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First VT50 review - Page 5

post #121 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by fahrenheit View Post

Don't be jealous. We'll probably get a 50" VT in a couple of months, the 65" in September, no 55" at all and we'll pay four times as much for them as you do.

Oh wait, you were jealous over the other stuff we have. Never mind then.

Is the price literally 4X the USA price in NZ ... or are you taking a bit of poetic licenses?
post #122 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by HerbalEd View Post

Next year?? Early reviews are saying this year.

If the black level can't be matched, one could at best say it's a tie, IMO.
post #123 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by HerbalEd View Post

Next year?? Early reviews are saying this year.

no...not this year...the VT50 will not tie or surpass the Kuro 9G...the 8G yes
post #124 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by HerbalEd View Post

Next year?? Early reviews are saying this year.

Doesn't this happen every year? I would hope it can match or beat the 9g's this year. In everything, not just black level. But as always, we'll see.
post #125 of 284
The new black level tweak just added a few more years to the Kuro game estimations. Now I guess we need another 3+ years.
If they achieve a breakthrough with OLED then plasmas may get out of the market earlier than they match a tweaked 9G.

Somebody should find a way to effectively tweak the Panasonic black levels!
May be I should get an ST50 and see if it has some pre-discharge voltage adjusting potmeters. LOL.
post #126 of 284
I think panasonic moved these controls to eeprom awhile ago. I looked at the drive boards available for replacement on the ST30 and GT30 and there are no analog voltage adjustments other than Vsus. But just like the kuro there may be a way to adjust eeprom values with the right software.
post #127 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by janos666 View Post

The new black level tweak just added a few more years to the Kuro game estimations. Now I guess we need another 3+ years.
If they achieve a breakthrough with OLED then plasmas may get out of the market earlier than they match a tweaked 9G.

Somebody should find a way to effectively tweak the Panasonic black levels!
May be I should get an ST50 and see if it has some pre-discharge voltage adjusting potmeters. LOL.

I agree- I would bet that OLED would beat Plasma to the "Kuro-level or better" of black with years to spare. The market for Plasma will only continue to shrink, and will likely evaporate once OLED becomes financially reasonable. Therefore I think it would be impractical (if not foolish) for Panasonic to strive to beat the Kuro. I'm sure they're dumping resources into their own OLED tech as we speak.

All that said, it's very likely that the VT50 will be "close enough" for most of us, if early reports are to be believed.
post #128 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by HerbalEd View Post

Is the price literally 4X the USA price in NZ ... or are you taking a bit of poetic licenses?

Poetic license.

We do pay a premium, but mostly because of the shipping costs of such large items.
post #129 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest261 View Post

The market for Plasma will only continue to shrink, and will likely evaporate once OLED becomes financially reasonable. Therefore I think it would be impractical (if not foolish) for Panasonic to strive to beat the Kuro. I'm sure they're dumping resources into their own OLED tech as we speak.

On the other hand, this also means PDP manufacturers have less interest in keeping back the already existing research and development results they already paid for and implement that to existing products while they still exist.

This is not as profitable as dripping it in small doses from year to year but better than keeping it back forever. It may motivate more people to upgrade more frequently during a short period until it's finished.

May be this is why we have a decent Panasonic series this year (assuming they are as good as early reviews say - I didn't see any of them in person yet).
But it's still nowhere close to a Panasonic revised Kuro I would imagine (not as good but close enough and more affordable). (Not if we have tons of affordable OLEDs on the door-steps right now...)
post #130 of 284
what is this 50 Hz bug? Is this common with all plasma's?
post #131 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by curiousdude View Post

what is this 50 Hz bug? Is this common with all plasma's?

It's only a problem with Panny plasmas in any region that has an a/c frequency of 50 Hz, such as the UK. 50 Hz content can apparently look " jittery" at times- probably due to how the TV is sampling the content.

If you live in North America, you don't need to worry about it at all.
post #132 of 284
Here's hoping they fixed the 96hz display mode for 24p content this year.
post #133 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest261 View Post

If you live in North America, you don't need to worry about it at all.

I see the same thing with 60Hz content (PC games rendered at 60 progressive frames per sec), it's just a lot more noticeable with 50Hz materials (EU TV).

I rarely see this artifact during (60Hz) gaming and my D-series PDP wasn't "perfect" either (it just showed differently looking artifacts when it couldn't keep up with the motion and gradation at the same time).
It looks crazy when observed on test materials (such as common "motion resolution" tests) but for me, the phosphor lag (virtually independent from refresh rates) is more disturbing during actual gaming than this rare dithering artifact (rare with 60Hz, not so rare with 50Hz).
On the other hand, I never see phosphor trailing in movies (not even during fast action scenes, just during gaming) but I do see some posterization on moving faces (Blu-Ray movies) which I rarely saw on the Samsung.

n*24Hz is also affected for some degree. It's worse than 60Hz (speaking of precision and dithering quality).


I guess it has to do something with the number of sub-fields used to produce the images and/or how the dithering algorithm is optimized (for refresh rates and/or sub-field counts).
Panasonic preserves the MLL between 60Hz and 50Hz but drops precision (gradation), Samsung sacrifices the MLL but keeps the precision (or most of it).
post #134 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by janos666 View Post

I see the same thing with 60Hz content (PC games rendered at 60 progressive frames per sec), it's just a lot more noticeable with 50Hz materials (EU TV).

I rarely see this artifact during (60Hz) gaming and my D-series PDP wasn't "perfect" either (it just showed differently looking artifacts when it couldn't keep up with the motion and gradation at the same time).
It looks crazy when observed on test materials (such as common "motion resolution" tests) but for me, the phosphor lag (virtually independent from refresh rates) is more disturbing during actual gaming than this rare dithering artifact (rare with 60Hz, not so rare with 50Hz).
On the other hand, I never see phosphor trailing in movies (not even during fast action scenes, just during gaming) but I do see some posterization on moving faces (Blu-Ray movies) which I rarely saw on the Samsung.

n*24Hz is also affected for some degree. It's worse than 60Hz (speaking of precision and dithering quality).


I guess it has to do something with the number of sub-fields used to produce the images and/or how the dithering algorithm is optimized (for refresh rates and/or sub-field counts).
Panasonic preserves the MLL between 60Hz and 50Hz but drops precision (gradation), Samsung sacrifices the MLL but keeps the precision (or most of it).

Is this on a UK model or NA model?
post #135 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest261 View Post

Is this on a UK model or NA model?

EU model (there are some UK and German specific variants but they are essentially the same - sometimes Germans get extra satellite tuners, in the UK it's probably just a different power plug standard).
Do the US Panasonics support 50Hz input at all? (Samsung PDPs does not tend to)
post #136 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by janos666 View Post

EU model (there are some UK and German specific variants but they are essentially the same - sometimes Germans get extra satellite tuners, in the UK it's probably just a different power plug standard).
Do the US Panasonics support 50Hz input at all? (Samsung PDPs does not tend to)

That's interesting that you still have the problem with 60 Hz content. That means that the problem is probably mostly due to the power supply and how it's utilized by the panel (which is what I suspected) rather than the content.

I'm guessing that Panasonic designed these sets around the 60 Hz AC standard and made "modifications" to make them work for 50 Hz sets.
post #137 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest261 View Post

That's interesting that you still have the problem with 60 Hz content.

The strangest thing about this phenomenon is what I learned from David Mackenzie's reviews: engaging IFC effectively reduces these artifacts (it's still there but it's virtually nonexistent - you really need to look for it with picked materials from close distance and even then it's very minimal, nothing to worry about...).


The most disturbing thing is that I have no idea what IFC may do with progressive 60Hz input.

It does not change the panel refresh rate (neither on Mid or High setting), so there is no place for interpolated frames (unlike with 24Hz input and 48/60/92Hz panel refresh modes or 50Hz input and 60Hz refresh or even with interlaced 60Hz and 60Hz refresh).

However, it does increase the input lag (there is extra processing time, so there should be some extra processing...) and it does cause some other artifacts (similar to what you can see with 24Hz input + IFC engaged but much milder though).

So I have no idea what is really going on because it seems this (2011) panel with this driving system is able to visualize the images without this artifact in 60Hz refresh mode. However, you need to turn on something which not only causes other problems (different artifacts and extra lag) but should theoretically do nothing in this case (or do something but also change the panel refresh rate).


The best (actually the worst) I can think about: May be it treats the progressive 60Hz input as interlaced 60Hz and interpolates progressive frames again (and that's where the interpolation glitches are coming from but this is still no answer why it affects the dithering artifacts).

Or it activates some kind of processing we can't understand without explanations. (May be IFC introduces a lag of one frame to see what will happen and this helps to optimize the panel driving...? Ah, this is only a wild guess with zero facts.)


This story is confusing and make this phenomenon look like a stupid mistake on Panasonic's side. (Like they forgot about a small trivial thing or the left hand does not know what the right hand does...)
post #138 of 284
I was comparing VT50 with GT50 and notice the following differences only. Is it really worth it to upgrade to Black ultra, 96 Hz playback and ISFccc?


GT50
=============
Infinite Black Pro
24p Cinematic Playback 48 Hz

VT50
=============
Infinite Black Ultra
24p Cinematic Playback 96 Hz/48 Hz
ISFccc (Advanced Calibration)
post #139 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by curiousdude View Post

I was comparing VT50 with GT50 and notice the following differences only. Is it really worth it to upgrade to Black ultra, 96 Hz playback and ISFccc?

GT50
=============
Infinite Black Pro
24p Cinematic Playback 48 Hz

VT50
=============
Infinite Black Ultra
24p Cinematic Playback 96 Hz/48 Hz
ISFccc (Advanced Calibration)


You also get these features over the GT;

+More pro picture adjustments.

+Frameless one sheet of glass screen design.

+Advanced sound system with sub woofer.
post #140 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sound & Vision View Post

You also get these features over the GT;

+More pro picture adjustments.

+Frameless one sheet of glass screen design.

+Advanced sound system with sub woofer.

For the sound, I notice they are same for VT, GT and ST

Number of Speakers - Front speaker (8 train speakers) x 2, Woofer (ΓΈ100 mm) x 1
Audio Output - 18 W (4 + 4 +10)
Sound System - 3D Real Sound
post #141 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sound & Vision View Post


+More pro picture adjustments.

+Frameless one sheet of glass screen design.

+Advanced sound system with sub woofer.

- He already listed this (ISFccc)

- I am not a fan of the idea to put an extra glass over the panel. (Regardless that I didn't find it disturbing in this case, it's not something I would categorize as a positive thing. The same thing goes for the AR filters for me. I don't need them in a dark room but they can cause side-effects in same cases...)

- Really? Is there anybody who buys a VT50 and does not have any decent sound system? (Integrated sub-woofer or not, even the cheapest reasonable external 2.1 speaker set will beat that anyway. LOL. )
post #142 of 284
How much different is the picture on then two units trying to pick one myself
post #143 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by janos666 View Post

- Really? Is there anybody who buys a VT50 and does not have any decent sound system? (Integrated sub-woofer or not, even the cheapest reasonable external 2.1 speaker set will beat that anyway. LOL. )

Yes, there are.
post #144 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by janos666 View Post


- He already listed this (ISFccc)

- I am not a fan of the idea to put an extra glass over the panel. (Regardless that I didn't find it disturbing in this case, it's not something I would categorize as a positive thing. The same thing goes for the AR filters for me. I don't need them in a dark room but they can cause side-effects in same cases...)

- Really? Is there anybody who buys a VT50 and does not have any decent sound system? (Integrated sub-woofer or not, even the cheapest reasonable external 2.1 speaker set will beat that anyway. LOL. )

No.... On top of having ISFccc (Advanced Calibration) for an additional Day and Night picture setting... There is far more "user" pro picture settings that the VT has readily available to the user... ISFccc (Advanced Calibration) is only accessed by a professional calibrator using the correct software... Man.... Why so negative toward my simple honest reply??
post #145 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sound & Vision View Post

No.... On top of having ISFccc (Advanced Calibration) for an additional Day and Night picture setting... There is far more "user" pro picture settings that the VT has readily available to the user... ISFccc (Advanced Calibration) is only accessed by a professional calibrator using the correct software... Man.... Why so negative toward my simple honest reply??

I am not sure what you mean by those "additional pro adjustments" other than the extra controls available in the ISF modes.

(I can't even understand the meaning of "user" pro settings. LOL.)


The ISF Day and ISF Nigh modes offer 10p RGB+L gray and 6p HSL color space controls on the VT series (A lot of those shouldn't even exist. I am just saying. But that's another topic.) over the 2p RGB gray and 3p HSL color controls on the cheaper models. (By the way, our GT50E got the calibration feature set of the VT50E which makes one part of me happy and the other to honestly cry.)




I know, I actually used that interface once (you even need a "secreet" ISF password for the EU models when you establish the ethernet connection, LOL ).

(Only once because I decided to keep these VT30 sets alone. The first experience made me feel I don't need that again...)

Well, let's just say I tried to calibrate a VT30 (you know it's never really "calibrated" -only "adjusted" for it's best- and it wasn't long after the release, before Panasonic issued the FBr update and the community figured out some workarounds...).

But this is the ISFccc calibration we are talking about, right?


And he mentioned the ISFccc and the more "advanced" (I prefer to say: bloated) calibration.

What am I missing?
post #146 of 284
don't know why pansonic would make a VT if the GT is just has good. i guest they want to make more money and confuse the customer.
Makes it very hard to pick a tv the vt 55 vs 60gt other then the size.
post #147 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by janos666 View Post

- He already listed this (ISFccc)

- I am not a fan of the idea to put an extra glass over the panel. (Regardless that I didn't find it disturbing in this case, it's not something I would categorize as a positive thing. The same thing goes for the AR filters for me. I don't need them in a dark room but they can cause side-effects in same cases...)

- Really? Is there anybody who buys a VT50 and does not have any decent sound system? (Integrated sub-woofer or not, even the cheapest reasonable external 2.1 speaker set will beat that anyway. LOL. )

You have to have something over the panel. The glass on the VT isn't extra glass, it's a one sheet design. You don't want the AR filter? Fine but most of us do and we prefer a good one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by janos666 View Post

I am not sure what you mean by those "additional pro adjustments" other than the extra controls available in the ISF modes.

(I can't even understand the meaning of "user" pro settings. LOL.)


The ISF Day and ISF Nigh modes offer 10p RGB+L gray and 6p HSL color space controls on the VT series (A lot of those shouldn't even exist. I am just saying. But that's another topic.) over the 2p RGB gray and 3p HSL color controls on the cheaper models. (By the way, our GT50E got the calibration feature set of the VT50E which makes one part of me happy and the other to honestly cry.)




I know, I actually used that interface once (you even need a "secreet" ISF password for the EU models when you establish the ethernet connection, LOL ).

(Only once because I decided to keep these VT30 sets alone. The first experience made me feel I don't need that again...)

Well, let's just say I tried to calibrate a VT30 (you know it's never really "calibrated" -only "adjusted" for it's best- and it wasn't long after the release, before Panasonic issued the FBr update and the community figured out some workarounds...).

But this is the ISFccc calibration we are talking about, right?


And he mentioned the ISFccc and the more "advanced" (I prefer to say: bloated) calibration.

What am I missing?

You don't think 10 point adjustments are a good thing? That's your opinion, I prefer more adjustments over less. The more I can tweak to dial the set in closer to standards the better I feel. If you don't want or need this and don't care for the design or the improved processing/software that comes with the VT then get the GT. That's why they make additional models so people have some choice.

But the items you're picking out to criticize, glass over the panel, more adjustments for the user, upgraded speakers, etc is getting rather silly. If you don't want a VT and would prefer a GT then get one. The GT is going to be an excellent set and I'm on the fence about a 60 inch GT and a 55 VT but I'm leaning towards the VT precisely for the very things you're criticizing. So if those added features don't mean anything to you, that's fine, but that doesn't mean the VT is essentially worthless. It just may not be the best for your environment and that's fine...
post #148 of 284
I like all the things about the vt but the only difference i see in canada is the size. The price is going to be the same for the 55 and the 60.
post #149 of 284
What about regular folks who just want a quality set with good colors and black levels? Will GT be enough or is VT the only option?

As stated above, I see VT50 with 96 Hz 24p playback. Is this something that will make a difference when watching movies?

Is there noticeable difference between Infinite Black pro and Infinite Black Ultra?

Quote:


GT50
=============
Infinite Black Pro
24p Cinematic Playback 48 Hz

VT50
=============
Infinite Black Ultra
24p Cinematic Playback 96 Hz/48 Hz
ISFccc (Advanced Calibration)
post #150 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBeer View Post

don't know why pansonic would make a VT if the GT is just has good. i guest they want to make more money and confuse the customer.
Makes it very hard to pick a tv the vt 55 vs 60gt other then the size.

The GT will not be as good.
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