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Anyone care to speculate on the new 4k disc format? - Page 4

post #91 of 107
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

One of the 16 levels of HEVC is 800,000 kbps, which is 781.25 mbps - though the one they use for 4K Blu-ray is most likely to be a lot less. It's not that they can't function at certain bitrates, it's more like they set limits / different profiles with different max bitrates for different consumer devices.


They're formats (especially 25p) a lot more widely used than 48p. Though they can already be stored in the interlaced formats (50i & 60i) - except when using 3D. 50p and 60p at full resolution would be a lot better - than 25p/30p.

I'm thinking of the next 4k format where they could, if thinking ahead, include multiple full progressive frame rates [like 24, 25 (PAL), 30, 48, 50 (PAL), and 60] so interlaced video is no longer required except for those few instances where the content was actually shot that way.

Keep the video native. Keep it progressive.
post #92 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

I'm thinking of the next 4k format where they could, if thinking ahead, include multiple full progressive frame rates [like 24, 25 (PAL), 30, 48, 50 (PAL), and 60] so interlaced video is no longer required except for those few instances where the content was actually shot that way.

I agree, that's the best way. They wouldn't need to include the interlaced formats in the the format either as long as they included 50p and 60p and de-interlaced 50i and 60i content to them.

Though 4K, especially on a bigger screen, at 50p/60p is going to look more juddery/stroby than lower resolutions at those rates, so they should include higher rates than 60p in it too (eg. 100/120 fps).

Though knowing the broadcasters they'd most likely have their format output everything at a single frame rate and convert everything to that .
post #93 of 107
Thread Starter 
Joe,

If the BDA chooses to shoehorn UHD into 50 GB discs rather than increasing disc capacity and bitrate while upgrading the resolution, I very much doubt we'll see anything higher than 60p... if that.

It really could mean only UHD at 24p (maybe 3D using an H.265 variant of MVC) and vanilla 8 bit 4:2:0 video and that's it.

I'd be super pissed if they pulled that stunt.
post #94 of 107
If this Consumer Electronics Daily 5/2/2012 article (link) is correct, it's hard to imagine a timetable for release of "BDA approved" 4K2K disks and players that has them in consumer hands by the end of 2013 (as it seems LG suggested at CES 2012), although I suppose we might see 'meets draft standard' models for sale that promise firmware upgrade to final standard compliance at some future date...?!
Quote:


Blu-ray 'Obvious Medium' for 4K On Physical Disc, BDA Says
By Paul Gluckman
The Blu-ray Disc Association has yet to field a "formal proposal" to incorporate native 4K or 8K video into the Blu-ray specifications, Pioneer executive Andy Parsons, the BDA's chief U.S. spokesman, told us Monday. [...]


post #95 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

Joe,

If the BDA chooses to shoehorn UHD into 50 GB discs rather than increasing disc capacity and bitrate while upgrading the resolution, I very much doubt we'll see anything higher than 60p... if that.

They can increase the bit rate by 50% using a 2X speed drive like they do for 3D BD.

Quote:


It really could mean only UHD at 24p (maybe 3D using an H.265 variant of MVC) and vanilla 8 bit 4:2:0 video and that's it.

I'd be super pissed if they pulled that stunt.

IMO . . . be prepared to be super pissed
post #96 of 107
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

They can increase the bit rate by 50% using a 2X speed drive like they do for 3D BD.

However, if they don't increase the data storage size from BD-50's while substantially increasing the resolution, (possibly) increasing the color space, (possibly) adding higher frame rates, Full UHD 3D, etc. will it even matter?
post #97 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

However, if they don't increase the data storage size from BD-50's while substantially increasing the resolution, (possibly) increasing the color space, (possibly) adding higher frame rates, Full UHD 3D, etc. will it even matter?

IMO, they can use a BD 50 with H.265, a 50% increase in the bit rate, 4K resolution, 24 FPS and continue to use 8 bit 4:2:0.

They will toot their horn about 4K having 4X the resolution of HD which BTW isn't true. It has 4X the pixel count per frame, but the increase in actual resolution is much less than that.

I just don't see the Hollywood studios going along with giving consumers the same quality that they use themselves - ie; professional video.
post #98 of 107
Those are the same fears I had with BD. Why would studios want to give consumers the best versions possible on our new television standards? I think some studios are intentionally releasing less than stellar BDs so they can go back to the well at a later date to sell a new 'remastered' versions of popular titles. I just can't see the studios truly giving consumers a 4K disc that is close to their masters.
post #99 of 107
Deep Color has been supported ever since HDMI 1.3 came about. Yet to date, there is no HD content that contains Deep Color.
post #100 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toknowshita View Post

Those are the same fears I had with BD. Why would studios want to give consumers the best versions possible on our new television standards? I think some studios are intentionally releasing less than stellar BDs so they can go back to the well at a later date to sell a new 'remastered' versions of popular titles. I just can't see the studios truly giving consumers a 4K disc that is close to their masters.

However, the opposite strategy might make sense for TV-on-BD in a couple of years: Imagine filming A Game of Thrones in either 4K2K (sooner!) or 8K4K (later!) for 1920x1080 OTA|cable broadcasting, and then using the '4x resolution' of BD4K disk compared to the original broadcast in order to bump up subsequent complete season disk sales . . . "watch it again at home on BD4K disk with both additional|extended scenes and better picture quality than the original airing".
post #101 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

My whole point here is that a 4k service is far away and the reason is not just technology. It's not just around the corner as some people here think.
P.S. II work in the post production business and have a lot of insight on this.

I see that on 5/15/2012 NHK announced they have successfully managed an 8K4K video test terrestrial broadcast transmission 2.6 miles across Tokyo using just two regular UHF TV channels (UHF31+UHF34). This suggests to me that the technical issues for 4K2K broadcasting using just one existing UHF channel are already essentially reduced in scope to a series of engineering problems, but that, based on the issue raised in several countries of whether next generation TV should have 8K4K video or just 4K2K, it seems like NHK is looking to provide a finished solution that meets both options . . . and likely one that offers those broadcasters who select 4K2K initially an "easy" migration path to 8K4K at a future time of their own choosing.


Edited by SoundChex - 6/9/12 at 9:42pm
post #102 of 107
Sony’s Marty, BDA’s Parsons Talk Blu-ray
Quote:
Q: Apple has made a point of saying that its new retina displays actually have more pixels than an HDTV, suggesting the picture quality is better than Blu-ray. Do you think Blu-ray will be able to become more high-def with greater resolution? Is there a next-gen HD in the works?

Parsons: We are already at the maximum resolution available for the HDTV systems currently in use around the world (1080p), so the only way to become “more high def” would be to incorporate 4K resolution into the format. At present, the BDA is not working on a 4K version of Blu-ray, but if and when the time comes to do that, we believe the 50GB capacity should allow us to accommodate the much higher data rates that 4K sources require.
Quote:
Q: Is there a roadmap within BDA to upgrade Blu-ray specs for putting 4K and 8K native video on a BD disc? Is there still no call to do so? If so, why not? One supposition is that many may feel physical media such as BD won't survive long enough to see 4K and 8K content become a reality for the home, and that's why there's no call to upgrade BD. Is that the case?

Parsons: As I’ve said before, there is currently no plan to add 4K or 8K to the Blu-ray specs, so there is no official roadmap for them. But bear in mind that we still don't even have 100% penetration of HDTV sets in the U.S. (currently about 75% or so), so we're still out there promoting the benefits of HDTV to those who haven't taken the plunge yet. The home theater folks are, as always, at the bleeding edge of technology, and it's understandable that those who are clued into 4K are eager to put it to use. If and when we do decide to develop a 4K version of Blu-ray, however, I'm confident that only packaged media will have the capacity and throughput needed to do it justice, since it contains four times the picture information as 1080p — the average U.S. household bandwidth of 5 Mbps is simply not fast enough to handle 1080p reliably, let alone 4K.

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/blu-ray-disc/sony-s-marty-bda-s-parsons-talk-blu-ray-27515
post #103 of 107
Looks like they will NEED to use triple or quad layer at last (not BDXL!).

"Blu-ray continuing as a specific format, much higher capacity than you see today, with 4K, 3D and other potential features being standard."
post #104 of 107
Not sure if this has been discussed but Im wondering if anyone knows what resolution the hobbit master will be released to the theaters in-2k or 4k. I know it was filmed in 5k but I dont believe its possible to release a 4k master of the hfr 3d version. Been looking everywhere for an answer to this.
post #105 of 107
Thread Starter 
Well, supposedly Peter Jackson had all visual effects rendered at 4k, HFR, and 3D. Hence the need for two supporting studios to cover the massive bill. The master, at least, seems to be all that and the kitchen sink. I would assume, due to the high cost to the theater chains per screen to get ready for 48 fps and 3D, the new equipment will accommodate the best as currently possible. However, the passive 3D enabled 4k displays themselves may only support 2k for each eye. That will be the only roadblock. For passive 3D you'd need 8k projectors to get 4k for each eye. That won't be happening any time soon.

In the 3D section of the forum, there was a list made available of all the formats for which The Hobbit will be shown. So far, there will be no 2D HFR presentations. I'd like to see that as a comparison, since I don't really go for 3D.

If MPEG-5 H.265 has a Multi View Codec (MVC) sub set like today's MPEG-4 H.264 on Blu-ray (enabling 1080p for each eye), then you could, in theory, have an active shutter 3D 4k display for the home with 4k available for each eye. I don't see why they wouldn't make this available.

The trouble is this... with the BDA dragging its feet on their own 4k media disc, there are companies (like RED) swooping in to fill the void. This could spell another long, drawn out format war, I fear.

RED's 4k media player, using their proprietary REDCode, does allow for 10 bit and even 12 bit 4k content. The BDA probably would stick with the same 8 bit, 4:2:0 junk to cram as much as they could on the current 50 GB discs. Sony's 4k encoding of The Amazing Spider-Man, probably using H.265, was only 56 GB, but I would suspect it was compressed to within an inch of its life. That was for demonstration purposes of their new 4k flat panel.
post #106 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

Well, supposedly Peter Jackson had all visual effects rendered at 4k, HFR, and 3D. Hence the need for two supporting studios to cover the massive bill. The master, at least, seems to be all that and the kitchen sink. I would assume, due to the high cost to the theater chains per screen to get ready for 48 fps and 3D, the new equipment will accommodate the best as currently possible. However, the passive 3D enabled 4k displays themselves may only support 2k for each eye. That will be the only roadblock. For passive 3D you'd need 8k projectors to get 4k for each eye. That won't be happening any time soon.
In the 3D section of the forum, there was a list made available of all the formats for which The Hobbit will be shown. So far, there will be no 2D HFR presentations. I'd like to see that as a comparison, since I don't really go for 3D.
If MPEG-5 H.265 has a Multi View Codec (MVC) sub set like today's MPEG-4 H.264 on Blu-ray (enabling 1080p for each eye), then you could, in theory, have an active shutter 3D 4k display for the home with 4k available for each eye. I don't see why they wouldn't make this available.
The trouble is this... with the BDA dragging its feet on their own 4k media disc, there are companies (like RED) swooping in to fill the void. This could spell another long, drawn out format war, I fear.
RED's 4k media player, using their proprietary REDCode, does allow for 10 bit and even 12 bit 4k content. The BDA probably would stick with the same 8 bit, 4:2:0 junk to cram as much as they could on the current 50 GB discs. Sony's 4k encoding of The Amazing Spider-Man, probably using H.265, was only 56 GB, but I would suspect it was compressed to within an inch of its life. That was for demonstration purposes of their new 4k flat panel.

what do you think about these comments taken from a couple other hobbit threads:

"An IMB (integrated media block) is also required for 4K 3D or HFR 2D (the hobbit is not being released in HFR 2D), a projector without an IMB can play 4k or 2K 3D but for presentations beyond that will need an IMB. Right now 4K HFR 3D is beyond the capacity of an IMB and the file size of a 3 hr feature in 4K HFR 3D would exceed the capacity of harddrives certified with the IMB system, so a solution is not in the immediate offing."

"here are some contradictory info being posted within the film industry community, but the seems that by those best informed makes it most likely that it is only 2K 3D.

The reasons might be several.
1: There is not enough time to render out 4K HFR 3D to reach cinemas in time for opening. (I believe the production really wish they had some extra months before locking off the post production). Even IMAX might resort to up-rez for those locations that have 4K projectors.
2: The The servers and IMBs are upgraded to 2K 48fps 3D, but are not able to handle the increased data amount of 4K 48fps 3D. This might change for the next instalment.
3: The 4K DLP projectors should be able to handle 4K 48fps 3D = 96fps without internal processor-board upgrades, but are limited by the before mentioned IMBs, but the Sony 4K projectors are not able to handle 4K 3D at all, and maybe not even 96fps because the Lcos panels are to slow. I am in doubt that the Sony Lcos will ever be able to do 4K 3D at all. By this I mean 4K 3D with full 4K resolution for each eye in HFR 3D.
Best solution anyway both for DLP and Lcos is dual stack projections"

Also, you mention passive but expand 3d is active
post #107 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

The trouble is this... with the BDA dragging its feet on their own 4k media disc, there are companies (like RED) swooping in to fill the void. This could spell another long, drawn out format war, I fear.
RED has never released a consumer product before and though they are taking REDRAY pre-orders they still haven't announced what studios will support it. I think there is a good chance that REDRAY could end up like D-Theater.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

RED's 4k media player, using their proprietary REDCode, does allow for 10 bit and even 12 bit 4k content. The BDA probably would stick with the same 8 bit, 4:2:0 junk to cram as much as they could on the current 50 GB discs.
The RED video standard is proprietary and there are no other products that support playback of it besides RED products. As for the 4K version of Blu-ray hopefully it will support the Main 10 profile of HEVC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

Sony's 4k encoding of The Amazing Spider-Man, probably using H.265, was only 56 GB, but I would suspect it was compressed to within an inch of its life. That was for demonstration purposes of their new 4k flat panel.
The Amazing Spiderman is a 136 minute movie so at 56 GB it would have an average AV bit rate of 55.3 Mbps. In comparison REDRAY will use a bit rate of 20 Mbps. The RED video standard is currently a question mark since we don't know much about it or how it would compare in compression efficiency to MPEG-4 AVC.
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