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4xIB318" vs two ported monsters - Page 3

post #61 of 94
BTW, eight 18's and 2 EP-4000's would be insane. You'd need some incredible mains to keep up. Distortion will be extremely low as they'll be just idling most of the time. You have no idea.
post #62 of 94
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cecaa850 View Post

It's a COMPLETELY different sound. Initially you catch yourself turning the gain up to where you think it sounds right. You put your meter on it and WOW, you're running it REALLY hot. After you get used to it you realize how absolutely clean the bass is compared to a ported box. When you listen to thunder in a movie, you hear every crack and nuance of the clap. It's not just a rumble any more, it sounds real. Before the IB, I was always wanting to upgrade or find out what's better as far as bass is concerned. I haven't thought once about doing something different since I built it.

Well Cecaa...between this and your next post, I think you have just pushed me over the edge.

Good point on the mains. I am sure the setup I am having built will keep up(I hope). The guys at Elemental Designs are in the process of building them now. The front three are upgraded versions of the cinema 12 with dual 12s and upgraded CD. The surrounds, rears and heights are single 12s upgraded CD as well. The are in the neighborhood fo 100db sensative witht he upgrades, so hopefully the will rip right along with the subs.

Your endorsement is really giving me the final push to at least experiment with the IB. I think I should start a thread at the cult to discuss placement, as I have limited options.
post #63 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

Well Cecaa...between this and your next post, I think you have just pushed me over the edge.

My work here is done. Welcome to the dark side.
post #64 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

I also like an idea that someone had in another thread..placing the sub amps in the room below with the back waves of the IB. Problem solved, no fan noise, can't see em, cheap power. Anyone see anything wrong with this??

Also, does anyone know anything about the differences between the ep and epx for berry??

Backwave for my 4 18's is basically crawlspace next to the front of my theater and I use this Belkin unit to remotely turn on and off the EP4000. There are slicker ways to do but this is very easy.

http://www.amazon.com/Belkin-BG10800.../dp/B001GQ2W6W

post #65 of 94
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCaboNow View Post

Backwave for my 4 18's is basically crawlspace next to the front of my theater and I use this Belkin unit to remotely turn on and off the EP4000. There are slicker ways to do but this is very easy.

http://www.amazon.com/Belkin-BG10800.../dp/B001GQ2W6W


Very cool, thank you!! That was going to be my next question. I had no idea how one would turn the amps off remotely when not in use.
post #66 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by cecaa850 View Post

It's a COMPLETELY different sound... Before the IB, I was always wanting to upgrade or find out what's better as far as bass is concerned. I haven't thought once about doing something different since I built it.

What did you have before the IB?

Maybe the difference is in the drivers' Vd, not the enclosure type.
post #67 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

What did you have before the IB?

Maybe the difference is in the drivers' Vd, not the enclosure type.

See response #54.
post #68 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCaboNow View Post

Backwave for my 4 18's is basically crawlspace next to the front of my theater and I use this Belkin unit to remotely turn on and off the EP4000. There are slicker ways to do but this is very easy.

http://www.amazon.com/Belkin-BG10800.../dp/B001GQ2W6W


I'd be suspect of such a device,..especially for an amplifier load,...and doubly so for a high current subwoofer amplifier. This will be an impediment to subwoofer performance. For low level components, such as pre pros, players etc, no issues. Not for amplification. Besides, an EP4000 can pull more amperage is some situations/loads/program material,....than this device is designed to pass. This is secondary, actually. The primary concern would be that it's a choke-point for current delivery.

Besides, switching an amplifier, it will wear out.


Just sayin'...




Thanks
post #69 of 94
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

I'd be suspect of such a device,..especially for an amplifier load,...and doubly so for a high current subwoofer amplifier. This will be an impediment to subwoofer performance. For low level components, such as pre pros, players etc, no issues. Not for amplification. Besides, an EP4000 can pull more amperage is some situations/loads/program material,....than this device is designed to pass. This is secondary, actually. The primary concern would be that it's a choke-point for current delivery.

Besides, switching an amplifier, it will wear out.


Just sayin'...




Thanks

Thanks for the insight on the device. What is the best method for turning the amps on and off, keeping in mind that they will be in another room??
post #70 of 94
I walk into the kitchen and flip the switch.
post #71 of 94
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cecaa850 View Post

I walk into the kitchen and flip the switch.

Touche sir...but I will still entertain other answers
post #72 of 94
If you're getting into the walls anyways, you can always install a switched outlet with the outlet by the amp and the switch in the HT on the wall.
post #73 of 94
Yes, a switched outlet, you're golden.

Be sure you go with 20amp spec grade devices, and ideally, up-sized wire (not a deal breaker, merely optimal).
post #74 of 94
Thread Starter 
Good call oon the switched outlet, I had not thought of that. I posted over on the cult about manifold design also.

FOH, I understand from my reading that the manifold sould be as short as possible from the base to the mouth, but also saw Thomas' build where he had the 12 drivers with a long manifold(3 drivers deep). I asked on there if this could be done without giving up much in the way of performance, and the answer to my question wasn't quite put out there. I was asked for layout pics, which I don't have yet, but am curious about this question on IB setups in general, not build specific. Thanks for any insight
post #75 of 94
From what I recall, the deep manifold was less than ideal. The drivers weren't working as one driver like in a conventional manifold due to the fact that the deepest drivers sound taking slightly longer to get to you than the shallowest drivers sound, if that makes sense. They weren't time aligned.

12 ga. romex will be fine on a 20 amp breaker.
post #76 of 94
Yes, with regard to manifold IB's, it's optimal to have the driver as close as possible to the point of transition into the space.

The wavelengths involved assure very little actual destructive interference occurs, as long as the operational frequency upper limit is reasonable for the situation.


Wave Length in Feet = 1130 / Frequency

Acoustic output essentially sums when the energy is 1/4 wavelength of each other. With an 80hz crossover of typical subs, your only concern would be spacing of more than 3 1/2 feet.

1130/80hz = 14 feet ...... 14'/4 = 3.5 feet


What exactly is your concern?
post #77 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by cecaa850 View Post

12 ga. romex will be fine on a 20 amp breaker.

Yes, however it's all about the maximum amount of the load, and the distance from the panel. Merely stating 12awg is fine leaves two of the pertinent parameters out of the equation. Circuit length often is problematic (wrt limiting via Edrop) with subwoofer amplification. Granted, smaller modest systems often don't experience issues with line drop.
post #78 of 94
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Yes, with regard to manifold IB's, it's optimal to have the driver as close as possible to the point of transition into the space.

The wavelengths involved assure very little actual destructive interference occurs, as long as the operational frequency upper limit is reasonable for the situation.


Wave Length in Feet = 1130 / Frequency

Acoustic output essentially sums when the energy is 1/4 wavelength of each other. With an 80hz crossover of typical subs, your only concern would be spacing of more than 3 1/2 feet.

1130/80hz = 14 feet ...... 14'/4 = 3.5 feet


What exactly is your concern?

My only concern was the same as mentioned above, the difference in time that sound hits the LP. I did not know the equation to figure out the measurement. The only reason I was concerned is due to the instruction on the cult. Thomas can be very helpfull, but vague at times for those of us who don't understand all this completely. My issue is trying not to have a 14.5 x 40" wide hole in the floor...14.5 x 20 is much more doable and then the manifold would be two drivers deep in the floor(40" or so)
post #79 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

My only concern was the same as mentioned above, the difference in time that sound hits the LP. I did not know the equation to figure out the measurement. The only reason I was concerned is due to the instruction on the cult. Thomas can be very helpfull, but vague at times for those of us who don't understand all this completely. My issue is trying not to have a 14.5 x 40" wide hole in the floor...14.5 x 20 is much more doable and then the manifold would be two drivers deep in the floor(40" or so)

I see. First, Thomas possesses an encyclopedic amount of knowledge on all things audio. I've no idea of how many projects he's built etc, but I keep running into more of what he's done. I do know he's built many loudspeakers, highly complex multi-way designs, subs, electronics, etc., and has dedicated a significant amount of time and energy into presenting and sharing his primary focus of IB sub-woofers. Sure enough, he isn't all warm and fuzzy, and his short,...and "to the point" posting style isn't for everyone. His "Curmudgeon in Training" tag-line couldn't be more appropriate. But, his first hand DIY knowledge, combined with being involved via The Cult in thousands of IB designs, installs, measurements, and troubleshooting,.... gives him a vast amount of deep understanding of all the issues involved. I'm still finding new things at The Cult,...and hit it up daily.

If you want to build your IB one driver wide, two drivers deep, I don't see any problem whatsoever with regard to your concern of signal alignment. As I illustrated in a previous post, the relative size of the waves involved at subwoofer frequencies precludes any concern until the spacing becomes greater that 1/4 wavelength of the highest freq. I'd consider the highest frequency in the LFE spec, of 120hz, the freq of concern. So knowing a 120hz wavelength is about 9 1/2 feet long, and a quarter of that is 2.35 feet. So, assuring your driver spacing is at least within 2.35 feet (28") center to center, then you'd not experience any problematic phase issues or cancellation all the way up to an operational point of 120hz.

Now, the only other concern would be ample cross sectional area of the mouth of the IB, and where it transitions into the room. If you think along the lines of the way a compression driver works, that's more akin to the actual manner in which an IB manifold opening and driver sets work. You'll be fine with your driver complement, and opening size. Many get hung up on manifold opening size, as did I at first. However, the acoustic analogy of the compression driver is ideal, and it's just not going to be an issue. Actually, there's benefits, as the integral strength is greater than that of a huge rectangular manifold opening.

You're good....



Best of luck
post #80 of 94
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

I see. First, Thomas possesses an encyclopedic amount of knowledge on all things audio. I've no idea of how many projects he's built etc, but I keep running into more of what he's done. I do know he's built many loudspeakers, highly complex multi-way designs, subs, electronics, etc., and has dedicated a significant amount of time and energy into presenting and sharing his primary focus of IB sub-woofers. Sure enough, he isn't all warm and fuzzy, and his short,...and "to the point" posting style isn't for everyone. His "Curmudgeon in Training" tag-line couldn't be more appropriate. But, his first hand DIY knowledge, combined with being involved via The Cult in thousands of IB designs, installs, measurements, and troubleshooting,.... gives him a vast amount of deep understanding of all the issues involved. I'm still finding new things at The Cult,...and hit it up daily.

If you want to build your IB one driver wide, two drivers deep, I don't see any problem whatsoever with regard to your concern of signal alignment. As I illustrated in a previous post, the relative size of the waves involved at subwoofer frequencies precludes any concern until the spacing becomes greater that 1/4 wavelength of the highest freq. I'd consider the highest frequency in the LFE spec, of 120hz, the freq of concern. So knowing a 120hz wavelength is about 9 1/2 feet long, and a quarter of that is 2.35 feet. So, assuring your driver spacing is at least within 2.35 feet (28") center to center, then you'd not experience any problematic phase issues or cancellation all the way up to an operational point of 120hz.

Now, the only other concern would be ample cross sectional area of the mouth of the IB, and where it transitions into the room. If you think along the lines of the way a compression driver works, that's more akin to the actual manner in which an IB manifold opening and driver sets work. You'll be fine with your driver complement, and opening size. Many get hung up on manifold opening size, as did I at first. However, the acoustic analogy of the compression driver is ideal, and it's just not going to be an issue. Actually, there's benefits, as the integral strength is greater than that of a huge rectangular manifold opening.

You're good....



Best of luck

Thank you so much for all of your ideas and help! I hope you don't missunderstand, I am gratefull for the help that Thomas is offering, I just didn't have the understanding at first. It is fairly obvious that Thomas is nothing short of an audio genius, so the shortcoming of our conversation to date is because of my lack of knowledge I'm sure. I would like to start with two manifolds, two drivers deep(center to center 18") so no phase issues, etc. especially considering that I would probably cross between 60 and 80hz. Each manifold will contain 4 drivers for a total of 8. The nice part about this design is that if it does not operate up to the level I expect, I have the ability to move four drivers to different locations.

The next concern that I have is about amplification. The way I see it, if I can find an amp that will operate @ 8ohm, or even 4ohm, and put out 1000watts per channel, then each driver could see 500watts and the amps cold loaf along.(2 amps). I looked at the Behringers, but the contiuos posts about questionable specs on power made me reconsider. I also looked at the Marathon ma5050, crown xls5000 and the LG 6000(probably out of budget though). Any thoughts on amps??
post #81 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

I looked at the Behringers, but the contiuos posts about questionable specs on power made me reconsider.

I think you're referring to the iNuke 3000dsp.

The EP4000 has been tested here and produces quite a bit of power. AFAIK, it's a DIY amp favorite.
post #82 of 94
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

I think you're referring to the iNuke 3000dsp.

The EP4000 has been tested here and produces quite a bit of power. AFAIK, it's a DIY amp favorite.

I will do a search on threads to re-look at those, thank you. I would certainly be happy to spend as little as possible if the amp will provide top notch results. Thanks!
post #83 of 94
Powering up Fi IB3-18's all depends on your ultimate configuration.

If you go all out and build the two manifolds with four IB3-18's each, then I'd buy two Behringer EP4000's, and series two drivers per channel. This will allow worry free operation, and ample output. Unless there's been a significant change to the design, the IB3-18's possess a nasty hard bottom characteristic if fed too much power at too low a frequency.

Unless you opt for a high pass filter,....which is somewhat counter intuitive with an IB, I'd limit the per driver power to about 300 watts. I've tested them extensively, and determined 500 watts per driver will hard bottom with big LFE transients. At an operational level of 225 watts per driver, there's no over-excursion issues with HT material. It's the deep, deep stuff that plunges them into trouble. They're so efficient in the bottom octaves that even at 225 watts per driver is ample to hit extreme levels, yet avoid a bottoming scenario.

An EP4000 would allow you to either operate at 500 watts each in a bridged, series/parallel config, ... or 225 watts each in a series config. This way you can perform your own bottoming testing and determine for yourself. Perhaps there's been a change I'm not aware of in the construction clearances of the former hitting the back plate etc,. I'm not aware of any however, who knows.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Behringer (1)EP4000, (4) Fi IB3-18" 4ohm

Stereo;
8 ohm stereo=450w Scenario #1.) 225w / driver (very stable @-4db Pmax)

4 ohm stereo=635w

2 ohm stereo=815w Scenario #2.) 407w / driver (less stable @ -1db Pmax)

------------------------
Mono;
8 ohm mono=1336w

4 ohm mono=2000w Scenario #3.) 500w / driver (stable @ Pmax)
----------------------------------------------------------------------


You'll be able to achieve acoustic output in the mid 120's (~125dB) out of each four driver manifold, this is even at the safe operational point of 225 watts per driver @1m@20hz. So summing two manifolds would hit +6dB higher, or 130dB or somewhat above.


A brief overview of IB powering;
With an IB, the conundrum always exists of how to implement your amplification structure. Without the typical small sealed air spring to lean on, the system is excursion limited, instead of thermally limited. When examining the small sealed, and IB, the IB's inherent advantage in is the native efficiency in the bottom octaves, all due to the driver having no air spring to lean on. When powering an IB, much less power is required to achieve X-max, than in a small sealed.

*So one must make decisions on determining the use of a less powerful amplifier, thereby limiting capability in the upper frequencies,.... or employ a more powerful approach to achieve full capability in the upper frequencies, however implement high pass protection to assure over excursions aren't an issue in the bottom octaves.


In the small sealed application, the entire potential of the amplifier is availed for frequencies both above, and below the knee. With the IB, the ULF excursion will be the limiting factor. If you hi-passed the IB, things would equal out with more power now made available through the mid and upper subwoofer frequencies. But operating without a high pass filter, the power amount at which the driver hits it's Xmax is the limit,....so it's somewhat limited in the upper range. This is why proper IB systems have huge amount of displacement, via multiple drivers.

The Behringer EP4000 amps are well vetted, they have enough extension in the frequency response for IB duty, and as long as you don't operate into 2 ohm loads, or alter the thermal handling characteristics, they are an outright steal and should serve you well for years. In stereo 8ohm config, they'll draw less 10 amps each, even at ULF test tones, so instantaneous voltage drop concerns aren't a prohibitive issue if the circuit lengths aren't excessive. Typical operational levels of current draw would be much less.

Do you have any floor-plan drawings/pics?



Thanks
post #84 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

Any thoughts on amps??

I replaced a 55 lb Peavey CS4080HZ (2000W/ch@ 4 ohms) with a 7 lb Peavey IPR 3000 (840 W/ch@4 ohms, 1500/ch@2).

No regrets.

I measured full power at 10 Hz, for a sec or two anyhow; didn't want to fry driver.
post #85 of 94
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Powering up Fi IB3-18's all depends on your ultimate configuration.

If you go all out and build the two manifolds with four IB3-18's each, then I'd buy two Behringer EP4000's, and series two drivers per channel. This will allow worry free operation, and ample output. Unless there's been a significant change to the design, the IB3-18's possess a nasty hard bottom characteristic if fed too much power at too low a frequency.

Unless you opt for a high pass filter,....which is somewhat counter intuitive with an IB, I'd limit the per driver power to about 300 watts. I've tested them extensively, and determined 500 watts per driver will hard bottom with big LFE transients. At an operational level of 225 watts per driver, there's no over-excursion issues with HT material. It's the deep, deep stuff that plunges them into trouble. They're so efficient in the bottom octaves that even at 225 watts per driver is ample to hit extreme levels, yet avoid a bottoming scenario.

An EP4000 would allow you to either operate at 500 watts each in a bridged, series/parallel config, ... or 225 watts each in a series config. This way you can perform your own bottoming testing and determine for yourself. Perhaps there's been a change I'm not aware of in the construction clearances of the former hitting the back plate etc,. I'm not aware of any however, who knows.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Behringer (1)EP4000, (4) Fi IB3-18" 4ohm

Stereo;
8 ohm stereo=450w Scenario #1.) 225w / driver (very stable @-4db Pmax)

4 ohm stereo=635w

2 ohm stereo=815w Scenario #2.) 407w / driver (less stable @ -1db Pmax)

------------------------
Mono;
8 ohm mono=1336w

4 ohm mono=2000w Scenario #3.) 500w / driver (stable @ Pmax)
----------------------------------------------------------------------


You'll be able to achieve acoustic output in the mid 120's (~125dB) out of each four driver manifold, this is even at the safe operational point of 225 watts per driver @1m@20hz. So summing two manifolds would hit +6dB higher, or 130dB or somewhat above.


A brief overview of IB powering;
With an IB, the conundrum always exists of how to implement your amplification structure. Without the typical small sealed air spring to lean on, the system is excursion limited, instead of thermally limited. When examining the small sealed, and IB, the IB's inherent advantage in is the native efficiency in the bottom octaves, all due to the driver having no air spring to lean on. When powering an IB, much less power is required to achieve X-max, than in a small sealed.

*So one must make decisions on determining the use of a less powerful amplifier, thereby limiting capability in the upper frequencies,.... or employ a more powerful approach to achieve full capability in the upper frequencies, however implement high pass protection to assure over excursions aren't an issue in the bottom octaves.


In the small sealed application, the entire potential of the amplifier is availed for frequencies both above, and below the knee. With the IB, the ULF excursion will be the limiting factor. If you hi-passed the IB, things would equal out with more power now made available through the mid and upper subwoofer frequencies. But operating without a high pass filter, the power amount at which the driver hits it's Xmax is the limit,....so it's somewhat limited in the upper range. This is why proper IB systems have huge amount of displacement, via multiple drivers.

The Behringer EP4000 amps are well vetted, they have enough extension in the frequency response for IB duty, and as long as you don't operate into 2 ohm loads, or alter the thermal handling characteristics, they are an outright steal and should serve you well for years. In stereo 8ohm config, they'll draw less 10 amps each, even at ULF test tones, so instantaneous voltage drop concerns aren't a prohibitive issue if the circuit lengths aren't excessive. Typical operational levels of current draw would be much less.

Do you have any floor-plan drawings/pics?



Thanks

As always, thank you very, very much for taking the time. I have the sickness of always doing way more than needed, just to be sure I won't question my decision later. In this case, it sounds like I will have well more than I need, and for less than the price of a single high quality sealed or ported production sub. By your stated calculations, my LP, which is going to be about 12ft, will see somewhere in the neighborhood of 120dbs at 20hz, and hopefully 110dbs at 10hz...with any help from the room, maybe a touch more. I was thinking I would get a little more than that, but if that is my result, with the amps running 8ohm loads and the drivers not being pushed anywhere near their limits, then I should be in good shape. I will get some pics of the rough frame up in the next day or two. Thanks again, very much. I truly would not be able to undertake all this without the helpfull advise.
post #86 of 94
Thread Starter 
Well, it seems like most of the other amps that I hve checked out(crown, marathon, etc) will put out more power than is needed, which would not be a good thing in this case. The only thing I would still like to find is something that performs like the EP, but is very, very quiet.????
post #87 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

The only thing I would still like to find is something that performs like the EP, but is very, very quiet.????

You and everyone else.....
post #88 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

The only thing I would still like to find is something that performs like the EP, but is very, very quiet.????

You can have that cake and eat it too, with a fan swap.
post #89 of 94
Thread Starter 
I thought a few folks had siad that Yamaha made some quiet pro amps that perform well. What are the general thoughts on them??
post #90 of 94
The Yamaha's are fine, I really like them...they've got different levels of pro amps,...all solid AFAIK. I've never heard a single bad thing about them,...I'm considering them currently for a project. I'm uncertain about their ULF performance, some pro amps hi pass a bit too high for IB use. I've got no reason to believe they do, merely uncertain...
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