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First VT50 review - Page 2

post #31 of 284
(deleted)
post #32 of 284
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest261 View Post

Sorry, I probably should have been clear and stated (with the exception of LCD TVs that cost >$4k )

Haha fair enough
post #33 of 284
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HearingImpaired View Post

With the strict energy guidelines set for tvs it may be a while before anyone matches Kuro blacks?

Well the new OLEDs this fall will certainly stampede kuro's blacks, but then again you'll have to pay the piper. As far as reasonably attainable tvs, next years panasonics SHOULD match kuro blacks as long as panasonic stays focused on their plasma line.
post #34 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by karlmalone1 View Post


Well the new OLEDs this fall will certainly stampede kuro's blacks, but then again you'll have to pay the piper. As far as reasonably attainable tvs, next years panasonics SHOULD match kuro blacks as long as panasonic stays focused on their plasma line.

Honestly, I expect OLED to become a practical option long before we reach Kuro-level blacks. That said, it sounds like this year's Panasonic line comes damn close- at least in the "close enough" range for most of us. I still have yet to see one myself, though.
post #35 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Reference black = 0 cd/m^2, so they are using the term poorly. They should have been able to measure a full black with the equipment they had so either they screwed up the measurement or the panel shuts off with a full black input.

Or the VT50 floats blacks... or politics.
post #36 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Or the VT50 floats blacks... or politics.

Floating when fed 0% stimulus. Imagine that.
post #37 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by HearingImpaired View Post

With the strict energy guidelines set for tvs it may be a while before anyone matches Kuro blacks?

I do believe you are correct! Panny and sammy's have the worm and I am the fish! They keep me wanting more too! I am gonna have to practice being content! I will just have to crush a little black to have a 9G Kuro Panasonic! Ha
post #38 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by HearingImpaired View Post

With the strict energy guidelines set for tvs it may be a while before anyone matches Kuro blacks?

There is nothing about Energy Star that precludes a design that has incredibly dark blacks. Displaying black or near black uses tiny amounts of energy, not large amounts.
post #39 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by fahrenheit View Post

Floating when fed 0% stimulus. Imagine that.

Chance of that acutally happening is almost zero. But is still a possibility.
post #40 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest261 View Post

If the ST (and GT if I'm not mistaken) had the picture controls of the VT, I'd probably be OK with them. I'm an amateur calibrator and I need those controls to make that investment worthwhile. Other than forcing NA buyers like me to the VT model, I don't quite understand why the UK models get these controls, but we don't in the states.

They get more than just that, like a usb that will record.

I was told last year that, Panasonic's research indicates that NA doesn't want those things and if we had those controls we wouldn't know how to use them and could mess up our tvs. This was said to me by avjunkie, not "Panasonic". I find that a very bitter pill to swallow.
post #41 of 284
Reminds me of the lingo Pioneer spoke when they released the castrated 5020FD/6020FD displays. At best, such thinking is an insult to Americans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sheshechic View Post

I was told last year that, Panasonic's research indicates that NA doesn't want those things and if we had those controls we wouldn't know how to use them and could mess up our tvs.
post #42 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Chance of that acutally happening is almost zero. But is still a possibility.

I know they have a K-10 and by all accounts, they shouldn't have any trouble measuring the mll. They did so for the ST50 review (although a little reservedly). I'm not sure what the reason was for them to doubt the measurements.

Perhaps Phil Hinton keeps the keys to the K-10 and Mark (the reviewer) only had access to a less capable instrument?

I hope its something simply like that and not some new floating between commercial breaks feature.
post #43 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Reminds me of the lingo Pioneer spoke when they released the castrated 5020FD/6020FD displays. At best, such thinking is an insult to Americans.

Yes.
post #44 of 284
I think it has something to do with tivo and cable company dvr's not allowing TV manufactures to build that feature in. Probably by using patents or some other government regulation bs. But there is some kind of regulation not allowing tv's to have usb hdd recording abilities in the USA.
post #45 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

There is nothing about Energy Star that precludes a design that has incredibly dark blacks. Displaying black or near black uses tiny amounts of energy, not large amounts.

Awesome response. Thanks for the info. I had no idea. I am a noob when it comes to all of this stuff.
post #46 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by fahrenheit View Post

I know they have a K-10 and by all accounts, they shouldn't have any trouble measuring the mll. They did so for the ST50 review (although a little reservedly). I'm not sure what the reason was for them to doubt the measurements.

Perhaps Phil Hinton keeps the keys to the K-10 and Mark (the reviewer) only had access to a less capable instrument?

I hope its something simply like that and not some new floating between commercial breaks feature.

The blacks don't float and yes I had to use a less capable meter for low light readings to get the ANSI number. Perhaps I shouldn't have bothered at all, I was in two minds, but some people want those numbers. Your best tools will be your own eyes and I've seen just about everything the market - over extended periods in an excellent viewing environment - has to offer (we don't get the Sharp Elite) and the VT50 blows them out of the water for black levels and dynamic range. It's a beaut

No politics involved whatsoever. Just thought I'd clear that up.
post #47 of 284
I think they alluded to the issue of attaining high-end 'reference' blacks, light output and color: cheap parts. All manufacturers are squeezed by putting in more features and performance with ever-increasing cost reduction expectations.
post #48 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by hodg100 View Post

The blacks don't float and yes I had to use a less capable meter for low light readings to get the ANSI number. Perhaps I shouldn't have bothered at all, I was in two minds, but some people want those numbers. Your best tools will be your own eyes and I've seen just about everything the market - over extended periods in an excellent viewing environment - has to offer (we don't get the Sharp Elite) and the VT50 blows them out of the water for black levels and dynamic range. It's a beaut

No politics involved whatsoever. Just thought I'd clear that up.


Thanks for that clarification, looks like a stunning display. Can one access the full CMS/10 pt controls and achieve better than 26 ftL peak white? I don't mind 26 ftL in a nice dark room but for everyday viewing I prefer 35 ftl.
post #49 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by hodg100 View Post

The blacks don't float and yes I had to use a less capable meter for low light readings to get the ANSI number. Perhaps I shouldn't have bothered at all, I was in two minds, but people want those numbers. Your best tools will be your own eyes and I've seen just about everything the market - over extended periods in an excellent viewing environment - has to offer (we don't get the Sharp Elite) and the VT50 blows them out of the water for black levels and dynamic range. It's a beaut

No politics involved whatsoever. Just thought I'd clear that up.

Thanks Mark for clearing that up.

You are damned if you do and damned if you don't when it comes to publishing anything mll related. People want to know, but they also want to overlook all the caveats. Can't win really.
post #50 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Thanks for that clarification, looks like a stunning display. Can one access the full CMS/10 pt controls and achieve better than 26 ftL peak white? I don't mind 26 ftL in a nice dark room but for everyday viewing I prefer 35 ftl.

No but we could get 33fL in THX cinema with dE 1994 under 3 across the board (Rec 709) and of course you can nail greyscale in the SM. Gamma tracking was also excellent and the 'spike' at 90 can be brought down with a couple back on Contrast BUT although it was only measuring 26fL in Pro - images look a lot more like 35fL, if you know what I'm saying. Can't say I can explain why that is, successfully, you just need to go see for yourself

Pre Cal THX Cinema Mode pics attached.

Besides which, you guys get the panel brightness setting anyhow don't you? Not to mention none/less of those niggly 50Hz problems. There's far less DFC with the 60Hz video I watched and none of the occasional edge break up and multiply so I think you're all in for a real treat.

We're not treating the scoring for Reference in terms of video black reference, btw, just in terms of what the rest of the (available) TVs on the market have to live up to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fahrenheit View Post

Thanks Mark for clearing that up.

You are damned if you do and damned if you don't when it comes to publishing anything mll related. People want to know, but they also want to overlook all the caveats. Can't win really.

Amen to that and if there were a thanks button here I would have pressed it.

You guys are members on AVForums so why not post your feedback over there? It's all welcomed and, besides, I've got enough on keeping up with the feedback thread over there. I was just concerned when I saw the mention of it being a possible political thing. I'd probably make the worlds worst politician
LL
LL
post #51 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by hodg100 View Post

You guys are members on AVForums so why not post your feedback over there? It's all welcomed and, besides, I've got enough on keeping up with the feedback thread over there.

I was looking in the plasma sub-forum and wondering why there was so little discussion. I should have looked at the last tab of the review. :Facepalm:
post #52 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by hodg100 View Post

The blacks don't float and yes I had to use a less capable meter for low light readings to get the ANSI number. Perhaps I shouldn't have bothered at all, I was in two minds, but some people want those numbers.

People want accurate numbers. If you knew your meter was less than capable, as a respectable reviewer you should have noted that or not posted the numbers at all. If the meter cannot do full field black, then it should not be capable of doing ANSI black unless the display floats black or you setup the meter improperly where light from the adjacent white squares leaked into the measurements. I'm not trying to insult your skill set but from someone who does measurements all the time, your comments don't make sense to me.

Quote:


I've seen just about everything the market - over extended periods in an excellent viewing environment - has to offer (we don't get the Sharp Elite) and the VT50 blows them out of the water for black levels and dynamic range. It's a beaut

Yes, the 2012 Panasonics have great dynamic range.

Quote:


No politics involved whatsoever.

Wrong numbers are far worse than no numbers. You created a very good review of the display without the numbers. Posting numbers from a less than capable device is odd unless politics are involved. Just sayin'
post #53 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by hodg100 View Post

BUT although it was only measuring 26fL in Pro - images look a lot more like 35fL, if you know what I'm saying. Can't say I can explain why that is, successfully, you just need to go see for yourself

If you want a somewhat detailed explaination, review last year's Flat Panel Shootout where this is discussed with the VT30. The VT50, and all other 1080p 3D 2012 Panasonic PDPs, do the same thing. Basically, 35fL measured with standard sized windowed patterns equate to about 44fL viewed. This phenomenon with Panasonic PDPs has been in exsistence since the 2010 models.

Quote:


Besides which, you guys get the panel brightness setting anyhow don't you?

Yes.
post #54 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

People want accurate numbers. If you knew your meter was less than capable, as a respectable reviewer you should have noted that or not posted the numbers at all. If the meter cannot do full field black, then it should not be capable of doing ANSI black unless the display floats black or you setup the meter improperly where light from the adjacent white squares leaked into the measurements. I'm not trying to insult your skill set but from someone who does measurements all the time, your comments don't make sense to me.

Yes, the 2012 Panasonics have great dynamic range.

Wrong numbers are far worse than no numbers. You created a very good review of the display without the numbers. Posting numbers from a less than capable device is odd unless politics are involved. Just sayin'

Fair enough, I thought I qualified it enough but I respect the viewpoint and constructive feedback like that is always take in mind. At least now we can move on from the speculation
post #55 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by hodg100 View Post

At least now we can move on from the speculation

Which is always a good thing. For the record, what meter was used for the review?
post #56 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Which is always a good thing. For the record, what meter was used for the review?

i1Pro spectro with i1D3 profiled. Obviously used the tri-stim to try and get the low light reading. Perhaps wishing I hadn't bothered now but you live and learn, should have trusted my instincts probably.
post #57 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by hodg100 View Post


i1Pro spectro with i1D3 profiled. Obviously used the tri-stim to try and get the low light reading. Perhaps wishing I hadn't bothered now but you live and learn, should have trusted my instincts probably.

The D3 should have no problems reading the MLL of the VT50 as it has been verified as being accurate down to 0.001fL. So we are back to square one. Either the VT50 measures below 0.001fL on full field black (which would mean it floats blacks with your ANSI measurements), your ANSI measurement is wrong, user error (it happens) or it's something else which could be classified as "politics".
post #58 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

The D3 should have no problems reading the MLL of the VT50 as it has been verified as being accurate down to 0.001fL. So we are back to square one. Either the VT50 measures below 0.001fL on full field black (which would mean it floats blacks with your ANSI measurements), your ANSI measurement is wrong, user error (it happens) or it's something else which could be classified as "politics".

Whichever, it still beats anything we have in the UK currently. Your feedback is appreciated, thanks
post #59 of 284
hodg100,

Is it possible to gain access to the K-10 and measure the mll so that this issue can be cleared up and everyones curiosity as to what the real mll is can be satisfied?
post #60 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by hodg100 View Post

Whichever, it still beats anything we have in the UK currently.

Probably so... currently on the market that is
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