Alternatives to Casablanca III - Page 5

Originally Posted by edorr

No one says the 2.5K Onkyo is at par with the ADA (we don't know how they compare). I am just saying that your assertion that an ADA level SSP cannot be build and marketed for $2,500 because of the cost of components is incorrect.

Originally Posted by thebland

Maybe but the Mona Lisa has likely $10 in paint and a canvas but its value is far greater. Doesn't who used those paints and canvas matter??? A piece like the ADA< Classe' or Theta are valued far more than the sum of their parts. It's many times not the parts, but how you use them.

Just 2 days ago, you told us this was impossible because of the high cost of components, but you have now made a 180 degrees U-Turn on that position.

Originally Posted by edorr

THis is what I said, "...Onkyo is just an amalgam of cheap parts for the mass market that is Best Buy's bread and butta!".

It's still my thoughts.

Originally Posted by thebland

Then you destroy your brand. How dos it help Theta to offer Dirac for $395?? Or a new SSP for $2500?? It would destroy them as well as their reputation! Racing to the bottom isn't every manufacturer's goal.

Originally Posted by edorr

Of course Theta would not do this. We are talking about a new player entering the market, or Emotiva or Outlaw building an ADA caliber processor for $2000.

Originally Posted by thebland


I just don't see a reason to demo a new Onkyo. Yes yesterday's $25K is today's $10K but the $25K SSP has not been replaced by the $2.5K Onkyo in my estimation. I don't have the inclination to try it out either. Many times with an SSP it ended up being worth the price.this!

Originally Posted by thebland

Blu Ray is a great example of a wholesale change and improvement in disc players - allowing significantly better picture, sound, networking, streaming, etc. My Denon player was $2000 as things got started and now you can buy a competent player for $200 - $300 (or less) with far more features and good performance... but the market for source players is exponentially larger than SSPs. SSPs are niche products but players are mainstream. That's why they'll remain expensive in the high end. The high end is still doing well - just ask Craig at Theatermax!

Originally Posted by tjk3030

Why not just send a Theta CBIIIHD to China and have them clone it. Evidently they have done it with a ford 150 pickup truck

Originally Posted by Bulldogger

Even Oppo did not lead with the BDP-95. That player looks like they basically added the modifications that the after-market high-end modders were doing to the BDP-83.

The Chinese manufacture value products. Parasound designed high-end products and manufactured them in Taiwan. That's the mostly likely path for budget product. Classe is about to do the same.

Originally Posted by edorr

This is incidentally what Kal reported about the new Onkyo compared to his Integra.

Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson

I don't think I have ever reported on an Onkyo so I am not sure what comparison you are referring to.

Originally Posted by edorr

This is incidentally what Kal reported about the new Onkyo compared to his Integra.

Originally Posted by edorr

Onkyo / Integra - same thing. The Onkyo SC5508 or SC5509 is equivalent to the Integra 80.3.

Originally Posted by Roger Dressler

Which modders added Netflix streaming? Or changed the video processor chip?

Originally Posted by Roger Dressler


Same as what? That is not what Classe is doing.

Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson

I am not disputing that point but it is still unclear what you are referring to? Was it a comparison of the Integra 9.8 with the Integra 80.2?

Originally Posted by Bulldogger

Right? And Netflix streaming improved the audio quality which is why the TS started this thread?

Originally Posted by edorr


I think Roger is making the point that the 93/95 are both jam packed with new features and hence Oppo is in fact a highly innovative company. Whether that innovation is audio / video or function features is besides the point.

However interpreted narrowly, there is some thruth in your original claim ("Even Oppo did not lead with the BDP-95") because it pertains just to the 95, not Oppo as a company. You could say all the innovation went into the 93, and the 95 just took the innovative 93 platform, did to it what modders were doing to the 83, and labelled it the 95.

I would still say if a modded 93 costs 2 grand, and the 95 gives you the same level of performance for half the price, they improved price performence of high-end universal players by 100%, which is in and off itself "innovation", but now we are really into the semantics of the word innovation. May be commoditization would be a better word.

Originally Posted by Bulldogger

Right? And Netflix streaming improved the audio quality which is why the TS started this thread?

Originally Posted by Bulldogger

Well what exactly is Classe doing in China?

Originally Posted by moosik


I agree with that. My original question was whether or not there existed a lower priced alternative that would still give me the sound quality I've been getting from the 10-year-old CBIII Xtreme design. My hope was that this decade-old DAC quality has now made its way to the top lines of the mass-marketed processors, or to some economically-minded hi-fi companies (such as Oppo or Outlaw). It's clear that no one has been able to point me to a mutually-agreed-on example of such new processor. Edorr and I both believe that the time is right (technologically speaking), and the market is ripe, for a company like Oppo to design and market directly the $2000 hi-end processor.

I was not considering video processing, netflix streaming, and room correction as important criteria in my original post. Nevertheless, Audioguy's comments on the vast impact of room correction intrigued me. So I'll be comparing the CBIII to Integra both without and with room correction.

Originally Posted by moosik

I agree with that. My original question was whether or not there existed a lower priced alternative that would still give me the sound quality I've been getting from the 10-year-old CBIII Xtreme design. My hope was that this decade-old DAC quality has now made its way to the top lines of the mass-marketed processors, or to some economically-minded hi-fi companies (such as Oppo or Outlaw). It's clear that no one has been able to point me to a mutually-agreed-on example of such new processor. Edorr and I both believe that the time is right (technologically speaking), and the market is ripe, for a company like Oppo to design and market directly the $2000 hi-end processor.

I was not considering video processing, netflix streaming, and room correction as important criteria in my original post. Nevertheless, Audioguy's comments on the vast impact of room correction intrigued me. So I'll be comparing the CBIII to Integra both without and with room correction.

Originally Posted by Talk2Me

Regarding room correction, I would like to see/hear if a noticeable difference in sq between higher priced standalone room correction devices and the ones that come in a pre/pro or receiver.

Originally Posted by Roger Dressler

From my experience, the SQ differences are initially due to the target curve. Then the question is about altering it, if at all possible. The baseline Audyssey and ARC (Anthem) REQ's do not allow much, if any useful user adjustment. That's a deal killer IMHO. But Dirac and Trinnov allow a lot, as does Audyssey Pro but to a lesser extent.

Originally Posted by sierraalphahotel

Does anyone know if the spectrum for adjustment available in the Trinnov and the anticipated implementation of Dirac in the Theta are comparable in scale to that possible with one of the QSC DSPs often used by Adam Pelz and Dennis Erskine et al?

Originally Posted by Roger Dressler

Short answer: Yes, they are comparable in range.

Long answer: There are two aspects to adjustment. One is the corrective action applied by the automatic room EQ, and the other is the manual adjustments for target curve preference. In the case of QSC (or any manual PEQ) these are one in the same set of controls, so the scale (or range) is necessarily large enough to accommodate both functions.

The max corrective range of the automatic room EQ filterbank is rarely specified, but it is presumably sufficient to satisfy the algorithm's need for whatever is determined to be a correctable error. After that, the degree of adjustment can be much less than a manual PEQ because it only needs to deal with the human preference issues for alternative target curves. In addition, Trinnov and to a lesser extent Datasat, offer a separate set of manual EQs that can run separate from the room EQ and target curve controls.

There may also be other more subtle aspects to "adjustment" in that automatic EQ purveyors assert that their IIR/FIR filterbanks afford corrective actions more optimally suited to the task than PEQ. I have heard no evidence of that myself, but remain willing to be convinced; and I've seen evidence to the contrary (MultEQ XT). So in my book, if done well, a PEQ such as found in QSC, Synthesis, ADA, or even my humble SSP-800 are equally capable of achieving as much sonic benefit as Dirac or Trinnov, absent pathological flaws.

Ease of setup and fine tuning, now that's a whole different matter.

Originally Posted by sierraalphahotel

It is important to me to have a decent auto EQ from Theta's implementation of Dirac as I do not possess the knowledge or tools to take it much further than that. Of equal importance though is knowing that someone who has the expertise can take it further without significant restriction by the box (in my case by the CBIIIhd).