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What does 110 db at 20 Hz sound like?

post #1 of 71
4/2/12 at 11:28pm
Thread Starter 
That's what my new sub models at, but it won't be ready for a few weeks. Can't wait to find out on my own. Can it be explained?
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post #2 of 71
4/3/12 at 12:02am
This is one nebulous question
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post #3 of 71
4/3/12 at 3:26am
Time will tell..... Then i would like you to put it to words... Much easier said than done. I have to say i miss the days of Stereohphile mag where the writter reviewer would expound words and details like i have never heard...
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post #4 of 71
4/3/12 at 3:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Subjga View Post

That's what my new sub models at, but it won't be ready for a few weeks. Can't wait to find out on my own. Can it be explained?

Is that what the models shows at 1M or at your listening position? They can be very different. Mos people don't have their subs 1M away. But some do.

It should sound the same as 100dB or 120dB.

What it feels like can be different at different levels. Different people have different experiences.

Also your room is going to greatly affect what "goes on" at 20Hz. You could have room gain-or loss-depending on the layout, wall/floor/ceiling construction.

So basically there is no way to give a real answer.
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post #5 of 71
4/3/12 at 5:41am
20 cycles does not sound like anything. You could feel it, but you would never hear it.
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post #6 of 71
4/3/12 at 12:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

I have to say i miss the days of Stereohphile mag where the writter reviewer would expound words and details like i have never heard...

I never heard what they were talking about either, so I stopped reading it

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post

20 cycles does not sound like anything. You could feel it, but you would never hear it.

I can hear it, and I'm sure many others can as well.
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post #7 of 71
4/3/12 at 1:04pm
My guess is it sounds like driving Down The freeway with one of rear windows of a 4 door car down. Haha
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post #8 of 71
4/3/12 at 1:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post


I never heard what they were talking about either, so I stopped reading it

I can hear it, and I'm sure many others can as well.

20 hz is below audible. The only noise you would hear, is the air movement, not the actual sound.
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post #9 of 71
4/3/12 at 1:14pm
Negative, sine waves are audible down to around 16 and from there they begin to be more felt than heard. To my ears at least?
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post #10 of 71
4/3/12 at 1:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post

20 hz is below audible. The only noise you would hear, is the air movement, not the actual sound.

Uh oh, here we go.

What do you think sound is, if not the movement of air?
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post #11 of 71
4/3/12 at 2:04pm
Any frequency can be audible with a high enough SPL. A system tom danley built produced an audible 3 hz tone.
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post #12 of 71
4/3/12 at 3:41pm
110 @ 20hz is good but It's not going to blow you away. IMO you need to be in the 120's @ 20hz before you really begin to have the best sensations.
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post #13 of 71
4/3/12 at 4:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by halo0 View Post

Uh oh, here we go.

What do you think sound is, if not the movement of air?

There is a difference between a audible sound, and the air movement caused by the driver moving back and forth.

The number of sound pressure level vibrations (sonic waves) per second denotes the frequency. Infrasonic (below hearing), sonic (aural), and ultrasonic (above hearing) frequencies are measured in Hertz (Hz); one Hertz is one cycle wave (or singular pressure wave in audionics) per second. Specifically, humans have a maximum aural range that begins as low as 12 Hz under ideal laboratory conditions,[3] to 20,000 Hz in most children and some adults, but the range shrinks during life, usually beginning at around the age of 8 with the higher frequencies fading. Inaudible sound waves can be detected (felt) by humans through physical body vibration in the range of 4 to 16 Hz. There is a difference in sensitivity of hearing between the sexes, with women typically having a higher sensitivity to higher frequencies than men.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearing_range

The human ear can nominally hear sounds in the range 20 Hz to 20,000 Hz (20 kHz). The upper limit tends to decrease with age; most adults are unable to hear above 16 kHz. The lowest frequency that has been identified as a musical tone is 12 Hz under ideal laboratory conditions.[5] Tones between 4 and 16 Hz can be perceived via the body's sense of touch.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoacoustics
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post #14 of 71
4/3/12 at 5:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nardokor View Post

Any frequency can be audible with a high enough SPL. A system tom danley built produced an audible 3 hz tone.

Here is a good video of the effect of low freq. and trying to talk during a low freq sine wave

I think it was 11Hz.

Scroll down on the left side for the video with the guy (Josh) standing insdie the Matterhorn.
There is another one below it.
http://www.facebook.com/#!/DanleySoundLabs
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post #15 of 71
4/3/12 at 6:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post

There is a difference between a audible sound, and the air movement caused by the driver moving back and forth.

The number of sound pressure level vibrations (sonic waves) per second denotes the frequency. Infrasonic (below hearing), sonic (aural), and ultrasonic (above hearing) frequencies are measured in Hertz (Hz); one Hertz is one cycle wave (or singular pressure wave in audionics) per second. Specifically, humans have a maximum aural range that begins as low as 12 Hz under ideal laboratory conditions,[3] to 20,000 Hz in most children and some adults, but the range shrinks during life, usually beginning at around the age of 8 with the higher frequencies fading. Inaudible sound waves can be detected (felt) by humans through physical body vibration in the range of 4 to 16 Hz. There is a difference in sensitivity of hearing between the sexes, with women typically having a higher sensitivity to higher frequencies than men.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearing_range

The human ear can nominally hear sounds in the range 20 Hz to 20,000 Hz (20 kHz). The upper limit tends to decrease with age; most adults are unable to hear above 16 kHz. The lowest frequency that has been identified as a musical tone is 12 Hz under ideal laboratory conditions.[5] Tones between 4 and 16 Hz can be perceived via the body's sense of touch.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoacoustics

Those figures are generalizations. I can hear down to 16Hz as well. I have been tested!
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post #16 of 71
4/3/12 at 7:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post

20 cycles does not sound like anything. You could feel it, but you would never hear it.

+1. I measure subs outdoors and with 20Hz at 110dB if the meter didn't tell you it was there you wouldn't know it. Bring the sub indoors and the compression of the air in the room allows you to feel it.
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post #17 of 71
4/3/12 at 8:25pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

110 @ 20hz is good but It's not going to blow you away. IMO you need to be in the 120's @ 20hz before you really begin to have the best sensations.

Oh man! You're twisting my arm now, gotta do another build! Is it normal to think about a 2nd build before the 1st one is finished?
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post #18 of 71
4/3/12 at 8:28pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dacarboosta View Post

My guess is it sounds like driving Down The freeway with one of rear windows of a 4 door car down. Haha

Haha, I sure hope not!
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post #19 of 71
4/3/12 at 8:29pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

+1. I measure subs outdoors and with 20Hz at 110dB if the meter didn't tell you it was there you wouldn't know it. Bring the sub indoors and the compression of the air in the room allows you to feel it.

Is that because of room gain? In other words, is it because it is now more-than 110 db at 20Hz, or is it because of other things vibrating in the room?
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post #20 of 71
4/3/12 at 8:39pm
I hear clearly down to about 17hz with test tones then it fades out more or less into air movement. I don't hear noises as high as some of my friends, but I can hear 17 hz easy, and could easily tell you which tone was lower 17 or 18 hz if you played them. Its no different to me than other frequency test tones. Very clear!

Here is a quick demonstration in my room of what happens with lower frequencies.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=5YpXIFfScAU
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post #21 of 71
4/3/12 at 9:07pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Here is a quick demonstration in my room of what happens with lower frequencies.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=5YpXIFfScAU

I don't think that's the correct link.
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post #22 of 71
4/4/12 at 5:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Subjga View Post

Is that because of room gain? In other words, is it because it is now more-than 110 db at 20Hz, or is it because of other things vibrating in the room?

Cabin gain is at work, but it's mostly the compression and rarefaction of the relatively small air mass in the room allowing high enough pressure swings to feel them.
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post #23 of 71
4/4/12 at 6:58am
This is a spectrogram of a typical bass-heavy action movie scene containing a 4.5 octave bandwidth, short duration effect comprised of real recorded and synth generated sounds.



110dB at 20 Hz would mean you'd be seeing a total of 125-130dB. That means you have one seriously capable system and you're running the SW channel 10-15dB hot.

In any case, it's not a typical (or even likely) scenario to ponder, and if it was done just for the heck of it, 20 Hz would be all but irrelevant.

If you isolate a single frequency from any sound from thunder to a birds tweet, there's no way that single frequency would resemble the actual sound it was pulled from.

It matters not what a math-crunching software app tells you your sub will accomplish with a perfect sine wave sweep at 'x' input level.

What matters is how your system works in your room to accurately replay the complex and dynamic sounds encoded onto a disc.

dBSPL is a secondary concern and is easily accomplished by adding multiples until you're satisfied.

Bosso
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post #24 of 71
4/4/12 at 11:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

dBSPL is a secondary concern and is easily accomplished by adding multiples until you're satisfied.

Simple? Yes.

Easy? Given the various and common cost, space, and SAF constraints faced by most people, no.

Otherwise a lot more people would have systems with fully satisfacory performance.
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post #25 of 71
4/4/12 at 12:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Simple? Yes.

Easy? Given the various and common cost, space, and SAF constraints faced by most people, no.

Otherwise a lot more people would have systems with fully satisfacory performance.

You're not alone in this opinion, but I wonder what you base it on other than your experiences reading posts on forums like this one?

There are millions of people who buy audio equipment who have no idea what the options are.

People spend lots more on a video monitor/projector/screen than they do on a subwoofer, with the size of the monitor/screen ever-increasing. I'd also suggest that the reason is that many more people know what those options are.

Head into a Best Buy and you'll see 50 flat screen monitors up to $8k, 70" and 4 or 5 12" cube subwoofers for $500.

The graph I posted is from the LP using an 8x15 system in 3500 cubes that has very high SAF (mine anyway, never took a survey of others) and came in at around $2800.

It's always funny how some say I'm insane for spending that much (or whatever other similarly silly reason for calling me insane), but then ask when I'm going to get rid of that little 50" plasma flat panel monitor and upgrade to a new ['x'] type.

Bottom line is; facts is facts. What the rest of the world does is irrelevant to me and to the OT.

Bosso
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post #26 of 71
4/4/12 at 1:05pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

dBSPL is a secondary concern and is easily accomplished by adding multiples until you're satisfied.

This is interesting that I know it's true but not how. How can one model this, let's say in WinISD alpha? Is it something straightforward, like adding +3dB per additional sub, or do you have to do something in the software?
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post #27 of 71
4/4/12 at 1:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

You're not alone in this opinion, but I wonder what you base it on other than your experiences reading posts on forums like this one?

There are millions of people who buy audio equipment who have no idea what the options are.

People spend lots more on a video monitor/projector/screen than they do on a subwoofer, with the size of the monitor/screen ever-increasing. I'd also suggest that the reason is that many more people know what those options are.

Head into a Best Buy and you'll see 50 flat screen monitors up to $8k, 70" and 4 or 5 12" cube subwoofers for $500.

The graph I posted is from the LP using an 8x15 system in 3500 cubes that has very high SAF (mine anyway, never took a survey of others) and came in at around $2800.

It's always funny how some say I'm insane for spending that much (or whatever other similarly silly reason for calling me insane), but then ask when I'm going to get rid of that little 50" plasma flat panel monitor and upgrade to a new ['x'] type.

Bottom line is; facts is facts. What the rest of the world does is irrelevant to me and to the OT.

Bosso

I want four more Tumults !!!!!!
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post #28 of 71
4/4/12 at 1:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

The graph I posted is from the LP using an 8x15 system in 3500 cubes that has very high SAF (mine anyway, never took a survey of others) and came in at around $2800.)

Does that $2800 include the cost of amplification? The cost of installing 20A lines or whatever you're running?
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post #29 of 71
4/4/12 at 4:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

Does that $2800 include the cost of amplification? The cost of installing 20A lines or whatever you're running?

Drivers, boxes, box hardware, amplifier and signal shaper. I already had 30A and 20A home runs installed long ago, as every HT should have. That was the easiest and cheapest part of the HT.

Bosso
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post #30 of 71
4/4/12 at 4:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Subjga View Post

I don't think that's the correct link.

it worked from my phone.

Here's a pc link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YpXIFfScAU
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