Have a few questions regarding DAC's - Page 3

Originally Posted by Ratman

I guess everyone should take your word.

Some might, some might not, but there are a lot of reviews on Stereophile and Absolute Sound that take similar tacks.

... or, there is not audible difference.

There is, but you may be one of the "might nots"

Once the DAC does it's job it's still digital in/analog out. Could be true about the "equipment" though. A $1000 DAC won't make a $200 Insignia HTiB sound any better.

Originally Posted by SAMIK

What are these "two important controls" that I missed?

Originally Posted by SAMIK

I agree with you100 percent, but it might make a difference with a Bryston player, a Bryston amp with Watt Puppies or Thiel speakers.

Originally Posted by mcnarus

Another guy who believes price is a technical spec.

Interesting, how you can so easily characterize my words into a meaning that fits with your beliefs. Please re-read my comments.

No, because there probably is a difference in the case of wine. In the case of audio gear, we have standard tests to determine whether such perceptible differences exist. Try 'em some time. You might learn something.

What standard tests can you think of that they use to rate wine.

There is such a thing as taste memory, sight memory, touch memory, and, yes, audio memory.

Originally Posted by arnyk


Please compare the following:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/w...r-measurements

to:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/i...r-measurements

More specifically:

to:

The FR curve for the second speaker seems to be considerably smoother and covers about the same frequency response range as the first one. This is a comparison between a $22,400 per pair speaker to a $685 per pair speaker.

Why would the first speaker be more revealing of differences than the second? If anything the added smoothness of the second speaker would seem to give it an advantage.

Originally Posted by SAMIK

I'm sure you're not saying that the Infinity, as good a speaker as it is, is the equal of the Wattpuppy. There is really no standard for producing frequency response curves, besides they usually only measure on-axis response....

I'm sure you're not saying that the Infinity, as good a speaker as it is, is the equal of the Wattpuppy.

There is really no standard for producing frequency response curves,

besides they usually only measure on-axis response.

Also, some speaker manufacturers add bits of color to their spekers to make them more listenable.

However, it doesn't ring true to say that all speakers that cost more than, let's say $5000, are generally equal to those under $500.

Originally Posted by SAMIK

I said that it's not always possible. If you're selecting from a similar price range, sometimes it's immediately apparent, other times it's not. Your ROI is relative to many factors. I bought a B & K Ref 50 pre/pro eight years ago for $1400. I can't even give it away now. At about the same time, i bought a demo Bryston BP-26 pre-amp for $700. I should be able to get around a $1000 now on Audiogon. For me, they both served an important part of my a/v system. For me to buy a $100 bottle of wine seems excessive, while Johnny Depp drinks $500 Pinot's. Should I tell Johnny that there's no difference between his $500 Pinot and my $15 red, or his ROI is poor.

Originally Posted by mcnarus

OK, so in addition to suffering ann audio knowledge deficit, you also have a reading comprehension problem. Where did I say there are standard tests to rate wine? I said there are standard tests to determine whether differences are audible.

I think in your haste to come back with a real zinger to this ignorant poster with a comprehension problem, that you put a meaning in the sentence that wasn't there.
No where did I say you said.....
The point I was trying to make was that standardized tests are not the only way to judge something. We all make judgements, at least the people i know, about the merits of something based upon a memory of an event or an object, whether it be a 95 point bottle of wine, a great hamburger, or a funny movie.

No, there's no such thing as audio memory. Audio is not a human sense. There is such a thing as auditory memory. If you knew anything about it, you would know why the comparisons you did are totally meaningless.

Originally Posted by cel4145


I don't think that comparison works for you. There is a gigantic difference in taste in a $100 Silver Oak and a $15 grocery store cab--even though I do personally find the difference in price extravagant--and people could easily pick out the difference in a blind tasting test

Originally Posted by SAMIK

I'm sure you're not saying that the Infinity, as good a speaker as it is, is the equal of the Wattpuppy.

There is really no standard for producing frequency response curves,

besides they usually only measure on-axis response.

Also, some speaker manufacturers add bits of color to their spekers to make them more listenable.

I do understand your point,and I agree with you. Money is not always a measure of quality.

However, it doesn't ring true to say that all speakers that cost more than, let's say $5000, are generally equal to those under $500.

Originally Posted by SAMIK

Yes, there is an auditory memory,as you so stated, and that memory can be used to remember voices, bird chirps, and musical passages.

If I know the passage well enough, I can make comparisons to other passages, both live and recorded. A conductor certainly knows what an oboe passage should sound like in Scheherazade. He will ask the player, if it's possible, to change his omisher slightly to get that timbre. Many reviewers make their living reviewing music with nothing but memory to go on.Why is it such stretch for you to realize that auditory memory or memory of music CAN be used to judge this years Beethoven's 5th against last years piece, or compare a recording with a live musical event, or compare a recording on different speakers, amps, and DAC's?

Originally Posted by arnyk


Right, the Infinity might be the better speaker.

Which high end audio dealer told you that?

Which high end audio dealer told you that?

Which high end audio dealer told you that expensive speakers are somehow always immune to that sort of chicanery?

I've been to high end audio shows and listened to a lot of very expensive speakers. Some of them have been pretty horrible. Some of them are pretty good, but represented horrible values, given what can be obtained for reasonable prices.

There are ways to build speakers with outstanding technical performance, and it is not cheap, but frankly I don't see a lot of high end manufacturers doing that. BTW the technical advantages of speakers built this way are readily measurable and they do provide improved sound quality. However, there is only so much that can be done with a few small drivers which is what you find in most high end speakers.

Take the Watt Puppy 8 - two 8 inch woofers, a 7 inch midrange and a dome tweeter. There are profound limits to the kind of bass extension and dynamic range that can be obtained by means of this technology.

For $11,200 a piece, I would expect a technical tour de force, not a reiteration of the same basic technology that can be obtained with quality hardware selling for 1/20th of the price.

Technology should not be analyzed with the price tags showing. The whole point of products like the Watt Puppies is making them financially credible to those who are technology naive. Not many people seem to take the bait. Wise persons, those who avoid drinking the high end audio kool Aid.

Originally Posted by SAMIK

FAssume you could be shown a process of manufacturing, where parts are hand picked and matched with electrical tolerances of 1/100 of 1%, hand assembled in a dust free room, burned in, and then finally rechecked by a trained technician. Lets further assume that most people rate this DAC as superior sounding and very "musical". Let's further suppose they make a small profit, and the dealer makes a small profit, and their final selling price is $4500. If you had $4500 to spend, would you even consider thIs product, or dismiss it out of hand?

Originally Posted by SAMIK

First, I met Jim Thiel in an Evanston, Il, seminar, and he mentioned that certain manufacturers will produce speakers with an emphasized bass to appeal to headbangers, if you will.

Lets further assume that most people rate this DAC as superior sounding and very "musical".

Let's further suppose they make a small profit, and the dealer makes a small profit, and their final selling price is $4500. If you had $4500 to spend, would you even consider thIs product, or dismiss it out of hand?

Originally Posted by arnyk


I'd dismiss it out of hand given that sonically transparent DACs are becoming so inexpensive that their price is too small (less than a dollar) to even estimate.

Here is an example of a modern SOTA DAC:

http://www.idt.com/sites/default/fil...T_20120327.pdf

Nothing you've mentioned is required or even especially conducive for sonically transparent reproduction. Home audio components that require hand-matched components are a sign of poor industrial design.

The idea that most people rate a DAC as being superior sounding simply doesn't compute because superiority implies singularity, and we already know that there are a large number of DACs that are sonically transparent and therefore perform in an ideal way.

Speakers have not quite reached this level of ideal performance or easy fabrication. However, the performance of listening rooms is such that in essence speakers are generally listened to through a number of veils. This is a great performance leveler. The idea that drivers have to be hand-picked by high priests is usually a fantasy on a number of grounds, one being that in general the actual driver choosers may be minimum-wage employees who run incoming drivers through a measurement jig that they operate like they were flipping pancakes on a griddle.

Like I said, I've heard any number of high end speakers, some in pretty nicely set up and well-thought out rooms. In many cases the results were unimpressive, and in no case was the sound any better or more revealing then some well-made speakers costing 10% or less.

Originally Posted by SAMIK

I couldn't disagree with you more. Thanks for the civil discourse.

Originally Posted by beaveav

About what? Care to elaborate?

Originally Posted by walbert

Arny,

Where can I buy that chip and/or a finished product?

Originally Posted by walbert

Probably that the room makes any difference and that inexpensive equipment is suitable for any reason.

Where can I buy that chip and/or a finished product?

Originally Posted by beaveav

About what? Care to elaborate?

These discussions about audio perception are always very passionate, to the point where the argument often is pushed to extremes. What I'd like to know from the discussants is whether they think that there are any parts of the DAC chain that are audible with the basic DAC technology currently in widespread use.

If there is nothing likely to be audible on the digital side of things, is there anything on the analog side that requires spending a bit more money to get an improvement in sound?

Originally Posted by mcnarus

I'm not prepared to state that any DAC over $XX is audibly perfect, but it's a pretty safe bet that the price point is shockingly low by audiophile standards. There have been numerous published tests over the last 20 years that have yet to show audible differences even among components at very different price points (a few obviously flawed cases aside). And you'll notice that those who claim such differences never, ever do such tests.

That's not to dis anyone who's spent serious green on an outboard DAC. If you want a cool system, hey, go for it. But if, like most people, you've got limited resources, put those resources into something that really matters.

So if I wanted to put my limited audio resources into "something that really matters," what components would you put on that list?

Originally Posted by mcnarus

Speakers and room. Not necessarily in that order.

Originally Posted by SDL

My interest in DACs comes from wanting to ensure