AVS › AVS Forum › Home Entertainment & Theater Builder › Dedicated Theater Design & Construction › Major Components Decision. Where am I going wrong?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Major Components Decision. Where am I going wrong?

post #1 of 85
Thread Starter 
I close on the new house with the HT room next week. I've come to some conclusions on the major components and would LOVE to have constructive criticism and advice before I place orders.
I have a 17' wide by 19' deep by 10' high dedicated HT room. The first row heads will be 10 to 11 ft from the screen with another row 4ft to 5ft back from that. It is pitch black in there. No ambient light. All vertical projection angles are very good but there will be some pretty steep horizontal angles that close to a screen that size. Here are my component choices...

Carada Criterion 142" BW 16:9 screen. LINK(It's large. Going with a 1.5 gain screen to be sure the 5010 will be bright enough for large 3D image with some sizeable screen edge angles from the front row. Despite the rooms use for mostly movie viewing, going with a Cinemascope screen would make the occasional 16:9 viewing "only" 90" wide without some video stretching, which I hate. So I decided on the 16:9 format. May have to utilize masking on Cinemascope films if top/bottom white bars start bothering me.)

Epson 5010 (Seems to be best overall performance/price for a 3d projector to fill a 142" screen. Is there any reason to go to the "E" option other than eliminating a HDMI connection to the projector? Is there any good reason to go with a 6010 other than Anamorphic lens mounting capabilies? Any reason to consider another projector like the Benq W7000. Seems the 5010 is brighter and performs better on any parameter that's important to me.) Mounting the projector with a Peerless PRS-UNV.

Looking very hard at the Fusion Tribute 1015 seats. Looking for LOTS of guidance/suggestions on seating. These seem to have good reviews of both the product and the seller. Seem like good seats for the money. Tribute 1015

You can find more information on my HT build in my signature link. Again, PLEASE comment! All are appreciated before I plunge into this major investment.

My wife's motto is, "If you even THINK you're going to feel the need to upgrade something in the near future, do it NOW. It will cost us less." She knows me too well.
post #2 of 85
You might get more and better informed opinions about your choice of projector on the Projector Forum.

As to screen size, the best advice I have seen is not to order the screen until you have the room built out to the point where you can project images on a temporary surface. Get the room together, move some seats in temporarily, and watch a few movies at different screen sizes. Decide how big a screen you want based on your actual experience with your actual projector in your actual room.

If your second row will be recliners, you probably need to figure on 6 feet between the rows.
post #3 of 85
Thread Starter 
Good advice on the screen size trials. I may do that. In fact one of the other members here in Houston offered some white paper to use for a temporary screen. I think I pumped them for all the information I can in the Projector forum already.
post #4 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullitt5094 View Post

Good advice on the screen size trials. I may do that. In fact one of the other members here in Houston offered some white paper to use for a temporary screen. I think I pumped them for all the information I can in the Projector forum already.

That's me! And don't forget my room is very similar in size to yours, both in dimensions and seating distances. My 2.35 screen is 136", which gives a 108" 16:9. You're welcome to test out those dimensions in person...

Jeff
post #5 of 85
Until you know exactly where the seats should go for best acoustical performance, you won't know what screen size you should use. Until you know the screen size, you won't know what projector you should use. In my opinion, asking what equipment to use is the wrong approach. At this point, no one can know. Lay out your room first. Post for all to see with dimensions and angles, THEN ask for what equipment fits those needs. I guarantee, without your layout first, your wife will not be happy with you as you WILL "upgrade" in the future. Know the specs of home theaters as recommended by SMPTE and THX, plan according to those, then determine which equipment meets those reference standards. You don't need to test anything...just know the numerical reference values. Your wife will be very happy you did! Best wishes!
post #6 of 85
My room is 17' 2" wide. My screen is a 14' (168") wide scope. Row #1 is 11', row 2 is 16'.

Bigger is always better.. Go big, or go home!
post #7 of 85
Thread Starter 
SMB, I've gone through the calculations. At 11ft view distance, SMPTE suggests an 81" diagonal 16:9 screen. Yet the majority of the members with similar viewing distances have much larger screens than that and are very happy with the results. The post above yours is a prime example with a 2.35 136" screen at similar seating distances and he's very happy. I know you're a professional but I see more members breaking those guidelines than not and loving what they have.
post #8 of 85
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jautor View Post

That's me! And don't forget my room is very similar in size to yours, both in dimensions and seating distances. My 2.35 screen is 136", which gives a 108" 16:9. You're welcome to test out those dimensions in person...

Jeff

Jeff, I would really like to do that. I'll drop you a PM. I really appreciate the offer.
post #9 of 85
Thread Starter 
And Jeff, I apparently had my Calcs wrong on the 16:9 width. Having a 108" 16:9 on the 136" Scope screen is making think that is the way to go. I think I can tolerate side bars on the occasions I watch 16:9 better than horizontal bars all of the time during movies.
post #10 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullitt5094 View Post

And Jeff, I apparently had my Calcs wrong on the 16:9 width. Having a 108" 16:9 on the 136" Scope screen is making think that is the way to go. I think I can tolerate side bars on the occasions I watch 16:9 better than horizontal bars all of the time during movies.

If you have the width and you do, I would seriously consider a scope screen. Of course that knocks the 5010 out of the running, since it does not have powered lens shift and powered zoom, nor does it have a lens memory. If you want large 2D and large 3D, then I would consider a two screen approach. Lower gain for the 2D and a higher gain drop down screen for the 3D.
Reply
Reply
post #11 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullitt5094 View Post

SMB, I've gone through the calculations. At 11ft view distance, SMPTE suggests an 81" diagonal 16:9 screen. Yet the majority of the members with similar viewing distances have much larger screens than that and are very happy with the results. The post above yours is a prime example with a 2.35 136" screen at similar seating distances and he's very happy. I know you're a professional but I see more members breaking those guidelines than not and loving what they have.

I did not say you had to follow them verbatim, but they are a good place to begin. It also makes a difference where those calculations are derived from in your room. Just as with any calculation, you need to ask yourself does that make sense.
post #12 of 85
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

If you have the width and you do, I would seriously consider a scope screen. Of course that knocks the 5010 out of the running, since it does not have powered lens shift and powered zoom, nor does it have a lens memory. If you want large 2D and large 3D, then I would consider a two screen approach. Lower gain for the 2D and a higher gain drop down screen for the 3D.

What projector(s) would you suggest with the information I've provided. I'm focusing on needing a projector with high Lumen levels to fill a relatively large screen in 3D. Plus the 5010 seems to do a really good job in 2D too. Does the 6010 offer the features I need for a Scope screen application? I appreciate the input/guidance from a Professional.
post #13 of 85
+1! Go scope! Do it once and do it right! A masked screen / scope is the best HT investment I have ever made. You never need to upgrade it!

You could do a 168" wide (14') scope and add masks. No black bars on any aspect below 2.40! My room is 17 '2" X 28' deep and 9.5 high.

Here is my 2.35 picture:


Here is my 4:3 picture:
post #14 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwightp View Post

If your second row will be recliners, you probably need to figure on 6 feet between the rows.

Actually 6 1/2 ft of riser depth is the minimum for recliners.
post #15 of 85
Thread Starter 
thebland, with your and others input in this thread, I'm starting to lean back toward the Scope format. It concerns me that it will push me away from the Lumen power 5010 that I think I need for big screen 3D. If the 5010 indeed doesn't have the features necessary for use with a Scope screen as SMB indicates, would a projector with less brightness work on a screen that big in 3D? If it were only 2D that interested me it wouldn't be important, but I would like to have a good performing 3D system. I hate to think I would need go to a two projector setup to get Scope 3D and flexibility to do 16:9 on a 2.35 screen.
Jeff has invited me over to see his HT. He has a JVC 50 but doesn't use it for 3D, if I recall correctly. The 50 is a 1300ansi so I'm very curious as to what it looks like on the same exact screen I'm considering. Having him allow me to experience the screen I want with a great set-up is really a great stroke of luck for my analysis. Hopefully my wife will want our theater to look like his too! Ours is sorta "dull" in the "trim" category compared to his right now.
post #16 of 85
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post

Actually 6 1/2 ft of riser depth is the minimum for recliners.

I will have a row of HT Seating for the front row on the lower level but the wife wants to put a couch and tables on the riser for the second row. So that will be movable. We'll put it where it works best. I'll keep the 6.5ft dimension in mind as I sort things out.

Thanks!
post #17 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullitt5094 View Post

Hopefully my wife will want our theater to look like his too! Ours is sorta "dull" in the "trim" category compared to his right now.

I will require a signed waiver stating I am not responsible for any significant impact to your planned budget...
post #18 of 85
Thread Starter 
Compared to what the rest of the house cost, anything she comes up with will be minor.
post #19 of 85
Personally, I would not use the lumens value. This is a very arbitrary number when it comes to what your eyes actually see given screen type, distance, size, etc. You'll want to know what the ftL is off the screen to your eyes. If you have the ability, measure what the value is off your friend's screen. That's the value you really want to know.
post #20 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

My room is 17' 2" wide. My screen is a 14' (168") wide scope. Row #1 is 11', row 2 is 16'.

Bigger is always better.. Go big, or go home!

I thought about you and Art when we were working on my screen size. You and Art both have DE designed theaters, and if I'm not mistaken you both swapped out out your originally designed screen size for larger ones, right?

I tested on a friends 10' wide scope screen and found 12' back was about as large as I was comfortable with. But I wonder if FOV preference is constant regardless of distance? If people could tolerate or even prefer a wider FOV as the physical distance increased, it might explain why some larger HT owners have really big screens. But then SMPTE recommendations are intended for commercial movie theaters which are larger than any HT. Maybe SMPTE is based on 1.85:1 and people prefer slightly larger for scope?
post #21 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullitt5094 View Post

Compared to what the rest of the house cost, anything she comes up with will be minor.

Did you compare prices on the arched windows vs square? I don't want to derail your thread, but I would be interested if you could post a % premium for arched vs square. It's hard to get prices on anything (which is why I always try to share, I figure other people are wondering too).
post #22 of 85
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabident View Post

Did you compare prices on the arched windows vs square? I don't want to derail your thread, but I would be interested if you could post a % premium for arched vs square. It's hard to get prices on anything (which is why I always try to share, I figure other people are wondering too).

The arched windows are part of the base architecture of the house. Square wasn't an option so I don't have any information as to the price difference. Sorry.
post #23 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabident View Post

Did you compare prices on the arched windows vs square?

If vinyl windows, the upcharge isn't huge. The vinyl extrusion is bent by slipping a flexible plastic former into the voids, then heating with hot oil and bending to shape by hand.

If clad wood windows, Cha Ching$$!!.
The aluminum cladding is bent on a CNC rolling mill with specially cut dies for the extrusion profile. The wood parts are made from small blocks of wood joined together into a rough arch. Then that is bandsawn to the true arch and moulded into the final shape. Lots of hand work and lots of dedicated (expensive) tooling. Some manufacturers use laminated stock for the arch. The machine that glues up the lamination, if CNC and equipped with an RF (microwave) glue drying system, runs about $300,000.

for a typical 3wx5h window
Rectangular vinyl $150
Arched vinyl $250
Rectangular clad wood $700
Arched clad wood $1500
post #24 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullitt5094 View Post

Compared to what the rest of the house cost, anything she comes up with will be minor.

Looks like a very nice house. Congrats. Have you thought about an anamorphic lens so you can stick with the Epson?
post #25 of 85
I would look into CIA ie. constant area as a viable format before making a final decision. Would concur that scope is truly the preferred format, but due to my passion for college football, I find CIH limiting with 1.78 screen size. IMHO, CIA or 4 way masking is the only solution.

Another point, I find in my older age my eyesight has been floundering...........three years ago I was eagle eyed yet currently I find myself losing my visual acurity.........quite a frustrating prospect.

Beside the point, my eyesight is changing and I'm finding I want to get closer to movie screens. Have found 1.0-1.25 the ideal ratio for seating distance while maintaining focus without the use of glasses, which by the way, I DETEST WEARING GLASSES!!

Due to my infatuation with numbers, research, and collecting empirical data.........my prescribed best practice was taking a 100 ft measuring tape to the local small cinema attempting to find the desired seating distance solution for myself. Granted, many might think these actions are eccentric...........but I received the information required!

Just food for thought....................
post #26 of 85
Thread Starter 
As demonstrated by petew's post, I am constantly amazed as to the breadth of knowledge on this site. Even an expert on window construction. Pretty cool.

Thanks Jvoth, we love the house. Again, I'm new to this. All an Anamorphic lens will do for the 5010 is stretch a 16:9 into a Scope format, right? If so, I really hate that. Also it would necessitate a 6010 purchase vs the 5010 which isn't necessarily a deal killer. The 6010 accepts the Anamorphic lens. What I would prefer is to have the screen filled on Scope inputs and white bars on the side with a 16:9 input. Would an Anamorphic lens do that?

doublewing, I've actually done some analysis of my movie seating preferences sans the tape measure. I know "scaling" the preferences isn't always accurate but I'm pretty sure 11ft from a 10ft wide screen is going to be close to where I want to be. In fact, my wife seems to want to sit closer than that 1:1 ratio. And I do believe/agree masking of some type is in my future.

Bottom line is coming to this: what projector/lens do I need to Illuminate a 136" 1.5 gain Scope Screen that will be bright enough for 3D and allow both full screen Scope and side masked 16:9 modes. Seating distances will have to be worked-out, but despite the SMPTE recommendations just don't make sense, at least for me and apparently quite a few others. But fortunately I had the riser in the room built separately from the floor frame, so it can be moved back if necessary for a front row distance adjustment.

PLEASE KEEP THE INPUT COMING!! Especially on the projector/lens selection. Should I push this to the Projector area?
post #27 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullitt5094 View Post

As demonstrated by petew's post, I am constantly amazed as to the breadth of knowledge on this site. Even an expert on window construction. Pretty cool.

Thanks Jvoth, we love the house. Again, I'm new to this. All an Anamorphic lens will do for the 5010 is stretch a 16:9 into a Scope format, right? If so, I really hate that. Also it would necessitate a 6010 purchase vs the 5010 which isn't necessarily a deal killer. The 6010 accepts the Anamorphic lens. What I would prefer is to have the screen filled on Scope inputs and white bars on the side with a 16:9 input. Would an Anamorphic lens do that?


PLEASE KEEP THE INPUT COMING!! Especially on the projector/lens selection. Should I push this to the Projector area?

The 5010 does not have the anamorphic zoom setting but I know the Oppo blu-ray players do so if you get yourself an Oppo, which is highly recommended, then you should be okay to use the anamorphic lens with a 5010. I think I'm right on that but I could be wrong so please someone correct me if needed.

To answer you're question on the function of the anamorphic lens itself, you would or should purchase the a-lens with a motorized sled so that it could slide in front of and away from the projector lens as needed. When you are watching a movie that has a 2.4 aspect ratio, you press a button on a remote and slide the lens in place to vertically stretch the picture to fill the scope format screen. When watching HDTV you press a button and slide the lens out of place. If you want a simpler and cheaper way to do this, then you should purchase a JVC RS-45 or the Panasonic AE7000. Those have a motorized projector lens and lens memory. With those units, you press a button and the projector will automatically set its lens to fill the scope screen and shrink back down the the 16:9 screen as you need it. The only downside is that you do lose some resolution. I'm not sure how much but I know it is no longer a 1080P picture when you zoom to a 2.4 scope format, only with the 16:9 format. The a-lens is the preferred method for the higher end theaters as opposed to zooming since you will not lose any resolution. It will still be a 1080P signal whether it is 2.4 or 16:9. AVS has an a-lens for sale and I think for the fully loaded motorized option, it will run you around $4000. That is extremely cheap compared to some lenses that run several thousand dollars more. If what you want is a scope screen, a bright projector, and you don't want to spend $7000 for a projector and an a-lens, then I would recommend the Panasonic. I own a JVC RS-45 and I don't know think it will be bright enough if you plan on watching alot of 3-D. Hope this helps and I hope I'm somewhat accurate with my description of the a-lens vs. zooming. Again, somebody correct me if I'm wrong.
post #28 of 85
Just wanted to add my input. I have the 5010 on a somewhat constant area setup. I have a 135" diagonal 16:9 image and a 10.5' wide 2.4 on a 1.2 gain AT screen. The image is bright enough in 3D at those sizes in a black room/batcave. I have my PJ hooked up to my HTPC so I can position 2.4:1 material at the top of the screen. I can then zoom out and I am done except for masking which I don't have yet....although the 5010 has really good black levels.

I'm not sure why people are saying the 5010 can't do scope....it can if you are willing to do some manual adjustment to the position of the screen. I will say that you probably DON'T want to be messing with the lens shift as it is really hokey. It may only take 30 seconds, but it is annoying. The zoom works great though if you have a way to adjust the vertical position of 2.4 material.

JVC might be better at distances less than one screen width as the 5010 has some RBE at that distance. Every PJ has trade offs.
post #29 of 85
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the input guys. That's good information. I'm really bummed it will take a $4000 lens to get full resolution on a Scope screen with a $3000 projector. Am I understanding correctly that the 5010 will not give full resolution on a Scope screen without an Anamorphic lens in front of it? Sort of mushy on that between the last two posts.
post #30 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullitt5094 View Post

Thanks for the input guys. That's good information. I'm really bummed it will take a $4000 lens to get full resolution on a Scope screen with a $3000 projector. Am I understanding correctly that the 5010 will not give full resolution on a Scope screen without an Anamorphic lens in front of it? Sort of mushy on that between the last two posts.

Not sure how many lines of resolution you lose, but no you will not get a true 1080p picture with zooming. If the Epson is what you're definitely wanting to get then perhaps the 16:9 screen with the Carada masking will be your best bet. If the scope look is what you're after, then you could just leave the masks deployed even when the system is not in use.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
AVS › AVS Forum › Home Entertainment & Theater Builder › Dedicated Theater Design & Construction › Major Components Decision. Where am I going wrong?