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Official Panasonic GT50 Series Discussion Thread [No Street Price Talk] - Page 252

post #7531 of 9713
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSpectre88 View Post

Then you and "a lot of others" have binoculars for eyes. biggrin.gif

Or you have bad eyes. wink.gif It's a problem with the VT too. smile.gif
post #7532 of 9713
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheshechic View Post

Or you have bad eyes. wink.gif It's a problem with the VT too. smile.gif

Yes, because it's actually dithering you're seeing.... rolleyes.gif
post #7533 of 9713
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSpectre88 View Post

Yes, because it's actually dithering you're seeing.... rolleyes.gif

I really don't like what you're insinuating.
You don't know what you're talking about, but hey, that's you. cool.gif
post #7534 of 9713
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheshechic View Post

I really don't like what you're insinuating.
You don't know what you're talking about, but hey, that's you. cool.gif

I don't mean any offense (maybe just a little), every other person who thinks they have an issue with dithering was really just complaining about pixelation, film grain, etc. But hey, if you're really a robot, then maybe..

I'll let that other comment slide because I'm such a nice person. smile.gif
post #7535 of 9713
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSpectre88 View Post

I don't mean any offense, every other person who thinks they have an issue with dithering was really just complaining about pixelation, film grain, etc.

I'll let that other comment slide because I'm such a nice person. wink.gif

I'm sorry but you're wrong. Maybe if you read the early discussions you'd know. It was also discussed on hdj.

Here are few comments from D-Nice:
http://www.avsforum.com/newsearch/?search=dithering&sort=relevance&order=descending&resultSortingPreference=recency&titleonly=0&byuser=d-nice&output=posts&sdate=1y&containingforum[0]=167&replycompare=gt&numupdates=&newer=1&type=all&advanced=1
post #7536 of 9713
What do you think that dithering is or looks like?
post #7537 of 9713
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheshechic View Post

What do you think that dithering is?

Tiny moving, light colored specks inside of a color? Well idk about light colored, but very small, and colors look like they are moving close up. I don't know how to describe it accurately, but it's barely even noticeable to me until I get within 3 feet. Dithering in dark grays however is slightly more noticeable, but still not going to be seen past 6-8 feet in normal content. If you can pick out dithering in between all the film grain/pixelation though, that is quite impressive.
Edited by JSpectre88 - 3/7/13 at 10:23pm
post #7538 of 9713
Sure there's extreme examples involving dithering, but you basically said you can see dithering at 8 feet. In 99% of normal content, I seriously doubt that. Isn't it more likely you're seeing source imperfections than absurdly tiny dots moving inside of the colors? That just seems absurd to me, but hey, I'll believe you if you say it's true.
post #7539 of 9713
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSpectre88 View Post

Tiny moving, light colored specks inside of a color? Well idk about light colored, but very small, and colors look like they are moving close up. I don't know how to describe it accurately, but it's barely even noticeable to me until I get within 2 feet. Dithering in dark grays however is slightly more noticeable, but still not going to be seen past 6-8 feet in normal content. If you can pick out dithering in between all the film grain/pixelation though, that is quite impressive.

It's because it's in the dark areas that I notice it most for HD content and of course it's horrible on sd content.

Just fyi, the following is from the flatpanelshd review:
Quote:
For years, Panasonic’s plasma TVs has widely been considered some of the best TVs when it comes to picture quality. The plasma technology has its inherent limitations and GT50 continues to struggles with reflections during daytime and dithering noise in the dark colors but besides that it is an awesome TV.

And this is from David Mackenzie's review:
Quote:
We noticed absolutely no difference in motion quality when compared to the VT50, which again, makes sense since both are specced with the same “2500hz Focused Field Drive”. In turn, this barely looked any different from the ST50, which in European countries, features a “2000hz” version of the same technology. If we were to compare 2000hz vs 2500hz versions side by side we’d perhaps see some differences, but whatever they are, they’re subtle enough to have passed us by with back-to-back in-depth reviews. All three portray absolutely excellent motion quality, and compared to last year, the dithering noise (a standard part of Plasma display technology) is disguised in a much better way compared to previous models. Phosphor trails (coloured streaks in the image) are very small. 60fps test clips (they’re 60 fields per second, not 60 frames, since we’re in-depth!) and 60fps video games all displayed wonderfully on the TX-P50GT50B, with only a light coating of dithering noise being visible during fast motion.

Both of the above are more reliable than cnet.
post #7540 of 9713
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheshechic View Post

It's because it's in the dark areas that I notice it most for HD content and of course it's horrible on sd content.

In most dark HD content I notice absolutely terrible grain and pixelation. I don't know how you could really narrow out dither from all that. Maybe in blu-ray's I might be able to spot the dither of dark grays if the source is mostly clean, but I can't say.
post #7541 of 9713
The picture on the right is what bad dithering looks like:

http://avforum.no/forum/tv-apparater/102931-samsung-2010-plasma-modeller-43.html
post #7542 of 9713
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSpectre88 View Post

In most dark HD content I notice absolutely terrible grain and pixelation. I don't know how you could really narrow out dither from all that. Maybe in blu-ray's I might be able to spot the dither of dark grays if the source is mostly clean, but I can't say.

If I came over to look at your set, I bet that what you consider grain is actually dithering. The dithering gets even worse when the movie/game/show has grain.
post #7543 of 9713
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheshechic View Post

The picture on the right is what bad dithering looks like:

http://avforum.no/forum/tv-apparater/102931-samsung-2010-plasma-modeller-43.html

Yeah, but I think the GT50 would be closer to the left honestly.
post #7544 of 9713
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheshechic View Post

If I came over to look at your set, I bet that what you consider grain is actually dithering. The dithering gets even worse when the movie/game/show has grain.

I really don't think it is, I have seen when the dithering looks pretty bad up close, but is not even recognizable from 4-6+ feet away. Dithering is literally, extremely small moving dots, past a few feet everything looks like a solid color. In rare cases you will see dark gray dithering possibly, but even then it shouldn't be more impactful than grain and pixelation. When you're watching your TV and it looks like everything is moving, that's the source material. (IMO)
post #7545 of 9713
I have to agree with sheshechic on this one. I'm about 8ft away from my set and I can see dithering very easily. It isn't hard to see at all.
post #7546 of 9713
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSpectre88 View Post

Yeah, but I think the GT50 would be closer to the left honestly.

I agree, when the source is 1080. Also, close does not win races. These tvs have dithering and motion problems, albeit not severe, but they are there. I skipped 2011 and waited for the 2012s to see what they would be like, if they would be worth spending the money for a big one. I do have a small G25. The GT50 is the best tv on the market, for my money, to date and I love her (even though occasionally she irritates me). If this year's tv significantly improve dithering and motion handling... I may have to sell. If not then I'll be hiring D-Nice to calibrate all my stuff.
post #7547 of 9713
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSpectre88 View Post

I really don't think it is, I have seen when the dithering looks pretty bad up close, but is not even recognizable from 6+ feet away. Dithering is literally, extremely small moving dots, past a few feet everything looks like a solid color. In rare cases you will see dark gray dithering possibly, but even then it shouldn't be more impactful than grain and pixelation. When you're watching your TV and it looks like everything is moving, that's the source material. (IMO)

What size do you have, how far are you from it and what age group are you in? To be fair, I'm over 50.
post #7548 of 9713
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheshechic View Post

The difference is the same as using someone elses settings on your GT, Disney WOW, AV 709 or a professional calibration, among other things like quality build. wink.gif

Some people don't see dithering at 8ft either but a lot of others do, I do. BTW, I like lobster and when I can't afford it I get snow crab legs, but I won't buy fake crab, my money has more value to me than that.

Oh and I had the $200 Sony, it was good in my little living room... just good. I gave it to my step-daughter, who doesn't have a "good ear."
In the end. It's way more if a matter if opinion vs fact. Which is why I tell people to consider the cheaper alternative. This is AVS. You've seen the crap people complain about in their things. The "problems" people go on and on about. The Abusive nature of return policies being done. So naturally the same thing is going to be said about a cheaper alternative. Here at AVS it makes more sense to buy thousand dollar of Equipment and assume you getting the better deal versus actually look into the competitive market.
post #7549 of 9713
Ya'll can call me sheshe or Sheila if you like.
post #7550 of 9713
Technician came down today and tightened the screws. I didn't notice a difference. He claimed that the buzzing was normal and that I should buy acoustic tiles or even hang a blanket. I tried hanging a blanket and it had almost no effect. I then tried draping the blanket over the back part of the TV and that basically completely muffled the sound. I have hardwood floors and not much furniture, which I'm sure isn't helping. I'm really torn between getting it exchanged, because I don't know how much effect the room conditions are having frown.gif
post #7551 of 9713
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Bartley View Post

Technician came down today and tightened the screws. I didn't notice a difference. He claimed that the buzzing was normal and that I should buy acoustic tiles or even hang a blanket. I tried hanging a blanket and it had almost no effect. I then tried draping the blanket over the back part of the TV and that basically completely muffled the sound. I have hardwood floors and not much furniture, which I'm sure isn't helping. I'm really torn between getting it exchanged, because I don't know how much effect the room conditions are having frown.gif
It sounds like you can only hear it as well as you do because of your room conditions. A new TV isn't going to change that. Unless you go LED.
post #7552 of 9713
Quote:
Originally Posted by JukeBox360 View Post

In the end. It's way more if a matter if opinion vs fact. Which is why I tell people to consider the cheaper alternative. This is AVS. You've seen the crap people complain about in their things. The "problems" people go on and on about. The Abusive nature of return policies being done. So naturally the same thing is going to be said about a cheaper alternative. Here at AVS it makes more sense to buy thousand dollar of Equipment and assume you getting the better deal versus actually look into the competitive market.

I hear ya. And some people are perfectly happy with imitation crab. The point about calibration tools, imo, is important. You can spend a bunch of green on an avr, and even a tv, that doesn't provide you with the tools to get the best out of your equipment. Panasonic doesn't (which really ticks me off) and neither does Yamaha with YAPO. And some people can calibrate completely without the those diy tools.
post #7553 of 9713
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Bartley View Post

Technician came down today and tightened the screws. I didn't notice a difference. He claimed that the buzzing was normal and that I should buy acoustic tiles or even hang a blanket. I tried hanging a blanket and it had almost no effect. I then tried draping the blanket over the back part of the TV and that basically completely muffled the sound. I have hardwood floors and not much furniture, which I'm sure isn't helping. I'm really torn between getting it exchanged, because I don't know how much effect the room conditions are having frown.gif

When the tech tightened the screws was the tv hot or cold? Did he do anything else?

If you really like the tv, then I say give it one more shot and exchange it. I can't hear buzz unless I'm about 2" from the white area of the screen.
post #7554 of 9713
Quote:
Originally Posted by JukeBox360 View Post

I have to agree with sheshechic on this one. I'm about 8ft away from my set and I can see dithering very easily. It isn't hard to see at all.

I give up. rolleyes.gif

I'll leave you two to your own devices.

Get it, because devices, but we're actually talking about ... devices. biggrin.gif
Edited by JSpectre88 - 3/7/13 at 11:12pm
post #7555 of 9713
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheshechic View Post

When the tech tightened the screws was the tv hot or cold? Did he do anything else?

If you really like the tv, then I say give it one more shot and exchange it. I can't hear buzz unless I'm about 2" from the white area of the screen.

The TV was powered on for a minute before he started tightening screws if I recall correctly.
post #7556 of 9713
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Bartley View Post

The TV was powered on for a minute before he started tightening screws if I recall correctly.

Sorry, I didn't see your original post. You can hear buzzing from a normal viewing distance, with an average volume level? Can you only hear it on mostly white scenes or you're hearing it with anything remotely bright?
post #7557 of 9713
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSpectre88 View Post

Sorry, I didn't see your original post. You can hear buzzing from a normal viewing distance, with an average volume level? Can you only hear it on mostly white scenes or you're hearing it with anything remotely bright?

If I watch Ice Age 3 on some "white" scenes I can hear at volume=10 with standard picture settings. It gets worse if I switch to thx cinema/vivid. I actually tried covering it with a blanket again and I can hear buzzing at thx cinema. I think I must have been on standard picture when I thought it was mostly muffled.
post #7558 of 9713
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Bartley View Post

The TV was powered on for a minute before he started tightening screws if I recall correctly.

If you can press on the back it reduces the buzz tightening the screws may work. The best way to tighten them is to loosen the screws while the tv is off (cold), turn the tv on and let it warm up, and then tighten the screws back down while its still warm.

If the buzzing is loud then there's a problem with a component inside (can't recall what exactly) and the tech would have to remove the back panel to check it. Darned buzzing Samsungs probably have all these techs thinking it's normal to be loud. It isn't. If you do a search on the Panasonic buzz and look for Randy's response you'll find more detailed information. It may even be on this thread. If not then the ST50.
post #7559 of 9713
Quote:
Originally Posted by JukeBox360 View Post

So your are saying you don't really know. You just pay a higher price and assume it has better and more features then a cheaper one? Paying more doesn't always mean your getting more. It's basically stating any premium HDMI cable is better then a cheapo $2 one. rolleyes.gifrolleyes.gif

No I do know the differences rolleyes.gif. I've had numerous AVRs, prepros and amps. I speak from actual ownership of mid-level to higher level gear not from total ignorance of said components. There is not anything wrong with a $250 AVR if that is what works for you. I desire better SQ out of my system so that is why I am willing to spend more than some might.

No paying more doesn't always mean that one is getting more. But if you took the time to educate yourself about AVRs then you might learn a thing of two. No its is not the same as saying "any premium HDMI cable is better then a cheapo $2 one" rolleyes.gif.

It is like if I said the Panasonic TC-P50X5 is just as good as the TC-50GT50 and that one is wasting their money by spending $1k on the ST over the $548 P50X5 wink.gif. So is the ST a waste of money? From your mindset it would be.


http://www.walmart.com/ip/20894664?wmlspartner=wlpa&adid=22222222227015134922&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=&wl3=17424461710&wl4=&wl5=pla&veh=sem

Bill
Edited by Bill Mac - 3/7/13 at 11:53pm
post #7560 of 9713
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

No I do know the differences rolleyes.gif. I've had numerous AVRs, prepros and amps. I speak from actual ownership of mid-level to higher level gear not from total ignorance of said components. There is not anything wrong with a $250 AVR if that is what works for you. I desire better SQ out of my system so that is why I am willing to spend more than some might.

No paying more doesn't always mean that one is getting more. But if you took the time to educate yourself about AVRs then you might learn a thing of two. No its is not the same as saying "any premium HDMI cable is better then a cheapo $2 one" rolleyes.gif.

Bill

Yep
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