen
2 SpeakerCraft 5.5R CRS $149 $298
Patio
1 Pair SpeakerCraft CRS6 $430
Equipment Room
Integra ADM2.1 Amp $300
Control 4 Ipod Dock $299

Control
Netgear WNDR3800 Wireless Router $149
Control4 HC-800 Controllors $999
Control4 C4 Site License $499

Home Theater
2 Chief LSMU Fusion Universal Wall mounts. $199 $399
5 SpeakerCraft AIM7 Two $200 $1000
SpeakerCraft In-Ceiling brakets $10.77 $53.85
SpeakerCraft V10 sub $599
Integra DTR 30.3 reciever $800
Channel Vision 6x4 Video Matrix Switcher $1373
3 SCS 50' HDMI Cable $125 $375
5 SCS 6' HDMI $15 $75

Total Equipment $7755.83
Misc Installation Supplies $387
Labor $2182
Tax $776
Total $11105.
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post #2 of 23
3/20/12 at 7:39pm
Some of the prices seem high. If you have zero DIY skills, I would get at least two more quotes.
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post #3 of 23
3/20/12 at 7:53pm
I can't comment on the speakers and other equipment but those HDMI cables are way overpriced. Check out monoprice.com for all of your cables. Great quality but you'll be shocked by the prices.
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post #4 of 23
3/20/12 at 8:15pm
One more thing. Do not do in-ceiling speakers for your main three speakers. If you want a clean look switch to in-wall for the front three. Imaging from in-ceiling speakers will be poor. Think about it, the sound will be coming from above you, not in front of you.
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post #5 of 23
3/21/12 at 6:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

One more thing. Do not do in-ceiling speakers for your main three speakers. If you want a clean look switch to in-wall for the front three. Imaging from in-ceiling speakers will be poor. Think about it, the sound will be coming from above you, not in front of you.

Agree.

You are obviously paying some inflated prices. Some of the things on that list look to be 4-5x what you could buy it for. And if it were me I'd want to pick the speakers at the very least. But no one is going to do the work for free of course. An AV installer has no other business so they need to charge a signifigant amount off of the small amount of people using their services. Like said I'd get other qoutes but they may be very similar.

If you can do any of it yourself I would. Perhaps worst case scenario you could buy the equipment and have someone install it and save $ there? Truthfully it's better if you understand what every peice does anyways in case there's a future issue and for your own knowledge.
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post #6 of 23
3/21/12 at 9:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by khankewycz View Post

You are obviously paying some inflated prices. Some of the things on that list look to be 4-5x what you could buy it for.

Besides the $15 HDMI cable? I don't see anything in that list that is "inflated". Yes, all the equipment and speakers are priced at (likely) MSRP. He can buy inexpensive speakers, for example, but that doesn't make the Speakercraft ones "inflated". Don't expect a CI to install Monoprice speakers.

Quote:
And if it were me I'd want to pick the speakers at the very least. But no one is going to do the work for free of course.

The CI is going to use quality stuff, but also items that are sold primarily or exclusively through the dealer channel (for lots of reasons).

The labor charge may seem like a big number, but without knowing what all is being done, it doesn't look horribly out of line to me. I assume they're going to install the TVs and mounts, install all the speakers, the matrix, and do all the programming for the Control4 setup.

If the OP wants a DIY solution at DIY prices, that's fine, but be prepared for a lot of homework and trial/error to arrive at a solution.

Jeff
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post #7 of 23
3/21/12 at 10:17am
That's what CI-supplied HDMI cables cost. The CI isn't necessarily inflating the price - they're (likely) high quality, and expensive, from his distributor. As others have said, he didn't buy from Monoprice. And, you don't skimp on 50 HDMI runs. Sure, a cheaper cable might work, but it's another trip out to troubleshoot if it gives him trouble, on his dime. I'd use the same $125 50' HDMI cables.

+1, surprised at the in-ceiling LCR for the TV. Maybe he isn't experienced - or is it WAF?
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post #8 of 23
3/21/12 at 12:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neurorad View Post

That's what CI-supplied HDMI cables cost. The CI isn't necessarily inflating the price - they're (likely) high quality, and expensive, from his distributor. As others have said, he didn't buy from Monoprice. And, you don't skimp on 50 HDMI runs. Sure, a cheaper cable might work, but it's another trip out to troubleshoot if it gives him trouble, on his dime. I'd use the same $125 50' HDMI cables.

I don't want to start a conflict here but there is absolutely no sense in paying that much for an HDMI cable. I have dealt with monoprice many times and never had a problem. In addition to this I have seen about a hundred build threads with people that used them. One member even used a 100' cable and had zero problems. Buy the cables yourself and have the installer put them in but it's ridiculous to pay more for something if it isn't necessary.
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post #9 of 23
3/21/12 at 12:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaustin View Post

I don't want to start a conflict here but there is absolutely no sense in paying that much for an HDMI cable. I have dealt with monoprice many times and never had a problem. In addition to this I have seen about a hundred build threads with people that used them. One member even used a 100' cable and had zero problems. Buy the cables yourself and have the installer put them in but it's ridiculous to pay more for something if it isn't necessary.

Again, if *you* want to use a Monoprice cable and install it yourself, that's fine. And yep, it will probably work just fine. I used a BlueJeans cable for my long HDMI run, personally, but don't doubt that the less-expensive Monoprice would work, too. But the risk/reward was below my threshold of pain, since swapping the cable out later would be non-trivial.

But as others point out, the installer is RESPONSIBLE for it working or not. They're not going to risk something that would be costly for them to fix later. So they'll use a brand they trust, with service/support behind it, etc. And yes, it's going to be more expensive than Monoprice.

I have a lot less trouble with someone selling/using a $100 HDMI cable that's 30+ feet long. It's the snake oil crap for short cables that infuriates me. And charging $15 for a short HDMI cable is fine - it's in the round-off for a pro install...

Jeff
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post #10 of 23
3/21/12 at 7:28pm
One more thing. Aside from the in-ceiling mains for the home theater, skip the Speakercraft subwoofer. Have the installer run the cable to the wall and install a wall plate, and buy your own subwoofer from a company like Hsu, SVS, Ryhtmik, etc. Start a thread in the subwoofer forum and you will get plenty of recommendations. Personally, I like Hsu and SVS.

And like I said, get another quote. I am not sure what city you are in, but when I was doing my basement build I used Angie's List for some great results.
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post #11 of 23
3/21/12 at 8:41pm
Thread Starter 
Appreciate the post. I hav some DIY skills, but not the time to sit and hook all these things up. Plus, i feel a little out my league on this one. Maybe its me being overwhelmed with all the options out there.

That being said, I'm willing to pay the premium just to come home and it all works. When I saw the $100 dollar cables and the video matrix for 2x the street price I was concerned I was getting ram-rodded.

What I get from the post is that if I want to do it cheaper, do some or all of it myself. Otherwise, expect to pay these prices from a CI.
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post #12 of 23
3/22/12 at 6:31am
It's part of the cost of doing business with a professional custom installer.

Take it or leave it.

But, some of them will be a little flexible, for customer-supplied hardware. These tend to be the ones that need the business.

If they installed hardware at cost, they'd have to raise the installation rates. Mouths to feed, and all that. I wish more of them did this. It would feel less like being 'ripped off', even though it's (often) nothing of the sort.
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post #13 of 23
3/22/12 at 9:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jautor View Post

Besides the $15 HDMI cable? I don't see anything in that list that is "inflated". Yes, all the equipment and speakers are priced at (likely) MSRP. He can buy inexpensive speakers, for example, but that doesn't make the Speakercraft ones "inflated". Don't expect a CI to install Monoprice speakers.



The CI is going to use quality stuff, but also items that are sold primarily or exclusively through the dealer channel (for lots of reasons).

The labor charge may seem like a big number, but without knowing what all is being done, it doesn't look horribly out of line to me. I assume they're going to install the TVs and mounts, install all the speakers, the matrix, and do all the programming for the Control4 setup.

If the OP wants a DIY solution at DIY prices, that's fine, but be prepared for a lot of homework and trial/error to arrive at a solution.

Jeff

You are an AV Tech or CI aren't you? I can tell..

Why in the hell would anyone pay MSRP in this day in age? Even a CI.. The speakercraft speakers. They're marked up from what the OP could just buy them for himself.

What good is it hiring you to install something if I have to pay you more to buy the same part I could just buy myself and save $ on. Any CI or AV install company that does that IMO antequates itself on the equipment supplying end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaustin View Post

I don't want to start a conflict here but there is absolutely no sense in paying that much for an HDMI cable. I have dealt with monoprice many times and never had a problem. In addition to this I have seen about a hundred build threads with people that used them. One member even used a 100' cable and had zero problems. Buy the cables yourself and have the installer put them in but it's ridiculous to pay more for something if it isn't necessary.

Exactly. The OP might as well just flush 2 $100 bills down the toilet with those two cables right there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jautor View Post

Again, if *you* want to use a Monoprice cable and install it yourself, that's fine. And yep, it will probably work just fine. I used a BlueJeans cable for my long HDMI run, personally, but don't doubt that the less-expensive Monoprice would work, too. But the risk/reward was below my threshold of pain, since swapping the cable out later would be non-trivial.

But as others point out, the installer is RESPONSIBLE for it working or not. They're not going to risk something that would be costly for them to fix later. So they'll use a brand they trust, with service/support behind it, etc. And yes, it's going to be more expensive than Monoprice.

I have a lot less trouble with someone selling/using a $100 HDMI cable that's 30+ feet long. It's the snake oil crap for short cables that infuriates me. And charging $15 for a short HDMI cable is fine - it's in the round-off for a pro install...

Jeff

I bought a Blue Rigger 50' HDMI for $30 to my door and it works fine. Any responsible installer knows what companys products work and don't work. What's he never looked at cheaper options? Any one who just assumes buying a high dollar cable is better than finding a quality brand at a cheaper price obviously doesn't know **** about home theater. Perhaps the reason for inceiling fronts? He's either inflating the price of the cables and passing that onto the customer to make and extra dollar, or he's a dumbass for buying only expensive ones and not researching a cheaper option or knowing why a cheap HDMI cable works or doesn't work.

It's the "Oh you have to use a $9,000 HDMI cable to get one of good quality" ******** that spreads mis-information and allows people peddling ******** to take advantage of people.


The OP would be better off at the very least buying speakers himself. Versus paying through the nose and ending up with crap. $11,000 build with all speakercraft speakers.. He'd be better off cutting out some of the pork, and buying better quality components himself.
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post #14 of 23
3/22/12 at 9:32am
This is exactly the attitude that prevents a lot of people from using professional custom installers.

It's the design and installation expertise that needs to be paid for, not the equipment. Some equipment, especially controllers, require specialized training. But for the most part, I think CIs should just sell equipment at cost, and double the installation cost.

Speakercraft isn't crap. They are good, reliable speakers. $300/pair isn't outrageous, but similar quality could be had for cheaper. Think of it as the cost of doing business with a CI. If you don't pay a premium for the hardware, you'll pay a premium for the installation. They have a lot of overhead. Travel for training, leasing space for showroom/warehouse, van(s), insurance, 401K, health plans for their employees, tools, and screw ups. And, they aren't billing for a 10 hour day, every day, either. Only the bigger companies can fill a work day. Travel to and from the worksite is also a consideration.
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post #15 of 23
3/22/12 at 11:13am
I can understand a CI using only top shelf cables. While monoprice is good I have seen more than a handful of instance where the cable was or went bad. If a bad cable means a warranty service call, and potentially several hours chewed up to diagnose or re-fish where you aren't getting paid, then yeah, I'd do the same.

The only thing I kind of choke on is the video switch. Similar to the cable, I am sure its top shelf with good reliability, but that is an example of something which could be done cheaper. Heck, if its only two displays that need to be fed there are several receivers that have dual outputs, and he's got $800 in the budget for a receiver already.

DIY could more probably cut this by 1/3 to 1/2. I can understand being willing to pay for turn-key.
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post #16 of 23
3/22/12 at 11:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by khankewycz View Post

You are an AV Tech or CI aren't you? I can tell..

Wrong. I'm a DIY guy, but understand the needs of a business to make money.

Quote:


Why in the hell would anyone pay MSRP in this day in age? Even a CI.. The speakercraft speakers. They're marked up from what the OP could just buy them for himself.

Because in this space, something off MSRP is a "discount". If you buy an air conditioner from your HVAC guy, who also gets paid labor to install it - guess what? He makes money on the equipment, too. No difference.

Quote:


What good is it hiring you to install something if I have to pay you more to buy the same part I could just buy myself and save $ on. Any CI or AV install company that does that IMO antequates itself on the equipment supplying end.

This is no different than buying any product from any company. Goods and services.

Quote:


I bought a Blue Rigger 50' HDMI for $30 to my door and it works fine. Any responsible installer knows what companys products work and don't work. What's he never looked at cheaper options?

$100 for a 50' HDMI cable is not out of line. That's a non-trivial cable.

Quote:


It's the "Oh you have to use a $9,000 HDMI cable to get one of good quality" ******** that spreads mis-information and allows people peddling ******** to take advantage of people.

No, not the same thing at all. Snake oil == $9000 3-foot HDMI cables. Well made 50' cable, different story. And this is specific to HDMI, which was not "designed" to work at that length.

Quote:


The OP would be better off at the very least buying speakers himself. Versus paying through the nose and ending up with crap. $11,000 build with all speakercraft speakers.. He'd be better off cutting out some of the pork, and buying better quality components himself.

I wouldn't call them crap by any means. Are there "better values" for a DIY install? Almost certainly. Are you going to get a professional to come to your house, spend a few hours to install them for you and support them for $100 labor charge, no.


Jeff
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post #17 of 23
3/22/12 at 11:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jautor View Post


Wrong. I'm a DIY guy, but understand the needs of a business to make money.

Because in this space, something off MSRP is a "discount". If you buy an air conditioner from your HVAC guy, who also gets paid labor to install it - guess what? He makes money on the equipment, too. No difference.

This is no different than buying any product from any company. Goods and services.

$100 for a 50' HDMI cable is not out of line. That's a non-trivial cable.

No, not the same thing at all. Snake oil == $9000 3-foot HDMI cables. Well made 50' cable, different story. And this is specific to HDMI, which was not "designed" to work at that length.

I wouldn't call them crap by any means. Are there "better values" for a DIY install? Almost certainly. Are you going to get a professional to come to your house, spend a few hours to install them for you and support them for $100 labor charge, no.

Jeff

I am a DIY guy as well and I tend to agree with much of what you have written. $100+ for a high quality HDMI cable in a 50' length is not absurd. Blue Jeans charges $163 for their 50' premium HDMI cable.

The only thing I question on the quote is in-ceiling speakers for the mains. A credible CI should not be pushing that unless they were told to.

So I would get a few more quotes.
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post #18 of 23
3/22/12 at 11:58am
I am a quasi DIYer

I had hired a CI to help with the install of my in-wall speaker upgrade. I made sure I was educated and bought my speakers from them (negotiated at a discount off MSRP) at current market pricing. The reason I bought them from the CI is that I wanted to make sure I had a source to help me if I had any issues down the road. (More importantly, my wife wanted the project done quickly - not over several weeks as it would have taken me).

I paid a decent amount for install work.

One year later I was making some adjustments to my system and realized I had a failed tweeter in a rather expensive main speaker (MSRP $1,300) - I called and they replaced the speaker within a few days - no charge.

Priceless

CIs need to eat too and I want them around to answer the phone when I need them

Just my 2 cents from my experience
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post #19 of 23
3/22/12 at 12:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

I am a DIY guy as well and I tend to agree with much of what you have written. $100+ for a high quality HDMI cable in a 50' length is not absurd. Blue Jeans charges $163 for their 50' premium HDMI cable.

The only thing I question on the quote is in-ceiling speakers for the mains. A credible CI should not be pushing that unless they were told to.

So I would get a few more quotes.

Agreed on the in-ceilings for mains, but we don't know anything more about the room or the guy's wishes. He may have told the CI that they didn't want "speakers showing", there may be a mantel, etc. But yes, if the CI actually did that on his own without customer input, time for at least another quote...

Although a question to the CI: "would it be better to put them in-wall at display height?" may yield an answer like "most of my customers ask me to put them in the ceiling, but yeah, it'll sound better"...

Jeff
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post #20 of 23
3/22/12 at 2:17pm
The front LCR's are the AIM7's which have an aimable basket holding the woofer and tweeter. Haven't heard them installed in that situation, but they definitely won't be pointed towards the ground. Whether or not they can be aimed to your listening position is something that needs to be determined, not just assumed.
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post #21 of 23
3/22/12 at 2:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by advertguy2 View Post

The front LCR's are the AIM7's which have an aimable basket holding the woofer and tweeter. Haven't heard them installed in that situation, but they definitely won't be pointed towards the ground. Whether or not they can be aimed to your listening position is something that needs to be determined, not just assumed.

I have to think inwall speakers would be preferred. The sound will most likely still be coming from above you, and I would be curious to hear what the imaging is like.

My house came with in-ceiling speakers wired for the living room on the main level. I bought some speakers that have aimable tweeters and engineered enclosures, and too be honest, even when aimed at the listening position they sound poor. Thankfully it is mostly casual TV watching by the kids and I have my own space, but it drove me nuts having to watch movies on that system while I was finishing my basement.

I may upgrade the speakers at some point, but my wife wants a nice clean space and there is no real room for in-wall. So I may try and get some nicer in-ceiling speakers like these:
http://www.definitivetech.com/Produc...id=UIW_RCS_III
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post #22 of 23
3/22/12 at 6:38pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jautor View Post


Agreed on the in-ceilings for mains, but we don't know anything more about the room or the guy's wishes. He may have told the CI that they didn't want "speakers showing", there may be a mantel, etc. But yes, if the CI actually did that on his own without customer input, time for at least another quote...

Although a question to the CI: "would it be better to put them in-wall at display height?" may yield an answer like "most of my customers ask me to put them in the ceiling, but yeah, it'll sound better"...

Jeff

I am having a house built and the room is 18x25. It's not a dedicated home theater though, mor of a media room. I did not make any suggestions on speaker location. I actually wanted floor standing speakers. I figured with my 10-12k budget and my overall vision for the room, he chose those speakers. I was hesitant about the in-ceiling speakers at first, but after listening to a pair in the showroom, I was ok with the recommendation. But again, what do I know. . .that's why I joined this forum.

I attempted to negotiate on the price and was offered 10% off the price of the equipment. Doing a quick search on the web, I found I could save about $2500 by ordering the speakers, video matrix switch, wireless router, and cabinet. sent that in to the CI. Will see what he comes back with.
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post #23 of 23
3/23/12 at 8:50am
Both you and the CI would be all smiles if he didn't give you an itemized list of equipment.

You'd pay what you wanted, the CI would receive the budgeted amount, and you'd be happy with the design and chosen equipment (if the CI is good).

Of course, CI wants to use in-ceilings for L-C-R, so maybe he's not super experienced. Maybe he realized that you didn't care, and your wife may appreciate the less conspicuous in-ceilings.

Showroom is a good sign, though. Not a 'trunk slammer', working out of his car/home.
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