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Running 2 separate Speakers off a single output (center channel) - Page 6

post #151 of 369
^^ Thank God, and end to this silly thread is near!
post #152 of 369
I am currently using the outer two speakers of the Paradigm Millenium 20 Trio as one 4 ohm speaker (instead of two 8 ohm speakers) as my center channel. I used the Trio as my LCR until I started to build my dedicated theater room, at which point I bought two Millenium 20 towers to replace the LRs. The center was just not "there" enough for my aging ears. Since I already own the Trio, I thought I would do a free test.

Here is the Trio:



My opinion? It sounds much better. Not just because I thought it would. I was going to buy a new center and use the Trio as my rear right and left surround instead, since I needed to buy those anyway. I was surprised that it made enough of a difference that my wife said she could hear the voices better. I told her I was doing a test and to tell me if it was better or not. You can always trust a wife to tell you if your experiment failed...especially when she wants a problem fixed.

For me, the test was completely free, so nothing lost if it failed...and I was going to have to spend more money regardless of the outcome. Is the sound "pure", "correct", etc? I do not know, and honestly do not care, since it sounds better. Same reason why I bump up the db level of the surrounds after my room correction system is done with them...I like it better that way, and I am only here to please me (and the wife, of course).
post #153 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

My opinion? It sounds much better.

Careful. That kind of blasphemy don't go around here.

Quote:


...I like it better that way, and I am only here to please me (and the wife, of course).

oh no, now you've gone and done it.
post #154 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

I am currently using the outer two speakers of the Paradigm Millenium 20 Trio as one 4 ohm speaker (instead of two 8 ohm speakers) as my center channel. I used the Trio as my LCR until I started to build my dedicated theater room, at which point I bought two Millenium 20 towers to replace the LRs. The center was just not "there" enough for my aging ears. Since I already own the Trio, I thought I would do a free test.

Here is the Trio:



My opinion? It sounds much better. Not just because I thought it would. I was going to buy a new center and use the Trio as my rear right and left surround instead, since I needed to buy those anyway. I was surprised that it made enough of a difference that my wife said she could hear the voices better. I told her I was doing a test and to tell me if it was better or not. You can always trust a wife to tell you if your experiment failed...especially when she wants a problem fixed.

For me, the test was completely free, so nothing lost if it failed...and I was going to have to spend more money regardless of the outcome. Is the sound "pure", "correct", etc? I do not know, and honestly do not care, since it sounds better. Same reason why I bump up the db level of the surrounds after my room correction system is done with them...I like it better that way, and I am only here to please me (and the wife, of course).

You should get a 3 channel amp and use all 3 for your center channel speaker.
post #155 of 369
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

^^ Thank God, and end to this silly thread is near!

Oh now now......... it wasn't that bad was it?!!! I for one have learned much this last week perusing through all the info and differing opinions. Some of us maybe don't have the vast expansive knowledge that others possess and that is one of the reasons why these forums exist. I for one was uncertain if it was even possible to connect two centers, let alone whether it was sonically feasable.

Like most things in life, you had the choice whether or not to follow this thread. Nobody forced ya!
post #156 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

you should get a 3 channel amp and use all 3 for your center channel speaker. :d

Hmmmm....
post #157 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

I am currently using the outer two speakers of the Paradigm Millenium 20 Trio as one 4 ohm speaker (instead of two 8 ohm speakers) as my center channel. I used the Trio as my LCR until I started to build my dedicated theater room, at which point I bought two Millenium 20 towers to replace the LRs. The center was just not "there" enough for my aging ears. Since I already own the Trio, I thought I would do a free test.

Here is the Trio:

My opinion? It sounds much better. Not just because I thought it would. I was going to buy a new center and use the Trio as my rear right and left surround instead, since I needed to buy those anyway. I was surprised that it made enough of a difference that my wife said she could hear the voices better. I told her I was doing a test and to tell me if it was better or not. You can always trust a wife to tell you if your experiment failed...especially when she wants a problem fixed.

For me, the test was completely free, so nothing lost if it failed...and I was going to have to spend more money regardless of the outcome. Is the sound "pure", "correct", etc? I do not know, and honestly do not care, since it sounds better. Same reason why I bump up the db level of the surrounds after my room correction system is done with them...I like it better that way, and I am only here to please me (and the wife, of course).

Oh no. Here I go again. Thanks for helping me prove that experiments do succeed sometimes. Can't just take a general theory and apply it as a blanket to all scenarios. Of course you might be missing something that you don't care about but you definitely gained what you like.
post #158 of 369
Go for it torqdog. See if it helps you out!
post #159 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

Oh no. Here I go again. Thanks for helping me prove that experiments do succeed sometimes. Can't just take a general theory and apply it as a blanket to all scenarios. Of course you might be missing something that you don't care about but you definitely gained what you like.

What matters the most is how satisfying it is to YOU. Don't let dogma dictate to you how to run your equipment. If in doubt, try it out! That's half the fun. If you like the results that's all that matters regardless of what all the blow hards and forum nazis try to force feed you.
post #160 of 369
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave1027 View Post

What matters the most is how satisfying it is to YOU. Don't let dogma dictate to you how to run your equipment. If in doubt, try it out! That's half the fun. If you like the results that's all that matters regardless of what all the blow hards and forum nazis try to force feed you.

Finally....... a breath of tolerance is in the air. LOL
post #161 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave1027 View Post

What matters the most is how satisfying it is to YOU. Don't let dogma dictate to you how to run your equipment. If in doubt, try it out! That's half the fun. If you like the results that's all that matters regardless of what all the blow hards and forum nazis try to force feed you.

and where was that bridge you were gonna jump off? after all, you should "try it yourself"...

using insulting terms to disparage those who have knowledge and attempt to share it when a question is asked is hardly an endearing quality...
post #162 of 369
A lot of knowledgable folks here. Id listen to them now...cause earlier I wasted a lot of money by ignoring their advice
post #163 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post


and where was that bridge you were gonna jump off? after all, you should "try it yourself"...

using insulting terms to disparage those who have knowledge and attempt to share it when a question is asked is hardly an endearing quality...

All said and done, a real experiment proved more beneficial to the end user than theory. Case closed.
post #164 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torqdog View Post

I'm looking for feedback....... I have two 8 ohm center channel speakers of decent quality. I would like to try running them both at the same time as either one by itself just doesn't provide quite enough umphh and dialogue sometimes gets lost when they are talking quietly even when the center trim is elevated in comparison to the other channels. One of the two speakers is bi-wire/amp compatible in that it has 4 inputs with a bridge connecting both the mid and woofer. What I'm curious to know is what is the better way to accomplish my quest? Should I run two separate sets of full length speaker wires from the back of the amp to each speaker or would going the route of piggybacking off the one speaker with 4 inputs and running a short cable to the other speaker work the same. The amplifier is a Parasound that is quite capable of handling 4 ohm loads.

Thanks for any and all help as I'm kind of an electrical theory challenged individual.

I ran 2 sony sattelite spkrs (4ohms each) off the same center channel and they sounded much better than just the 1. Ended up getting a polk cs10 and I love it. Otherwise I got a polk audio csr center spkr I'll let go for $100.
post #165 of 369
I was just about to experiment with running two centers just for the fun of it, but I can't find my rca splitter. That's because in my case I run currently just one channel of a two channel amp for the center (fed by an AVR as a preamp), so the second center could simply be run off the other channel. If I could find the damn rca splitter. I know it's around here somewhere. Both speakers are same manufacturer, one down below the tv, one mounted at the wall/ceiling junction...
post #166 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave1027 View Post

What matters the most is how satisfying it is to YOU. Don't let dogma dictate to you how to run your equipment. If in doubt, try it out! That's half the fun. If you like the results that's all that matters regardless of what all the blow hards and forum nazis try to force feed you.

Hmmm...in that case, there would have been no reason to start this thread if the goal was not to get advice
post #167 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post


Hmmm...in that case, there would have been no reason to start this thread if the goal was not to get advice

True that. However, if there was a consensus in the opinions, then torqdog wouldn't have needed to do an experiment at all. But as it turns out, speaker design and placement is very much a practical exercise. You could do it on paper IF you knew all the variables and how they interact together.
post #168 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by bugtussle View Post

I was experimenting today and stacked 21's on top of 41's tweeter to tweeter. Connected in parallel and powered by two Parasound HCA-800 II amps controlled by an Onkyo TX-8050 receiver. I know the purists are going to say that's a total crap of a mismatch but, damn what a waterfall of sound. I will be picking up another set of 41's to replace the smaller set for the stack. I now know how it works. Im using two 10" subs up front for music and for movies I switch on another 10" and 12" set of subs to the rear and side. Amazing 2.4 bang for the buck. I will get around to adding some photos soon.

One for FTW.... How many ways will I have to keep proving my approach is beyond reproach?

LOL
post #169 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by chikoo View Post


One for FTW.... How many ways will I have to keep proving my approach is beyond reproach?

LOL

Always humerus to see someone who doesn't know what's going on trying to incorrectly claim some kind of technical victory.

All you have is some anecdotal responses with no measurements to validate a real improvement. And to think, for a moment, you appeared to be learning something.
post #170 of 369
Thread Starter 
Well, I finally received my matching PSB Stratus C5 center and was able to do some evaluating. Positioned in front of the TV stand at maximum height just below the TV's display area so as to best compliment the Stratus Silver mains and set in a horizontal aspect, I played various problematic soundtracks and a couple concert blurays. First thing that was apparent right off the bat was how it seemed more responsive and using the dbl meter I found that it indeed runs 2 decibels louder than the B&W it replaced. Anyway, with the system balanced my impressions were one of surprise seeing that the drivers on the PSB are much smaller than those on the B&W.

We started by watching the first 20 minutes of Flyboys which has always presented problems understanding dialog with the french accents. No problem, everything came through crystal clear and was easily understood. We then went on to Last of the Mohicans and even Wifey was surprised as we've always had to run subtitles on this one. Not this time as even with the heavy english accents scattered throughout, dialog was present and quite intelligible. Then I popped in the Peter Jackson version of King Kong. This movie has always presented problems with dialog between Driscoll and Darrow in their quieter scenes on the ship. Again, problem solved. Dialog was crisp and understandable.

The only negative I have towards this PSB center probably lies in the fact that it's smaller drivers tend to make it sound a little more shallow(is that a usable term here?) than the B&W. But just the fact that dialog has taken on a whole new level has made my experimentin enthusiasm for two centers lessen for now. I now know that all this time, my problem was probably found in the fact that I had a mismatched center. Also, I'm thinking that part of the problem could also lie in the rear port aspect of the B&W which quite possibly was causing reflection/resonance issues with the TV stand but I'm not the engineer here. All I know is that the front ported, smaller driver PSB seems to have corrected a long standing problem and I will now be searching for the Stratus C6, the bigger brother to the C5.
post #171 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torqdog View Post

First thing that was apparent right off the bat was how it seemed more responsive and using the dbl meter I found that it indeed runs 2 decibels louder than the B&W it replaced. Anyway, with the system balanced my impressions were one of surprise seeing that the drivers on the PSB are much smaller than those on the B&W.

...

I now know that all this time, my problem was probably found in the fact that I had a mismatched center. Also, I'm thinking that part of the problem could also lie in the rear port aspect of the B&W which quite possibly was causing reflection/resonance issues with the TV stand but I'm not the engineer here.

1) it's not the driver size, it's the speaker's efficiency that determines how loud it will play off of the same "wattage". driver size is "loosely equivalent" to what frequencies it will reproduce "good"...

2) bingo!

glad you are squared away...
post #172 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

True that. However, if there was a consensus in the opinions, then torqdog wouldn't have needed to do an experiment at all.

There is a consensus of opinion based on the science. You just choose not to acknowledge it or the science.
post #173 of 369
^^^

lol...

- all "opinions" are not equal... "opinions" without knowledge are merely, umm, "noise"... one often hears "everyone is entitled to an opinion"... not really... "everyone who has knowledge is entitled to an opinion" would be more correct...

- one outlier "opinion" does not change the "consensus"...

shockingly, in this case (as in many others) those in the "consensus" (i.e. those who have knowledge, rather than the outliers who were simply guessing, and choosing to disparage those with knowledge), were correct...
post #174 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

Oh no. Here I go again. Thanks for helping me prove that experiments do succeed sometimes. Can't just take a general theory and apply it as a blanket to all scenarios. Of course you might be missing something that you don't care about but you definitely gained what you like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave1027 View Post

What matters the most is how satisfying it is to YOU. Don't let dogma dictate to you how to run your equipment. If in doubt, try it out! That's half the fun. If you like the results that's all that matters regardless of what all the blow hards and forum nazis try to force feed you.

Could the center be better? Obviously so, I could buy an awesome center to replace what I currently have setup. Is the current setup better than it was before? Definately. Am I missing something? Probably, but it is not something I was getting before - or if I was, my hearing is not good enough to have noticed it, since I don't notice I am missing it.

In my case, I was either going to spend money on a new center and use this as the two rears, or buy two rears. It cost me nothing to try. If it sounds better to me, I really do not care if there are people with pencils and paper and graphs telling me how much worse it sounds...since it does not sound worse.


It is always a good idea to solicity opinions, since if everyone said "you will regret it", he would be better off not doing it. But if it is free to try and will break nothing, no reason not to do a in person test.
post #175 of 369
So, just for some clarification, according to the Paradigm website, the black bass drivers on that Milleniaâ„¢ 20 Trio are not connected to the center channel unit. They are only connected to the left and right speaker units. And the low-end spec on the whole unit is 80Hz, so who knows how low the center unit, alone, is capable of going. Perhaps this is the main reason you perceive the left and right speakers to sound better than the center unit, on its own. I suspect you would find the left or right speaker unit, alone, to also sound better than the center unit, on its own.

post #176 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

However, if there was a consensus in the opinions, then torqdog wouldn't have needed to do an experiment at all.

Opinions? Seriously. Opinions were irrelevant, here. What was important was the science. And, as you pointed out, chikoo, the practical engineering that followed that science. You see, the science is so old and well-understood in this case, that engineers have never considered equipping AVRs with two center channel amplifiers. Engineers have never considered creating soundtracks with the intention of them being reproduced with two center channel speakers. There is good reason why we use only one speaker per channel. ANY channel.

That this thread has gone on as long as it has is absurd. The initial question addresses some of the most fundamental and, yes, simple concepts that there are in acoustic science. Science, not theory, that is decades old. Measurable, documented, reproducible science.


blissful ignorance > fashionable ignorance > willful ignorance > STUPIDITY
post #177 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

There is a consensus of opinion based on the science. You just choose not to acknowledge it or the science.

I am a man of science and know enough to know that without knowing all the variables and their interaction, all that is mentioned here are opinions at best.

Science helps, but you need to build an experiment to understand how that science will apply in a given scenario. To state matter of fact that dual speakers will not work is stupidity. It will improve in some areas, degrade in some. There is always a compromise. Every speaker is a compromise for that matter. What matters is whether the person gets what he/she is after.
post #178 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

I am a man of science and know enough to know that without knowing all the variables and their interaction, all that is mentioned here are opinions at best.

Science helps, but you need to build an experiment to understand how that science will apply in a given scenario. To state matter of fact that dual speakers will not work is stupidity. It will improve in some areas, degrade in some. There is always a compromise. Every speaker is a compromise for that matter. What matters is whether the person gets what he/she is after.

You know, I formed an "opinion" of you when you first started posting here. And that "opinion" hasn't changed.
post #179 of 369
^^^

lol...

but, we should tread carefully, after all, he IS a "man of science"...
post #180 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

You know, I formed an "opinion" of you when you first started posting here. And that "opinion" hasn't changed.

no problems Siva. I hold you in high regards. I have never really cared about what others think about me
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