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Brainstorm (1983) - Page 3

post #61 of 106
Woodstock and Biutiful were presented the same way on BD. Nobody freaked out.
post #62 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanboyz View Post

Warner didn't use the 70mm for Hamlet either. Most BDs are (and will be) just the HD transfer made for the DVD release.

Most disappointing pqs are, I suspect anyway, from a old DVD master.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanboyz View Post

Woodstock and Biutiful were presented the same way on BD. Nobody freaked out.

Woodstock in theaters went into a' immerse' mode? I was under the impression it just had different mating formats in theaters.
post #63 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by iBob57 View Post

I looked at the caps posted on DVDBeaver and am now stoked for this disc. I understand this is not a format that will appeal to most people watching on "TV" size screens, but it is historically accurate. Doug Trumbull was all about the immersive visual experience having worked a great deal in large format VFX. Brainstorm was conceived and shot for the cinema screen. The entire point of the visual formatting was to make the narrative sections of the film as mundane as possible to then give the "brainstorm" sequences the greatest visual and audible impact possible.
Obviously the full impact of this film will be greatly diminished on home video, but it should appeal to film buffs for it's attempt at accuracy to the original presentation. Then there are the folks with large screen front projection. Since the transfer is constant height, the switch from 1.66 windowboxed to 2.35:1 letterboxed should still be fairly dramatic on screen sizes above 100" if the seating distance is not too far back. The added effect of mono sound to active surrounds will help the illusion quite a bit. One will not necessarily need a CIH screen to get a good idea of the desired effect.
Having not seen this film in quite a while, the opportunity to now see in HD on my 106" screen for the first time is just as exciting to me as looking forward to getting The Avengers on Blu-ray in a few months.

It is really not, its not even OAR it is close for Warner but it's just not
post #64 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by dvdmike007 View Post

It is really not, its not even OAR it is close for Warner but it's just not

Perhaps a semantical argument. This presentation would be accurate for 35mm scope shows, but yes, the AR is slightly different than the original 70mm presentation. We should keep in mind the majority of people that saw this film in theaters would have seen 35mm scope prints.

The bottom line is, the film was intended to have part shown in a relatively narrow AR with mono sound with other sequences opening horizontally wider with multichannel sound. The transfer on the new Blu-ray (appears) to be just that.
post #65 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterTHX View Post

So they used a 35MM source, not the native 70MM source (2.20 to 1)...bummer.

The movie was shot with both 35mm and 65mm. The question I have is whether the final cut was conformed to 35mm or 65mm. Were the 70mm release prints blow-ups from 35?
post #66 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

The movie was shot with both 35mm and 65mm. The question I have is whether the final cut was conformed to 35mm or 65mm. Were the 70mm release prints blow-ups from 35?

As far as I remember from press when it was released, the 35mm portions were blown up to 65mm to be combined with the SuperPanavision 65mm footage to emphasize the difference and give a super-clarity to the 'Brainstorm' scenes. The 70mm prints would have been made from this combined 65mm negative, the 35mm prints probably were a reduction from the combined 65mm negative. It's possible they also prepared the 35mm prints via a 35mm negative containing a reduction of the 65mm along with the original 35mm elements. I never saw it in 35mm, just 70mm, so can't comment on how those looked. The 70mm was outstanding for the 'Brainstorm' effect (the movie, not so much).
post #67 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by wuther View Post

Most disappointing pqs are, I suspect anyway, from a old DVD master.
Woodstock in theaters went into a' immerse' mode? I was under the impression it just had different mating formats in theaters.

A great many parts of the film are single 1.33 (1.66?)image inside a 2.35 frame.
post #68 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

The movie was shot with both 35mm and 65mm. The question I have is whether the final cut was conformed to 35mm or 65mm. Were the 70mm release prints blow-ups from 35?

They blew up the 35mm is how I remember it
post #69 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by iBob57 View Post

Perhaps a semantical argument. This presentation would be accurate for 35mm scope shows, but yes, the AR is slightly different than the original 70mm presentation. We should keep in mind the majority of people that saw this film in theaters would have seen 35mm scope prints.
The bottom line is, the film was intended to have part shown in a relatively narrow AR with mono sound with other sequences opening horizontally wider with multichannel sound. The transfer on the new Blu-ray (appears) to be just that.

True, it's accurate, but it's still not the same. The only way to really duplicate it would be if our HDTVs were 2.35 and not 16:9. That way the 1.33-like portions wouldn't be boxed in on the top and bottom at least.
post #70 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by DM2006RI View Post

True, it's accurate, but it's still not the same. The only way to really duplicate it would be if our HDTVs were 2.35 and not 16:9. That way the 1.33-like portions wouldn't be boxed in on the top and bottom at least.

Many of us do this right now.

2.35:1 Constant Image Height Chat
post #71 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanboyz View Post

A great many parts of the film are single 1.33 (1.66?)image inside a 2.35 frame.

In other words combining prints and matting them. Unless I am missing something that's quite a different beast then Brainstrom and much easier to duplicate the in theater experience in HD if you can live with bars on top and bottom. Getting off-topic anyway.
Edited by wuther - 6/27/12 at 4:15pm
post #72 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by iBob57 View Post

The bottom line is, the film was intended to have part shown in a relatively narrow AR with mono sound with other sequences opening horizontally wider with multichannel sound. The transfer on the new Blu-ray (appears) to be just that.
Got to view a early release of the actual studio BD over the weekend- the presentation was exactly as you described- "part shown in a relatively narrow AR with mono sound with other sequences opening horizontally wider with multichannel sound". Real world scenes had black bars on all four sides, the virtual reality scenes EDIT: filled my 16x9 screen are the same height as the real world scenes- but fill the full screen width from left to right. The BD transfer was very high quality- and looked very modern.

EDITED 7/3 to post correct AR for virtual reality scenes.
Edited by replayrob - 7/3/12 at 8:18am
post #73 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by replayrob View Post

Real world scenes had black bars on all four sides, the virtual reality scenes filled my 16x9 screen. The BD transfer was very high quality- and looked very modern.

If it filled a 16X9 screen, then that would mean it wasn't at the proper 2.35 aspect ratio...so the effects sequences would be cropped! Hope that isn't the case. The laserdisc had it right.
post #74 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

Many of us do this right now.
2.35:1 Constant Image Height Chat

Yes, well, good for you guys. The bulk of the people buying the disc don't have that kind of set-up.
post #75 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by DM2006RI View Post

Yes, well, good for you guys. The bulk of the people buying the disc don't have that kind of set-up.

Your loss.
post #76 of 106
Recently saw a 720p conversion and it looks kinda okay, although colours are a bit washed out and skin tones fluctuate at times.

It does appear to be 1.66:1 inside a 2.2:1 frame and the regular scenes just look wrong stuck in the middle of the TV with black bars around it, as they constitute the majority of the movie: it reduces the resolution/detail.

From comments earlier I thought the brainstorm scenes expanded slowly outwards from the central core, but it actually switches directly between scenes. Having now watched this effect, they might as well have gone with 1.66:1 taking up the full 1080p height for the standard scenes as the 2.2:1 widescreen brainstorm scenes will still look wider. We are already used to that effect from Dark Knight and Transformers.

I think this movie would have been better encoded in both forms, so the consumer could choose which one they preferred to watch.

Better still would be if Bluray supported anamorphic encoding, but I guess that's something for the next format.
post #77 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by IanD View Post

Recently saw a 720p conversion and it looks kinda okay

You mean a torrent/pirated downconversion of the Blu-ray... mad.gif
Quote:
Having now watched this effect, they might as well have gone with 1.66:1 taking up the full 1080p height for the standard scenes as the 2.2:1 widescreen brainstorm scenes will still look wider. We are already used to that effect from Dark Knight and Transformers.

There's a big difference with those films. In the theater Brainstorm did what the blu-ray does: expand from the center into widescreen. The Blu-rays of DK & T:ROTF do what they did in IMAX theaters, expand the top & bottom of the picture into an image with additional height, not width.
post #78 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by DM2006RI View Post

Yes, well, good for you guys. The bulk of the people buying the disc don't have that kind of set-up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

Your loss.

Not exactly a loss being out of spec. For most people CIH setups (your average living room) would not be recommended. Home theater projection setups are a different matter.
post #79 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterTHX View Post

There's a big difference with those films. In the theater Brainstorm did what the blu-ray does: expand from the center into widescreen. The Blu-rays of DK & T:ROTF do what they did in IMAX theaters, expand the top & bottom of the picture into an image with additional height, not width.

I wasn't talking in absolutes: I meant the dual aspect ratio approach, which the public seems to be reasonably comfortable with. I don't think they will like the postage stamp effect of Brainstorm for the most part.

My ordered copy of Brainstorm (plus Coma, Phenomenon, Outland) from Amazon won't arrive for at least a month, so I take whatever offers of a preview I can get.
post #80 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by cinema13 View Post

If it filled a 16X9 screen, then that would mean it wasn't at the proper 2.35 aspect ratio...so the effects sequences would be cropped! Hope that isn't the case. The laserdisc had it right.
Thanks for calling me on that- I rechecked and have corrected my original post... http://www.avsforum.com/t/1401612/brainstorm-1983-coming-to-blu-ray-july-10th/60#post_22184382

Correct info: Real world scenes had black bars on all four sides, the virtual reality scenes are the same height as the real world scenes- but fill the full screen width from left to right.
post #81 of 106
This is a film meant to be seen in theaters. Doesn't get any simpler than that.
post #82 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by IanD View Post

Having now watched this effect, they might as well have gone with 1.66:1 taking up the full 1080p height for the standard scenes as the 2.2:1 widescreen brainstorm scenes will still look wider. We are already used to that effect from Dark Knight and Transformers.

There's a big difference between these movies. In Dark Knight and Transformers, the IMAX scenes are intended to be larger and more immersive than the dramatic scenes. Therefore, the expansion to fill a 16:9 TV is fitting.

In this movie, the "brainstorm" scenes are meant to be larger and more immersive by expanding out sideways. By encoding the disc so that the 1.66:1 scenes are full-height, the "brainstorm" scenes look smaller in comparison, which is the exact opposite of the intent.
post #83 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterTHX View Post

Not exactly a loss being out of spec. For most people CIH setups (your average living room) would not be recommended. Home theater projection setups are a different matter.

I'm sorry , did I wander into the "Joe Sixpack TV" forum? I thought we were in a forum where people cared about home theater, the re-creation of the theatrical experience in the home.

Out of spec? Give me a break. You still have hurt feelings because I convinced Sony to fix the position of subtitles on 2.35:1 movies. Don't think I didn't notice that.
post #84 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

There's a big difference between these movies. In Dark Knight and Transformers, the IMAX scenes are intended to be larger and more immersive than the dramatic scenes. Therefore, the expansion to fill a 16:9 TV is fitting.
In this movie, the "brainstorm" scenes are meant to be larger and more immersive by expanding out sideways. By encoding the disc so that the 1.66:1 scenes are full-height, the "brainstorm" scenes look smaller in comparison, which is the exact opposite of the intent.

Spot on. Doing it that way means that we lose a fair bit of resolution on the 1.66 scenes (vs a full height encode) but the intended effect of the vista opening up sideways is preserved. Still wouldn't have minded seeing a TDK style version though, just for shits and giggles.
post #85 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_Stevens View Post

This is a film meant to be seen in theaters. Doesn't get any simpler than that.

Looks best in theaters probably, guess I will have to wait until it is shown in the lone 70mm theater in town, which maybe never.
post #86 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

I'm sorry , did I wander into the "Joe Sixpack TV" forum? I thought we were in a forum where people cared about home theater, the re-creation of the theatrical experience in the home.
Out of spec? Give me a break. You still have hurt feelings because I convinced Sony to fix the position of subtitles on 2.35:1 movies. Don't think I didn't notice that.

BD and HDTV is a 1.78 format. Any display that isn't 1.78 is out of spec. 4K/8K displays will be 1.78/1.85. So not having a 21x9/CIH setup doesn't make someone "Joe Six-Pack"

The survey didn't convince anyone of anything (even with the cheat of recruiting people from other sites to skew the poll, don't think I or others on the site didn't notice that). It took Sony over a year to make the change, and the person who started the survey ended up being shown that he didn't even work for Sony!
post #87 of 106
Meh. Any high end BD player worth its salt can shift the subtitles manually anyway...
post #88 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterTHX View Post

BD and HDTV is a 1.78 format. Any display that isn't 1.78 is out of spec. 4K/8K displays will be 1.78/1.85. So not having a 21x9/CIH setup doesn't make someone "Joe Six-Pack"
The survey didn't convince anyone of anything (even with the cheat of recruiting people from other sites to skew the poll, don't think I or others on the site didn't notice that). It took Sony over a year to make the change, and the person who started the survey ended up being shown that he didn't even work for Sony!

Personally, I give less than two shits about "specs". Home theater should be about mimicking the theatrical presentation as closely as possible, CIH setups do that, and subtitles in the picture area does that. You tech heads love your toys but you don't really seem to grock cinema that much...
post #89 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post

Meh. Any high end BD player worth its salt can shift the subtitles manually anyway...

This is clearly not something you've actually looked into. In North America, only OPPO Blu-ray players have the subtitle shift function. The BDP-83 is currently out of production, so that leaves only the BDP-93 and BDP-95. In other parts of the world, a handful of Philips Blu-ray players can also do this, but not the Blu-ray players sold under the Philips brand in North America (which are really rebadged Funai machines).

That's it, the sum total of all Blu-ray players, high-end or otherwise, that can alter subtitle position.
post #90 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterTHX View Post

BD and HDTV is a 1.78 format. Any display that isn't 1.78 is out of spec. 4K/8K displays will be 1.78/1.85. So not having a 21x9/CIH setup doesn't make someone "Joe Six-Pack"

This is of course the same rationale that all black bar haters use to demand that scope movies should be cropped to fill their screens.

The "Original Aspect Ratio" of Brainstorm is a 1.66:1 image pillarboxed in the center of a wider scope image. That is how it should be presented, regardless of what shape your TV is. If you want to alter that, then you should also crop all movies to fill your TV screen.
Quote:
The survey didn't convince anyone of anything (even with the cheat of recruiting people from other sites to skew the poll, don't think I or others on the site didn't notice that).

How was it cheating to do specifically what was instructed in the poll, which was to get people actually affected by the issue to vote? You're still bitter that you couldn't convince (or "recruit") anyone to vote for your side, because once people looked at the issue logically and dispassionately, they realized that I was right and you were just being petty. Pure sour grapes.
Quote:
It took Sony over a year to make the change, and the person who started the survey ended up being shown that he didn't even work for Sony!

I'm well aware of the Penton-Man scandal. Frankly, I think it was obvious all along that he didn't work for Sony, and that his being "outed" was inevitable. However, whatever his real identity or agenda, he did have connections to executives in the company, and the survey did work (albeit slowly).

If you really think that he survey didn't convince anyone of anything, why do you continue to whine about it on other forums, three years later?
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