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For those who recommend turning sharpness to 0 - Page 2

post #31 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone View Post

If turning the sharpness control to a setting that doesn't induce haloing or ringing, but is still "ON", looks best to the users eye at their regular viewing distance, then that seems like it is the correct setting to me.

If it is still "ON", then some level of haloing or ringing will always be present (even if it is very mild). So, what you suggest isn't possible. There is no benefit to setting it in the "ON" position, so why anyone would want to do that is beyond me.
post #32 of 62
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

If it is still "ON", then some level of haloing or ringing will always be present (even if it is very mild). So, what you suggest isn't possible. There is no benefit to setting it in the "ON" position, so why anyone would want to do that is beyond me.

I was referring to 0 being OFF, and any other setting (1-100) being "ON". If for example, any setting below say 10 cause a soft/blurry image and anything above say 20 causes visible ringing, than any setting between 10 and 20 would be correct.
post #33 of 62
From the THX certification training manual:

Methodology - Determine where the optimal setting for Sharpness on a TV. It is not always at "0".
- This is an oxymoron. High sharpness settings result in less visible detail... while optimal sharpness settings result in softer images at first, but are more detailed


Some Sharpness controls are placebos. Some manufacturers include a softening feature at lower than optimal settings. I asked which ones. Answer: Sharp, LG, and Pioneer.
post #34 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone View Post

I was referring to 0 being OFF, and any other setting (1-100) being "ON". If for example, any setting below say 10 cause a soft/blurry image and anything above say 20 causes visible ringing, than any setting between 10 and 20 would be correct.

Doug mentioned:

"The issue is that "0" is not always OFF. Sometimes 0 defocuses the image, sometimes 0 does not disable all the sharpening.

The only way to find "OFF" is to use a sharpness evaluation pattern."

Based on that, the correct setting would be 20 since it is the highest setting that doesn't show any signs of ringing and it would be considered "OFF".

So, I don't see the point of your post.
post #35 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone View Post

I am only an amateur enthusiast, and all due respect to you, but this argument doesn't make a lot of sense to me. This argument to me is the same as someone saying that "Audyssey XT should never be used, because that +7db @ 120hz and -5db @ 50hz to fix room modes, were never in the original signal, and is nothing more than distortion".

If turning the sharpness control to a setting that doesn't induce haloing or ringing, but is still "ON", looks best to the users eye at their regular viewing distance, then that seems like it is the correct setting to me.

Video and audio do have some analogous equivalents, but by no means are they equivalent from every perspective. In fundamental video industry terms, calibration's goal is image fidelity not individual viewer preference:

'Display Calibration: Root Fundamentals'
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1021933

The sharpness control should not be considered as a means to compensate for poor viewing environment conditions, as audio equalization might be used to compensate for listening room problems.
post #36 of 62
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

Doug mentioned:

So, I don't see the point of your post.


The point of my post was to have a discussion.
post #37 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone View Post

The point of my post was to have a discussion.

Well, in post #30 it seemed like you were disagreeing with what Doug said but afterwards when I replied to your post it became obvious what you and Doug were saying was in agreement. Which is why I didn't understand the point you were trying to make.
post #38 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone View Post

The point of my post was to have a discussion.

Oh. . . rest assured, it can only get better from here.
post #39 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone View Post

I am only an amateur enthusiast, and all due respect to you, but this argument doesn't make a lot of sense to me. This argument to me is the same as someone saying that "Audyssey XT should never be used, because that +7db @ 120hz and -5db @ 50hz to fix room modes, were never in the original signal, and is nothing more than distortion".

Your analogy doesn't hold very well since Audyssey is actually correcting for distortion that is already present - caused by the room itself. It is simply altering the signal to compensate for/eliminate the distortion at the listening position. We do the same thing with video all the time. However, in the case of the sharpness control, it does not compensate for any distortion - it only adds distortion. There is no reason for such a control to exist on our displays.

Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone View Post

If turning the sharpness control to a setting that doesn't induce haloing or ringing, but is still "ON", looks best to the users eye at their regular viewing distance, then that seems like it is the correct setting to me.

The problem with this statement is that the ringing IS the "sharpness." Essentially the sharpness control looks for contrast boundaries, and then alters the edges - making the border of the darker side darker and the border of the lighter side lighter - to increase our perceived contrast across that border. The effect is two-fold: it creates ringing because that's what creates the "sharpness" effect in the first place, but the by-product can be the appearance of a sharper image since the boundaries can appear to be more defined to our visual system. By definition, one MUST be able to see ringing to see the effects of the sharpness control.
post #40 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone View Post

If turning the sharpness control to a setting that doesn't induce haloing or ringing, but is still "ON", looks best to the users eye at their regular viewing distance, then that seems like it is the correct setting to me.

If the sharpness control is producing no halos or ringing and if it is not softening the image... the sharpening control is OFF... period. So I don't understand your lack of understanding. It doesn't matter if the SETTING for the sharpness control is 0 or -3 or 1,280 or pi or infinity... if it is not adding artifacts to the image and it is not softening the image, it is OFF. And that's where it should be.

Adding distortion to anything is... well, distortion.

Your Audyssey example... it's logically "off" because Audyssey is just trying to fix the "distortion" the room adds to the sound (or distortion of the original sound that comes from poor placement of speakers or subwoofer). The sound of your room was not part of the original soundtrack... Audyssey is simply trying to undo the distortion your room wants to do so that what you hear is closer to what was recorded. The Sharpness control is NOTHING like that. It takes an undistorted image and distorts it. The sharpness control is not trying to undistort the image because your room sucks resolution out of the image somehow.
post #41 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone View Post

I was referring to 0 being OFF, and any other setting (1-100) being "ON". If for example, any setting below say 10 cause a soft/blurry image and anything above say 20 causes visible ringing, than any setting between 10 and 20 would be correct.

That could happen... I don't think I've ever seen it before, but it's possible. Just depends on how odd the controls behaviour is. If I found a situation like that, I'd probably pick 15 for the "OFF" setting and leave it there.

What's amazing to me is that when TVs transitioned from analog to digital... companies actually had to pay some engineer or engineers how to figure out a variable digital filter that would duplicate distortion introduced by the old analog sharpness control. What a waste of time and resources!!!!!

And whoever mentioned that cranking up the sharpness control doesn't even make the picture sharper or more detailed, it actually makes images LESS detailed... that's right! Look at a head of hair for example... let's say there are 10,000 individual hairs in a perfect, un-sharpened image. You crank up sharpness, now you have 10,000 hairs plus 20,000 thin white borders... one white border along each edge of each hair! So those 20,000 out of place distortions turn that head of hair into a screwed up mess.
post #42 of 62
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

or pi

You almost owed me a new lap top, but ultimately I was able to keep my hot coffee in my mouth! I totally agree with what you both are saying, and I think where we misunderstand each other, is to me, I consider anything above "0" to be ON, and you guys consider any setting that doesn't add ringing to be OFF, even if that setting is um, pi.
post #43 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone View Post

You almost owed me a new lap top, but ultimately I was able to keep my hot coffee in my mouth! I totally agree with what you both are saying, and I think where we misunderstand each other, is to me, I consider anything above "0" to be ON, and you guys consider any setting that doesn't add ringing to be OFF, even if that setting is um, pi.

Yes, the actual number of the setting can be anything within the range on the control like 0 to 100 on most sets. On some sets the control is always OFF and any setting can be used without ringing or softening the image. On other sets the control can be set to zero since the image never gets softer. On other sets, the OFF position is somewhere between min and max, typically closer to min.

Also, if the correct setting (OFF) is 10 to 20, any value in that range can be used.
post #44 of 62
And, of course, for Sharpness controls that have a mid zero point (+ & -), it can be used when owners may be watching older DVDs that may be grainy or have other noise artifacts. Sort of a variable noise filter. You can then impart or restore a Film Noir look to the movie and enjoy it as intended in the movie houses of old.

It's your TV and your Sharpness control folks!
post #45 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phase700B View Post

I have DVE, AVS HD709, AVIA, and now Disney WOW. I;ve actually found the later to work the best since it has both fine lines and pregressively smaller black lettering against a light gray background. Very easy to tell any enhancement. And the variance on two LCD panels I have can be as much as + or- 6 clicks when using the other discs mentioned. . . .

That is interesting about the Disney WOW using text to help find the sweet spot for sharpening. Looks like I'm going to have to get one and see for myself. I also have the S&M disc.

Small text in the background of all sorts of material is what I've looked at a lot to try to figure out what the best sharpness setting is. If small print is more readable, then should I consider that to be a better sharpness setting? On the S&M disc demo video there are some scenes where trees are visible at the top of background mountains. There are sharpness settings on my TV below which these trees are blurred. Still, I think looking at fine print would be ideal because you can read what it says - similar to a vision test.

What if the sharpness setting that makes small print more legible also creates a faint halo when test lines are viewed up close to the screen but not when viewed from normal viewing distance?

Few topics generate as much heat in these forums as sharpness settings.
post #46 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

That is interesting about the Disney WOW using text to help find the sweet spot for sharpening. Looks like I'm going to have to get one and see for myself. I also have the S&M disc.

Small text in the background of all sorts of material is what I've looked at a lot to try to figure out what the best sharpness setting is. If small print is more readable, then should I consider that to be a better sharpness setting? On the S&M disc demo video there are some scenes where trees are visible at the top of background mountains. There are sharpness settings on my TV below which these trees are blurred. Still, I think looking at fine print would be ideal because you can read what it says - similar to a vision test.

What if the sharpness setting that makes small print more legible also creates a faint halo when test lines are viewed up close to the screen but not when viewed from normal viewing distance?

Few topics generate as much heat in these forums as sharpness settings.

The nice thing about the Disney WOW sharpness pattern is there is a set of incrementally smaller letters as well as a fine line pattern so you can look at both while setting Sharpness. I find this much better than DVE, the AVS 709 disc, and others as far as setting sharpness.
post #47 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phase700B View Post

The nice thing about the Disney WOW sharpness pattern is there is a set of incrementally smaller letters as well as a fine line pattern so you can look at both while setting Sharpness. I find this much better than DVE, the AVS 709 disc, and others as far as setting sharpness.

Well mine is coming from Amazon in a couple of days. What distance do you do your viewing from? Have you found a difference in setting up close vs from normal viewing distance with this WOW disc?
post #48 of 62
I usually set sharpness from about 3 feet away from the TV. I feel that it will then approximate things like text and objects when viewed from my usually viewing distance of about 7 feet. With the multiple lines of text it is easy to see at that distance. My sharpness control goes + and - so I also do not want to introduce any softening to the edges of images or text.

BTW. . . how are things up there in the north? I've mowed the lawn 3 times so far since the middle of March! (near Madison)
post #49 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phase700B View Post

I usually set sharpness from about 3 feet away from the TV. I feel that it will then approximate things like text and objects when viewed from my usually viewing distance of about 7 feet. With the multiple lines of text it is easy to see at that distance. My sharpness control goes + and - so I also do not want to introduce any softening to the edges of images or text.

BTW. . . how are things up there in the north? I've mowed the lawn 3 times so far since the middle of March! (near Madison)

Just because it has 0 in the middle and - and + settings doesn't mean it will ever necessarily soften the image... some Sharpness controls never soften the image no matter where they are set... even when there are - and + setting options. The - and + are completely arbitrary... you could just as easily label the control 0-100 and have the default midpoint setting at 50 instead of 0.

Some Sharpness controls do nothing no matter where you set them because the engineers essentilly never programmed the sharpness control to do anything... on purpose.

That's why in the first poit I made in this forum, I said the correct setting for sharpness is OFF... but Off is just about impossible to find without a test pattern (gray background with black lines of different thicknesses). You need the gray background to see the white halos "sharpening" creates, and you need many thicknesses of black lines because the Sharpness control may not stop affecting all the thicknesses of black lines at the same time. So you want to find the setting where NONE of the black lines have white halos around them.

The test pattern also needs to have horizontal and vertical lines because some sharpening controls only control one of the two... some displays and projectors have a SECOND control somewhere else that controls the white halos around the lines in the other direction, but it will be labeled something other than Sharpness.

That's why you use a pattern, and why you have to look for both horizontal and vertical lines.
post #50 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

With AVSHD it is sometimes a little difficult to find that exact point where sharpening begins using the Sharpness & Overscan pattern with the medium gray background. I'm unsure if the following works on all displays as I've only recently started observing. Pull up the Black Clipping pattern in a dark environment. Turn up the Sharpness control. When haloing begins to occur it stands out like a sore thumb.

Edit: Today on one of my personal TVs I reduced Sharpness from 20 (out 100) to 6 as a result.

I have tried this on an Samsung LCD LED and an older Hitachi Plasma (2008) and it works fantastic. No guess work.. raise it, line shows up in the blackness.. turn it down and the line is gone, DONE! I would guess this won't work with DLP projectors but for flat screens it is worth trying! I was up around 48 with the sharpness pattern on the plasma and 38 with the clipping pattern and no longer guessing. I think I will start a thread for this and see if we could get folks to test this on as many different displays as possible.
post #51 of 62
Please post the link here if you do.
post #52 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

Just because it has 0 in the middle and - and + settings doesn't mean it will ever necessarily soften the image... some Sharpness controls never soften the image no matter where they are set... even when there are - and + setting options. The - and + are completely arbitrary... you could just as easily label the control 0-100 and have the default midpoint setting at 50 instead of 0.



That's why in the first poit I made in this forum, I said the correct setting for sharpness is OFF... but Off is just about impossible to find without a test pattern (gray background with black lines of different thicknesses). You need the gray background to see the white halos "sharpening" creates, and you need many thicknesses of black lines because the Sharpness control may not stop affecting all the thicknesses of black lines at the same time. So you want to find the setting where NONE of the black lines have white halos around them.

The test pattern also needs to have horizontal and vertical lines because some sharpening controls only control one of the two... some displays and projectors have a SECOND control somewhere else that controls the white halos around the lines in the other direction, but it will be labeled something other than Sharpness.

That's why you use a pattern, and why you have to look for both horizontal and vertical lines.

First. . . I am not disputing what you are saying. We get the OFF thing.

If you take a look at the Disney WOW pattern it has both text and horizontal and vertical lines . . . . against a gray back ground. Exactly what you speak of. . . which is why I like it.

My LG has no OFF position. . . it starts at a center point of 50 as you may know. . . which has already been covered numerous times regarding this topic. However, as you say, each TV is different and difficult to determine where this OFF Point you describe is. Which is why I like the Disney WOW disc sharpness pattern. When I use AVS HD709, DVE, AVIA, etc. and cross checking them I get differing results. . . in other words what looks "right" on one disc pattern shows up as either softening or shows some haloing on another.

The Disney WOW disc having both lines and text of incrementally smaller lines plus fine horizontal and vertical line patterns against a gray background. Exactly what you mention . .. which is why I feel it is ideal and works best from the previous sources I've used.

I'm not disputing what you are saying, yes, the OFF point is what is desired. I just find that difficult to determine for all the reasons you and I have just stated. And the Disney WOW patterns give me the best results so far as Media Assisted Discs go.

Summarizing. . . we get it. .. . . OFF is where it should be. . .. but that can only be determined by the user on the particular display or TV they are viewing.
post #53 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

I have tried this on an Samsung LCD LED and an older Hitachi Plasma (2008) and it works fantastic. No guess work.. raise it, line shows up in the blackness.. turn it down and the line is gone, DONE! I would guess this won't work with DLP projectors but for flat screens it is worth trying! I was up around 48 with the sharpness pattern on the plasma and 38 with the clipping pattern and no longer guessing. I think I will start a thread for this and see if we could get folks to test this on as many different displays as possible.

I tried tried this on my Mitusbishi 46" LCD and it seems to work. On my LG 42LD550 I do not think it works correctly since it has both horizontal and vertical sharpness in the Expert Picture modes. I'm sticking with the Disney WOW pattern which, so far, seems to be a good representation of actual program material. When I compared it on my LG to the method you describe I get noticeable blurry edges on both text and lines against a gray background.

I am not so sure the black clipping will work on all TVs since, even with all processing off, there may be designs in some TV circuitry that affect what you see at such very low IREs.
post #54 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phase700B View Post

I tried tried this on my Mitusbishi 46" LCD and it seems to work. On my LG 42LD550 I do not think it works correctly since it has both horizontal and vertical sharpness in the Expert Picture modes. I'm sticking with the Disney WOW pattern which, so far, seems to be a good representation of actual program material. When I compared it on my LG to the method you describe I get noticeable blurry edges on both text and lines against a gray background.

I am not so sure the black clipping will work on all TVs since, even with all processing off, there may be designs in some TV circuitry that affect what you see at such very low IREs.

I agree, it probably won't work on everything. Since the Hitachi clips BTB I didn't think it would work but there was a line at 16 which showed up. Will try it on the DLP projector tonight just for fun. Think this warrants a new thread to try and collect a list of where it does and does not work? For those with just the AVS disk, it would be very helpful if their set was in the list of "Works".
post #55 of 62
Is there another name for "black clipping pattern? "
post #56 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

Is there another name for "black clipping pattern? "

on the AVS disk it is the first pattern in the basic pattern chapter BTB bars up with 16 marked as reference.
post #57 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

With AVSHD it is sometimes a little difficult to find that exact point where sharpening begins using the Sharpness & Overscan pattern with the medium gray background. I'm unsure if the following works on all displays as I've only recently started observing. Pull up the Black Clipping pattern in a dark environment. Turn up the Sharpness control. When haloing begins to occur it stands out like a sore thumb.

Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

I would guess this won't work with DLP projectors but for flat screens it is worth trying!

Mitsubishi Laser DLP (L75-A94) - Both ADV/ISF modes have placebo Sharpness controls but in the other modes it works as does using the AVSHD black clipping pattern.
post #58 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

Is there another name for "black clipping pattern? "

If I'm not mistaken, I believe that's called a "Pluge Pattern".
post #59 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by goku14139268520 View Post

If I'm not mistaken, I believe that's called a "Pluge Pattern".

Ah yes that's what I know it by. I thought maybe he was referring to the near black windows in the ColorHCFR section.
Thanks
post #60 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

Ah yes that's what I know it by. I thought maybe he was referring to the near black windows in the ColorHCFR section.
Thanks

No problem.
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