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Computer Output - to - Receiver Input

post #1 of 61
3/28/12 at 5:31pm
Thread Starter 
BACKGROUND: All my digital music files are in uncompressed WAV format. I control these through Media Monkey software, which I currently listen to through only my computer speakers. My question is about how best to get high-quality sound (at least 24-bit, 96-kHz; hopefully even 24-bit, 192-kHz) from one's computer to a high-quality A/V receiver, which is located in another room.

SOUND SYSTEM: My main sound system (in a different room than the computer) consists of a Marantz 6003 A/V receiver and, for music, a 2.1 speaker system (L&R monitors a subwoofer), and two surrounds for movies only. Connected to the Multichannel analog inputs on the receiver is an Oppo-83SE CD/Blu-ray player. The receiver has analog, HDMI and S/PIDF Toshlink optical inputs.

COMPUTER: I built my computer using an Intel DH67BL motherboard, which has a Realtek ALC892 audio codec and outputs through (1) standard minijack speaker outs, (2) S/PIDF Toshlink optical output, and/or (3) HDMI out.

ISSUE: As I began to consider running the music files through my A/V receiver, I researched the idea of purchasing an audiophile-grade (not for games, just music) computer sound card (24-bit, 192k-Hz capable) having RCA-jack audio outputs. Apparently ASUS makes an excellent such product, the Xonar Essence STX; I'm sure there are others. And then it occurred to me that all such sound cards incorporate D/A conversion circuitry to convert the digital signal to analog, thereby feeding an analog signal to the outboard preamp or receiver. I my case, however, since my computer motherboard incorporates an S/PIDF Toshlink optical output, why not nix the purchase of a separate sound card and instead run a Toshlink optical cable from the computer to the Toshlink optical cable input on the receiver? Or, perhaps, I could instead run an HDMI cable between my computer and the A/V receiver, but my intent is for high-quality audio, not video.

Of course, in using a Toshlink optical or HDMI connection I would then be using the receiver's D/A converter circuitry rather than that on a sound card, but I suspect that the D/A converter circuitry in my $1300 receiver should be at least a good as that in the $200 ASUS (or other) sound card.

Is there any opinion on these (or other) alternative methods of bringing high-quality sound to my Marantz 6003 A/V receiver from the computer?

Thank you,

Howard
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post #2 of 61
3/28/12 at 5:37pm
Potential issue is unbalanced analog out from the sound card to the receiver. You can get long RCA cables but the longer you run the more potential problem you will have.

What would the cable length be looking like?
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post #3 of 61
3/28/12 at 6:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

What would the cable length be looking like?

+1

There are limits to how long you should run HDMI and optical. Consequently, some kind of streaming device hooked to your receiver may be your best option.
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post #4 of 61
3/28/12 at 7:09pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

+1

There are limits to how long you should run HDMI and optical. Consequently, some kind of streaming device hooked to your receiver may be your best option.

It was my understanding that optical, in particular, allowed for long cable lengths -- up to 100 ft, which, of course, one would never do with standard RCA-type cables. No?
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post #5 of 61
3/28/12 at 7:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by haverbach View Post

It was my understanding that optical, in particular, allowed for long cable lengths -- up to 100 ft, which, of course, one would never do with standard RCA-type cables. No?

Hi Howard,

A single optical cable up to 100 feet might work fine, but if you insert a few couplers, then you might be pushing it. I have found optical to be not as "inside-the-wall" friendly as coax, either analog or digital.

I would bet that your motherboard, if it supports optical, also supports S/PDIF over coax. That would give you the same quality as optical, but is more likely to survive the distance. We still don't know what that distance is, however.

The potential problem with S/PDIF over coax is from a ground-loop, and analog audio would have the same potential problem. But many coaxial S/PDIF inputs are AC coupled and isolated, so you are less likely to have a ground-loop problem with S/PDIF. Of course, ground-loops are never a problem with optical.

I would recommended S/PDIF, either optical or coax.
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post #6 of 61
3/28/12 at 9:16pm
Thread Starter 
Thank you for the information on optical cables.

What is the opinion on the more general issue of using the S/PDIF output on my computer motherboard instead of purchasing a dedicated sound card, such as the well-regarded ASUS card mentioned above?

That ASUS sound card also has an S/PDIF output (in addition to RCA and others). Is there any reason to believe that optical output from the ASUS card shuld be different that the S/PDIF output on the motherboard?

Thanks,

Howard
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post #7 of 61
3/28/12 at 9:23pm
Some people will say yes there may be a difference, but others will say it will be inaudible if there is one. Best thing to do is try it for yourself and make your own decision.
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post #8 of 61
3/28/12 at 11:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by haverbach View Post

. . . Is there any reason to believe that optical output from the ASUS card shuld be different that the S/PDIF output on the motherboard?

Hi Howard,

As Cel said, some will say yes. I would normally say no. Digital is digital, and there should be no difference from one S/PDIF and another.

Having said that, there is always the "Windows" question. The data arriving at the S/PDIF port may be different, depending on the windows driver and other windows software issues. WinXP, for example, has a lossy path through its mixer. You would hope that a more expensive card would have a more trustworthy driver, but I wouldn't bet on it.

I would try the motherboard's S/PDIF first. If it doesn't work out, then I would look for an audio card. But if things are as they should be (big if), a sound-card's S/PDIF would be no different than the motherboard's S/PDIF. They both should provide identical bitstreams.
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post #9 of 61
3/28/12 at 11:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by haverbach View Post

BACKGROUND: All my digital music files are in uncompressed WAV format. I control these through Media Monkey software, which I currently listen to through only my computer speakers. My question is about how best to get high-quality sound (at least 24-bit, 96-kHz; hopefully even 24-bit, 192-kHz) from one's computer to a high-quality A/V receiver, which is located in another room.

SOUND SYSTEM: My main sound system (in a different room than the computer) consists of a Marantz 6003 A/V receiver and, for music, a 2.1 speaker system (L&R monitors a subwoofer), and two surrounds for movies only. Connected to the Multichannel analog inputs on the receiver is an Oppo-83SE CD/Blu-ray player. The receiver has analog, HDMI and S/PIDF Toshlink optical inputs.

COMPUTER: I built my computer using an Intel DH67BL motherboard, which has a Realtek ALC892 audio codec and outputs through (1) standard minijack speaker outs, (2) S/PIDF Toshlink optical output, and/or (3) HDMI out.

ISSUE: As I began to consider running the music files through my A/V receiver, I researched the idea of purchasing an audiophile-grade (not for games, just music) computer sound card (24-bit, 192k-Hz capable) having RCA-jack audio outputs. Apparently ASUS makes an excellent such product, the Xonar Essence STX; I'm sure there are others. And then it occurred to me that all such sound cards incorporate D/A conversion circuitry to convert the digital signal to analog, thereby feeding an analog signal to the outboard preamp or receiver. I my case, however, since my computer motherboard incorporates an S/PIDF Toshlink optical output, why not nix the purchase of a separate sound card and instead run a Toshlink optical cable from the computer to the Toshlink optical cable input on the receiver? Or, perhaps, I could instead run an HDMI cable between my computer and the A/V receiver, but my intent is for high-quality audio, not video.

Of course, in using a Toshlink optical or HDMI connection I would then be using the receiver's D/A converter circuitry rather than that on a sound card, but I suspect that the D/A converter circuitry in my $1300 receiver should be at least a good as that in the $200 ASUS (or other) sound card.

Is there any opinion on these (or other) alternative methods of bringing high-quality sound to my Marantz 6003 A/V receiver from the computer?

Thank you,

Howard

Is there any reason why you can't either:

1) Move the current computer closer, or

2) Pick up/build/procure a small computer that would connect to your Oppo or Marantz? There are many Small Form Factor computers that are inaudible from 1 foot away and run at under 50 watts total so heat isn't an issue. Either connection would be using your projector or large screen as the computer monitor.

You could then either connect the two computers with a network cable (limit of 100 Meters) or wirelessly.
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post #10 of 61
3/29/12 at 5:58am
I have both a directly connected computer and receiver/amp for strictly 2 channel listening and a Logitech Squeezebox in the basement theater. My recommendation would be to get the squeezebox and forego running long cables. It's easy, convenient, sounds great and can be controlled via smartphone app. It will allow not only your own collection but a multitude of Internet streaming options.
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post #11 of 61
3/29/12 at 6:06am
Toslink should work in your case IF it is a single cable with connector at each end. You can't splice it. You can make longer wire with coax SPDIF. You do not need expensive audio card for this. Any cheap one with SPDIF interface will work. You can use regular antenna type coax cable with it.
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post #12 of 61
3/29/12 at 6:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkHotchkiss View Post

Having said that, there is always the "Windows" question. The data arriving at the S/PDIF port may be different, depending on the windows driver and other windows software issues. WinXP, for example, has a lossy path through its mixer. You would hope that a more expensive card would have a more trustworthy driver, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Most players have techniques or plugins to bypass any windows sound processing, so this shouldn't be an issue. I use foobar2000. As for hardware and drivers, the best we can do is keep them up to date, anything else is out of our control.
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post #13 of 61
3/29/12 at 6:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

I have both a directly connected computer and receiver/amp for strictly 2 channel listening and a Logitech Squeezebox in the basement theater. My recommendation would be to get the squeezebox and forego running long cables. It's easy, convenient, sounds great and can be controlled via smartphone app. It will allow not only your own collection but a multitude of Internet streaming options.

Logitech device is nice, but he has network player option in receiver. All he needs is DLNA server application running in his PC, if he wants to go this route.
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post #14 of 61
3/29/12 at 6:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ap1 View Post

Logitech device is nice, but he has network player option in receiver. All he needs is DLNA server application running in his PC, if he wants to go this route.

Even so, Logitech Media Server is one of the best there is, and the multitude of plugins is hard to beat.

haverbach, have you considered DLNA? MediaMonkey 4 does have DLNA/UPnP server capabilities.
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post #15 of 61
3/29/12 at 7:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ap1 View Post

Logitech device is nice, but he has network player option in receiver. All he needs is DLNA server application running in his PC, if he wants to go this route.

He should certainly try this since it's a zero cost option, cheaper than buying an optical cable.
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post #16 of 61
3/29/12 at 7:42am
The receiver has no ethernet port and no indication of built-in wireless. Kinda necessary for DLNA.
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post #17 of 61
3/29/12 at 11:32am
Thread Starter 
Thanks everyone, though some of what you are writing is a little beyond me.

I have definitely heard of the "Squeezebox", but do not know how it fits -- wire for wire -- into my situation.

I currenly have "Media Monkey" on my computer. I use it to control the music going to my computer speakers; however, I am told that it has lots of capabilities for running a more sophisticated system into my livingroom audio setup, as I wish to do.

The idea of purchasing a second, small, computer, or even a laptop is ok with me, money is not the prime issue, but I do not know how to get the signal from the livingroom sofa/coffee table (so to speak) to the A/V receiver. Obviously some streaming equipment is needed, but my knowledge of audio "high tech", which began in the early 1960s, has not caught up to servers, ethernet cables, and the like. (It's only been a year or so since I moved from a turntable and vinyl records to the Oppo-83-SE CD/Blu-ray player.) (I'm very old.)

My Marantz 6003 receiver is a few years old; the current model is the 6006. I do not believe there have been any material changes to the amplification function (sound is very good), but features for digital music have evolved. Are you suggesting that if replace my 6003 with a 6006 that many of the functionalites that I need to accomplish my goal of creating a music server will already be built in to the newer 6006 receiver? I don't know what these may be, but perhaps the newer model has ethernet input and/or whatever else would be necessary or helpful. Or perhaps I'm leaping too far. Any suggestions?

Thank you,

Howard
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post #18 of 61
3/29/12 at 12:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkHotchkiss View Post

Hi Howard,

Aal, also supports S/PDIF over coax. That would give you the same quality as optical, but is more likely to survive the distance. We still don't know what that distance is, however.

The potential problem with S/PDIF over coax is from a ground-loop, and analog audio would have the same potential problem. But many coaxial S/PDIF inputs are AC coupled and isolated, so you are less likely to have a ground-loop problem with S/PDIF. Of course, ground-loops are never a problem with optical.

I would recommended S/PDIF, either optical or coax.


used spdif coax 35 ft with no issues..........good luck
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post #19 of 61
3/29/12 at 2:59pm
If you have either wired ethernet near your receiver, or wireless in your home, you would simply plug the Logitech Squeezebox Touch into your receiver via analog RCA, digital toslink or digital coax, then connect it to your network (ethernet cable or wireless). On your PC, install the software. Logitech Media Server is pointed to the folders where your music is stored, just as MediaMonkey is. You then control access to your library from either your computer or the Squeezebox, or smartphone app.

It really is quite easy, and a great little box.
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post #20 of 61
3/29/12 at 3:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by haverbach View Post

Thanks everyone, though some of what you are writing is a little beyond me.

I have definitely heard of the "Squeezebox", but do not know how it fits -- wire for wire -- into my situation.

I currenly have "Media Monkey" on my computer. I use it to control the music going to my computer speakers; however, I am told that it has lots of capabilities for running a more sophisticated system into my livingroom audio setup, as I wish to do.

The idea of purchasing a second, small, computer, or even a laptop is ok with me, money is not the prime issue, but I do not know how to get the signal from the livingroom sofa/coffee table (so to speak) to the A/V receiver. Obviously some streaming equipment is needed, but my knowledge of audio "high tech", which began in the early 1960s, has not caught up to servers, ethernet cables, and the like. (It's only been a year or so since I moved from a turntable and vinyl records to the Oppo-83-SE CD/Blu-ray player.) (I'm very old.)

My Marantz 6003 receiver is a few years old; the current model is the 6006. I do not believe there have been any material changes to the amplification function (sound is very good), but features for digital music have evolved. Are you suggesting that if replace my 6003 with a 6006 that many of the functionalites that I need to accomplish my goal of creating a music server will already be built in to the newer 6006 receiver? I don't know what these may be, but perhaps the newer model has ethernet input and/or whatever else would be necessary or helpful. Or perhaps I'm leaping too far. Any suggestions?

Thank you,

Howard

Correct me if I'm wrong, but both your Marantz and Oppo have HDMI and Toslink connections, so (if correct) you can easily connect a computer, having either of these connections as well. I do it now with my humble Yamaha 667, but not in the same league as others down here in the 2 channel forum. My computer is "Rolled at home" using the guidance of Renethx and Assassin in the HTPC forum above. You'll also note an Audiphile plug in for the Computer, but...why don't I let you explore that rather than appear to be a shill.

Another gentleman who seems to frequent down here, Rdgrimes, has provided some very helpful guidance on 2 channel. which I have integrated with the Computer and aforementioned Yamaha. As I learn I also share with others.
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post #21 of 61
3/29/12 at 4:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

It really is quite easy, and a great little box.

+1

I used to have a Logitech Squeezebox Classic before I setup my HTPC. They work very well. I used to export my Media Monkey playlists as m3u files, and then Squeezebox could use them.
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post #22 of 61
3/29/12 at 6:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by haverbach View Post

It was my understanding that optical, in particular, allowed for long cable lengths -- up to 100 ft, which, of course, one would never do with standard RCA-type cables. No?

An optical digital cable (aka Toslink) is limited to a max of 20 foot in length.

A coax digital cable can go much further.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toslink

Under "Properties and issues" you'll find: <"TOSLINK cables can temporarily fail or be permanently damaged if tightly bent. Their high light-signal attenuation limits their effective range to about 6 metres (20 ft).">
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post #23 of 61
3/29/12 at 7:26pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

If you have either wired ethernet near your receiver, or wireless in your home, you would simply plug the Logitech Squeezebox Touch into your receiver via analog RCA, digital toslink or digital coax, then connect it to your network (ethernet cable or wireless). On your PC, install the software. Logitech Media Server is pointed to the folders where your music is stored, just as MediaMonkey is. You then control access to your library from either your computer or the Squeezebox, or smartphone app.

It really is quite easy, and a great little box.


Doesn't sound too difficult. I do have Verizon FiOS service for TV, Internet and telephone. It includes a router/modem, but I've never used any of the wireless functionality. Nevertheless, by your message (see above), it would appear that I'm "ready to go" with nothing more than the Squeezebox-touch.

My computer motherboard has only one Ethernet connector. Currently, it is connected to my Verizon router/modem. The Verizon router/modem is, in turn, connected to my Verizon cable box. But the Verizon router/modem has other Ethernet connectors, so I guess the Squeezebox would connect into one of these.

BUT ONE CRITICAL ISSUE REMAINS.
I just reviewed the Logitech Squezebox website. It appears that the Squeezebox unit with its touchscreen sits on the cabinet with the rest of one's audio/video equipment. But the user, naturally, is sitting on his sofa across the room from his audio/video cabinet. Yes, there is a remote control, but noone (especially at my age) could see the 3" screen on the Squeezebox unit from across the room. And, from the images on the Logitech website, I see no VIDEO output on the Squeezebox unit to connect to one's TV. So how does one browse and select music from across the room if using a Squeezebox?

Thank you,

Howard
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post #24 of 61
3/29/12 at 9:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by haverbach View Post

So how does one browse and select music from across the room if using a Squeezebox?

Use a smartphone or tablet app, if you one of those.

An alternative is Boxee, which is both an audio and video streaming device. I don't know if it has quite the nice media player interface that Squeezebox can offer on a computer, smartphone, or tablet. But it will let you browse through your music files on your PC via your TV display and play them through your receiver.
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post #25 of 61
3/30/12 at 5:41am
How were you planning to sit on your couch and control your computer and Mediamonkey?
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post #26 of 61
3/30/12 at 5:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by haverbach View Post


Doesn't sound too difficult. I do have Verizon FiOS service for TV, Internet and telephone. It includes a router/modem, but I've never used any of the wireless functionality. Nevertheless, by your message (see above), it would appear that I'm "ready to go" with nothing more than the Squeezebox-touch.

My computer motherboard has only one Ethernet connector. Currently, it is connected to my Verizon router/modem. The Verizon router/modem is, in turn, connected to my Verizon cable box. But the Verizon router/modem has other Ethernet connectors, so I guess the Squeezebox would connect into one of these.

BUT ONE CRITICAL ISSUE REMAINS.
I just reviewed the Logitech Squezebox website. It appears that the Squeezebox unit with its touchscreen sits on the cabinet with the rest of one's audio/video equipment. But the user, naturally, is sitting on his sofa across the room from his audio/video cabinet. Yes, there is a remote control, but noone (especially at my age) could see the 3" screen on the Squeezebox unit from across the room. And, from the images on the Logitech website, I see no VIDEO output on the Squeezebox unit to connect to one's TV. So how does one browse and select music from across the room if using a Squeezebox?

Thank you,

Howard

If you have Android or Apple phone or tablet, there is a FREE application to control Squezeebox devices. This is the best way to manage your music. Many other modern players, receivers and TVs also have phone/tablet control applications.
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post #27 of 61
3/30/12 at 6:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ap1 View Post

If you have Android or Apple phone or tablet, there is a FREE application to control Squezeebox devices. This is the best way to manage your music. Many other modern players, receivers and TVs also have phone/tablet control applications.

Off topic, but a big +1 to the above comment. I have remote control apps for most of my audio and video devices - Roku, WD HD, Google TV, Boxee, my Dish receiver, Squeezebox, Onkyo receiver, Panasonic blu-ray, Foobar2000, Winamp...

In other words, I live in geek heaven
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post #28 of 61
3/30/12 at 6:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ap1 View Post

If you have Android or Apple phone or tablet, there is a FREE application to control Squezeebox devices. This is the best way to manage your music. Many other modern players, receivers and TVs also have phone/tablet control applications.

+2.

Squeezebox is a no-brainer solution to the OP's questions.

OP, I feel for you on the at our age not being able to read the SB Touch's screen from across the room (what were the designers thinking? Obviously, they're all under 40, or they never looked at the thing from more than 5 feet away, because it starts to get unreadable from about 7 feet, even with the big lettering enabled). The obvious and very simple solution is the smart phone app and/or using a tablet PC or iPad. The iPad in particular works great and makes album art actually approach the size of actual album art, a welcome change from CD art.
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post #29 of 61
3/30/12 at 6:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

How were you planning to sit on your couch and control your computer and Mediamonkey?

Good point.
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post #30 of 61
3/30/12 at 10:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

Off topic, but a big +1 to the above comment. I have remote control apps for most of my audio and video devices - Roku, WD HD, Google TV, Boxee, my Dish receiver, Squeezebox, Onkyo receiver, Panasonic blu-ray, Foobar2000, Winamp...

In other words, I live in geek heaven

You have all those streaming capable devices. LOL

Seriously, though, you should post a little review and let us know about the differences between 'em

I probably shouldn't laugh. I own a smartphone, HTPC, two desktop computers, an original Eee PC, a newer Eee PC, a full-sized laptop, an iPad 2, a Nook, and a Samsung Galaxy Tab 7.0 Plus. And then an HT audio 5.1 setup, a 2.1 and 2.0 systems in the house (LOL).
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