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Pro calibration or do it myself? - Page 3

post #61 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Sorry, but I have heard much differently regarding "copying settings" (so long as we're talking identical, new, models ("broken in" if applicable). I have read and heard from multiple pros- some on this very thread and forum- that taking the settings from a pro calibration and applying them to another identical set can yield superb results- and that's been precisely my experience along with thousands of others on AVS alone. Most simply (and I believe, rightly) contend that modern R&D and production practices produce displays that are very similar to one another (within a given model of course wink.gif). Yeah, I'm sure there are exceptions (like anything else in life) but their explanations have struck me as fantastically reasonable, by and large.
So again, of course not every single television that rolls off the line is a mirror image of the one 2,000 units earlier...but imperatively, that isn't the question. The question is: are those differences significant enough to warrant a 3-$400 calibration? And that is (just as obviously) is a value judgment for everyone.
Matter of fact, I'd love to run an ABX with a pro calibrated set vs another that simply applied the settings from the aforementioned. I am confident it would be highly revealing.
James

Greyscale can differ significantly from one set to the next even in the same model. Yes you can apply settings from some one elses calibration they may come out quite nice they may not. But at any rate the end result is subjective and although it may be pleasing to the eye it may not be accurate from a reference standpoint. I've gone the diy route and then had a pro calibration and the results were night and day and certainly discernable with normal viewing content. Again its a personal choice but it is certainly a worthwhile investment imo.
post #62 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackB View Post

I'm slightly colorblind (can't see red numbers on green background very well. This is most common colorblind among men) and I wonder if this makes a difference when using the Spyder 4 and Calman package; or any of the starter packages discussed above. Are these calibrations strictly by the numbers or do they require judgement is another way of asking the question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djams View Post

Everything done with the meter / software is "by the numbers".

For the most part it is by the numbers. There will be times during the process that you are asked to visually check something, but those situations aren't about judging color. They are about getting luminance levels to line up, like the pluge and contrast patterns, or color/tint pattern with the blue filter or blue only mode. In either case we are simply asking does this one color blend into the other color. In those situations colorblindness shouldn't matter.
post #63 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

For the most part it is by the numbers. There will be times during the process that you are asked to visually check something, but those situations aren't about judging color. They are about getting luminance levels to line up, like the pluge and contrast patterns, or color/tint pattern with the blue filter or blue only mode. In either case we are simply asking does this one color blend into the other color. In those situations colorblindness shouldn't matter.

So I think I might give this a try. I know it's been addressed above but I'm still a little confused as to the best low cost solution. Which software/ hardware gives me the best shot? My budget is less than $400.
post #64 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackB View Post

So I think I might give this a try. I know it's been addressed above but I'm still a little confused as to the best low cost solution. Which software/ hardware gives me the best shot? My budget is less than $400.

$440 but a very good way to go: http://chromapure.com/products-d3.asp This is the one I'd buy if I were you and willing to pay a little extra money.

Also, at $395: http://store.spectracal.com/consumer/calman-video-calibration.html Don't suck for the D2 $229 option.
Edited by buzzard767 - 7/19/12 at 6:34pm
post #65 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

$440 but a very good way to go: http://chromapure.com/products-d3.asp This is the one I'd buy if I were you and willing to pay a little extra money.
Also, at $395: http://store.spectracal.com/consumer/calman-video-calibration.html Don't suck for the D2 $229 option.

Basically it looks like the decision comes down to which software is better for elementry tech folks like me and which one is easiest to use. Any thoughts on which package based on those factors?
post #66 of 108
http://chromapure.com/ - watch the demos - There is a learning curve but you need to have an understanding of what is being done and why. ChromaPure also has excellent help information accessible from each module specific to the module. I have both programs and believe you'd be better off with ChromaPure.
post #67 of 108
I have used both and prefer CalMAN. It offers far more control over the calibration process and can be customized greatly. CalMANv4 offers overall better functionality in virtually all areas of calibration short of color management, an area where ChromaPure is significantly better. CalMANv5 should take care of this issue, though, and make it the preferred option for those who want the most flexible software with extensive control over all aspects of calibration. ChromaPure might be easier to use for those new to calibration, but that's mainly due to it's simple design and lack of extensive settings/options to customize the software with to meet your needs. It's simple and gets the job done, but CalMAN is more rewarding to use once you get the hang of it, which is not hard to do.
Edited by PlasmaPZ80U - 7/21/12 at 8:48am
post #68 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

I have used both and prefer CalMAN. It offers far more control over the calibration process and can be customized greatly. CalMANv4 offers overall better functionality in virtually all areas of calibration short of color management, an area where ChromaPure is significantly better. CalMANv5 should take care of this issue, though, and make it the preferred option for those who want the most flexible software with extensive control over all aspects of calibration. ChromaPure might be easier to use for those new to calibration, but that's mainly due to it's simple design and lack of extensive settings/options to customize the software with to meet your needs. It's simple and gets the job done, but CalMAN is more rewarding to use once you get the hang of it, which is not hard to do.
One thing that especially bothered me about ChromaPure is that the white balance module only lets you look at a single grayscale step at a time. If you want to view the whole grayscale together, you need to use the post-cal grayscale module. Also, unlike CalMAN, you can't set RGB balance (grayscale color) and gamma (grayscale luminance) at the same time. You have to use the white balance module and the gamma module separately.

I own CalMAN Expert and know what it is capable of, and what it is not capable of. JackB wants to calibrate one or more personal TVs. ChromaPure's "simple design" is nothing short of elegant. JackB doesn't need "extensive settings/options to customize the software with to meet your needs". The "reward" is to get the display calibrated and the ISF/THX approved ChromaPure does it without all the bells and whistles and yearly maintenance fees that come with CalMAN. Your final comment is incorrect. I do Grayscale and Gamma simultaneously in the Gamma Module. It's a snap.
Edited by buzzard767 - 7/20/12 at 9:16pm
post #69 of 108
Here's the Gamma Module with both Gamma on the horizontal line (bottom) and Grayscale Color on the vertical bar graph (upper right).

post #70 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

I own CalMAN Expert and know what it is capable of, and what it is not capable of. JackB wants to calibrate one or more personal TVs. ChromaPure's "simple design" is nothing short of elegant. JackB doesn't need "extensive settings/options to customize the software with to meet your needs". The "reward" is to get the display calibrated and the ISF/THX approved ChromaPure does it without all the bells and whistles and yearly maintenance fees that come with CalMAN. Your final comment is incorrect. I do Grayscale and Gamma simultaneously in the Gamma Module. It's a snap.

The yearly maintenance fee of $50 for CalMAN DIY/Home gets you all software updates at no extra charge for the whole year. I believe ChromaPure charges a fee for major new releases/updates each time one is released.

"Point upgrades will be offered to licensed users for free. These upgrades will generally include only small changes and bug fixes. New versions will be offered to licensed users at a substantial discount. New versions will include major new functionality, and will not be merely cosmetic."

-from ChromaPure website, FAQ page

CalMAN also gives point upgrades for free, but doesn't charge you separately per new version. So, the two are more alike than different in this respect (overall yearly fees should be comparable). Of course, Expert will have much higher fees but that's not for a home user.
post #71 of 108
I should add that since this is a matter of personal preference, there is not really one correct answer to the question. Those who prefer ChromaPure do for it's easy to use design, with ample help menus and little to no learning curve. Those who prefer CalMAN want full control over the software and the ability to customize anything and everything, not to mention more advanced features, settings, options, and other elements that can be quite rewarding once you get past the somewhat steeper learning curve. Either software should allow a full calibration (especially once CalMANv5 is out), but CalMAN gives you greater control over the software and broader support for meters, pattern generators, displays, etc. It's been around long before ChromaPure even existed, which may have something to do with why it offers more once a user gains some experience.

In any case, to anyone looking to get premium calibration software, try out the evaluation mode of the latest CalMANv4 software (uses simulated meter, but allows you to fully test out the software) and view the ChromaPure demos on the website (linked above by another poster). That should help you decide which software better suits your needs and the pros and cons of each. Pricing wise, the two software packages are more alike than different.
Edited by PlasmaPZ80U - 7/21/12 at 9:31am
post #72 of 108
CalMAN 5 Ultimate, $3000 + (I think) $595 per year
ChromaPure Pro, $1000, no more fees for anything, ever
post #73 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

CalMAN 5 Ultimate, $3000 + (I think) $595 per year
ChromaPure Pro, $1000, no more fees for anything, ever

And CalMAN ultimate can calibrate 3D LUTs, DICOM medical calibration, Calibrate PC's to sRGB or Adobe RGB. It can create ICC profiles. It has DDC controls to allow you to manual adjust autocal results. It has a display matching tool to make it easy to match multi-panel arrays. It has the BT.1886 gamma formula. It has support for doing the gretag macbeth color checker chart. It has advanced color matching functions that will likely replace the CIE 2-degree 1931 CMF in the near future.

If you don't need all those features, you can get CalMAN expert that is much more comparably priced, still with many of the advanced features.

Also our maintenance fee optional (1st year included), but it does allow us to add support for new displays (what was the last new display hardware support added to chromapure?). It also means free full version releases, so v4 users get 5 for free while under maintenance.
Edited by sotti - 7/21/12 at 2:48pm
post #74 of 108
I know what it can do, Joel. BTW, I have Expert. smile.gif
post #75 of 108
You guys have really been helpful. When I spring for this I will probably go for the ease of use as I sometimes stumble if things get a little too complicated for me. I'm a little surprised that CalMan hasn't put a user friendly layer on top of it's software for the beginning user. This concept still allows the expert to skip the layer or drill down right through it on most software.

BTW, do any of these packages and projector vendors work together to the point where the adjustments, or most adjustments, are done automatically by a PC/Projector handshake? I assume this handshake would take place through either a serial attachment or a USB connection.
post #76 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackB View Post

You guys have really been helpful. When I spring for this I will probably go for the ease of use as I sometimes stumble if things get a little too complicated for me. I'm a little surprised that CalMan hasn't put a user friendly layer on top of it's software for the beginning user. .

We have it's in CalMAN 5, which should be releasing very soon now.
post #77 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

I know what it can do, Joel. BTW, I have Expert. smile.gif

Yes but no one has CalMAN 5 Ultimate except for a handful of beta testers, and it's feature set exceeds version 4 by a wide margin.
post #78 of 108
Joel,
When you Say CalMAN 5 Ultimate, is this the equivalent to Calman Commercial/ Pro ?
or Ultimate is A higher option again above Commercial/Pro when V5 is released..

Thanks...
post #79 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by cinema mad View Post

Joel,
When you Say CalMAN 5 Ultimate, is this the equivalent to Calman Commercial/ Pro ?
or Ultimate is A higher option again above Commercial/Pro when V5 is released..
Thanks...

It's a notch above the current commercial as it's pulling in the work we've done for 3D LUT calibrations with our new studio product and it will be the superset product that has support for all the features of various other offshoot industries.
post #80 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post


We have it's in CalMAN 5, which should be releasing very soon now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

It's a notch above the current commercial as it's pulling in the work we've done for 3D LUT calibrations with our new studio product and it will be the superset product that has support for all the features of various other offshoot industries.

If this "ease of use" layer is what you are referring to for release in CalMAN 5 Ultimate then this seems misdirected. Why wouldn't it be available in the CalMAN DIY version where it is needed the most?
post #81 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackB View Post

If this "ease of use" layer is what you are referring to for release in CalMAN 5 Ultimate then this seems misdirected. Why wouldn't it be available in the CalMAN DIY version where it is needed the most?

it should be in the DIY version
post #82 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackB View Post

If this "ease of use" layer is what you are referring to for release in CalMAN 5 Ultimate then this seems misdirected. Why wouldn't it be available in the CalMAN DIY version where it is needed the most?

No, no, I mean all the design desicions for CalMAN 5 were made around features that will allow us to make simpler more straight forward workflows and the new design of the UI is to make the things you need easy to find and get all the extra stuff out of the way (but still available). That and the product has a new help system for additional information.

All of that is just part of the core of what CalMAN 5 is.
post #83 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

No, no, I mean all the design desicions for CalMAN 5 were made around features that will allow us to make simpler more straight forward workflows and the new design of the UI is to make the things you need easy to find and get all the extra stuff out of the way (but still available). That and the product has a new help system for additional information.
All of that is just part of the core of what CalMAN 5 is.

So when I am ready to pull the trigger it looks like I need to download demo versions of each and see which one I am most comfortable with. I guess I will be waiting until Version 5 comes out. How soo will that be?
post #84 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackB View Post

So when I am ready to pull the trigger it looks like I need to download demo versions of each and see which one I am most comfortable with. I guess I will be waiting until Version 5 comes out. How soo will that be?

you can't actually demo ChromaPure, rather just watch video clip tutiorials of various modules/features/elements of calibration

you can fully demo CalMAN, though only with a simulated meter (which is not really an issue)

I'd definitely wait for CalMANv5, it has so much more than v4, especially in terms of color gamut calibration (an area where v4 lags behind ChromaPure)
post #85 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

Here's the Gamma Module with both Gamma on the horizontal line (bottom) and Grayscale Color on the vertical bar graph (upper right).

I just watched that video demo and noticed you still can only see RGB balance for a single point of the grayscale at a time. You'd still have to use the pre or post cal grayscale module to see full RGB tracking from black to white at the same time. I don't see why ChromaPure was designed this way. A simple fix to this issue could make the software much easier to use for those who want to see the whole grayscale (at 10 or 20 points) at once, without having to resort to a post-cal grayscale module.
post #86 of 108
Greetings

You can get a working demo of CP ... you have to contact Tom directly for this.

Regards
post #87 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

I just watched that video demo and noticed you still can only see RGB balance for a single point of the grayscale at a time. You'd still have to use the pre or post cal grayscale module to see full RGB tracking from black to white at the same time. I don't see why ChromaPure was designed this way. A simple fix to this issue could make the software much easier to use for those who want to see the whole grayscale (at 10 or 20 points) at once, without having to resort to a post-cal grayscale module.

You can only measure and adjust one point at a time so what's the difference if you graph 1 or 20?
post #88 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

You can only measure and adjust one point at a time so what's the difference if you graph 1 or 20?

When doing 10-pt grayscale (or even setting 2-pt to get overall lowest error across the whole grayscale), it helps to see all the points together. It lets you decide what changes to make without having to manually run through each step. It's far more efficient this way and I don't see why anyone would not want this kind of basic functionality in calibration software. Even ColorHCFR can do this, so why not ChromaPure?

FWIW, Tom gave me a similar response to this matter when I first bought ChromaPure and had a D3 PRO (around October 2011) and that was one of the things that prompted me to go back to CalMAN and trade my D3 PRO for the C6.
post #89 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

When doing 10-pt grayscale (or even setting 2-pt to get overall lowest error across the whole grayscale), it helps to see all the points together. It lets you decide what changes to make without having to manually run through each step. It's far more efficient this way and I don't see why anyone would not want this kind of basic functionality in calibration software. Even ColorHCFR can do this, so why not ChromaPure?
FWIW, Tom gave me a similar response to this matter when I first bought ChromaPure and had a D3 PRO (around October 2011) and that was one of the things that prompted me to go back to CalMAN and trade my D3 PRO for the C6.

Ah, I see what you're getting at. I agree with Tom and don't need it.
post #90 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

I just watched that video demo and noticed you still can only see RGB balance for a single point of the grayscale at a time. You'd still have to use the pre or post cal grayscale module to see full RGB tracking from black to white at the same time. I don't see why ChromaPure was designed this way. A simple fix to this issue could make the software much easier to use for those who want to see the whole grayscale (at 10 or 20 points) at once, without having to resort to a post-cal grayscale module.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

When doing 10-pt grayscale (or even setting 2-pt to get overall lowest error across the whole grayscale), it helps to see all the points together. It lets you decide what changes to make without having to manually run through each step. It's far more efficient this way and I don't see why anyone would not want this kind of basic functionality in calibration software. Even ColorHCFR can do this, so why not ChromaPure?
FWIW, Tom gave me a similar response to this matter when I first bought ChromaPure and had a D3 PRO (around October 2011) and that was one of the things that prompted me to go back to CalMAN and trade my D3 PRO for the C6.
Maybe I am being dense, but I really don't understand what you are asking for.

  • If you are doing a 10-pt grayscale to have to adjust each of the 10 points individually. You decide on what changes to make based on how each point measures. How is it "more efficient" to see what the RGB balance is at 20% when you are adjusting 70%? How you adjust 70% or whether you adjust it at all is not affected by the 20% reading.
  • If you are doing a 2-pt grayscale, the same point applies. You have to go back and forth between each individually until both are correct. How one measures does not affect how the other is adjusted.
  • Finally, in any case you do see all of the points together in the pre/post calibration grayscale modules. I just don't understand what functionality you are asking for, much less what benefit would be gained if you had it.

Please provide a specific "for instance."

Reading between the lines the only thing I can think of is that you want the ability to make real-time adjustments in the post-calibration grayscale module (pre-calibration is just for reporting purposes and stays unchanged after the initial set of readings), rather than doing it in the white balance or gamma modules. If that is all, then it would simply be a matter of including a continuous reading option in the post-calibration grayscale module, which would be very simple to do.

As to "why ChromaPure was designed this way", it is based on the model that pre and post calibration states are for reporting only, and that all calibration activity is done separately. That's why the menu is divided into Pre-Calibration, Calibration, and Post-Calibration sections. HCFR has no reporting at all, so doing this wouldn't have made sense for them. The calibration section is where all of the work is done. Continuous readings are available and the data is not persistent. Only the data necessary for reporting is saved. This seemed to me at the time--and still seems--a logical approach.

However, I am always open to suggestions.
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