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Whole Home Music - Cheaper Alternative to Sonos

post #1 of 47
4/4/12 at 11:21am
Thread Starter 
Hi All:

Sorry for the long post. I'll try to be concise about what I'm asking for help about...

I am looking to put together a whole home A/V system. Originally, I was planning to use 3 sonos connect devices, each connected to an audio receiver in different areas in my house. At about $1050 for the 3 sonos devices, I started thinking about cheaper alternatives...

With my wife and I both having Android phones (and also interested in buying a tablet or two) I started thinking about how to use those devices as an actual music source, instead of just to control the Sonos device. This would save money on the sonos devices, while utilizing what we already have (and potentially a tablet or two we wish to buy)...

So, then I started thinking that I could have a number of bluetooth audio receivers around the house (at < $100 a pop). Each BT receiver could have a phone/tablet paired. I could wire the receivers around the house to each of the bluetooth receivers. This would allow me to listen to any of the phone/tablets on any of the receivers in the house. Good in theory, but...

I don't think that ultimately bluetooth a2dp will have the range and reliability I am after. So, I am here posting about alternatives, or maybe a whole different design. Since the phones/tablets will be on wifi while at home, it would be nice to utilize the IP network instead of bluetooth, but not sure if this is possible. Your help and suggestions are appreciated.

My goal is to get away from using sonos, but achieve a similar result: All zones in the house can listen to the same or different sources of network audio (pandora, last.fm, itunes libraries). i.e. party mode in the whole house, or different songs/sources in each zone.

Video would be nice as well, but audio would be sufficient. Additionally, I want to be as future proof as possible, while not spending a lot of money (i.e. using the 3 receivers that I have as infrastructure.)

Some help with this design would be great. I am open to solutions like xbmc (which I already have and love, but don’t see this applying well), HTPC solutions, etc. The simpler the better, although I am pretty used to being complicated (obviously LOL). Also, I am intrigued with LinuxMCE but it sounds complicated and I'm not sure I want to dive into that.

P.S. I don't think it matters, but FYI... I will be using URC RF remote controls and base stations that I already have, to control everything. (MX-950s and MRF-350s).

My rooms/zones are:

Living room receiver:
Living Room 5.1 speakers
patio speakers (zone2)
kitchen speakers (zone 3 separate amp)

Bedroom Receiver:
Bedroom 5.1 speakers
Master Bath Speakers (zone 2 or B speakers)

Basement Receiver:
Gym 5.1 speakers
Laundry (B speakers)
Guest Room (B Speakers)
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post #2 of 47
4/4/12 at 12:01pm
You may want to post this in the A/V Automation - Home A/V Distribution forum here, as that is typically where whole house audio distribution is discussed. Granted, what you are wanting to do is not traditional, but you might find some folks there as well who can give you some advice.
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post #3 of 47
4/4/12 at 12:12pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks Mike. I'm not sure of the right way to get this moved. Perhaps a mod can do that if appropriate. I don't want to cross-post or violate any forum rules.
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post #4 of 47
4/4/12 at 12:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by g-speed View Post

Thanks Mike. I'm not sure of the right way to get this moved. Perhaps a mod can do that if appropriate. I don't want to cross-post or violate any forum rules.

You might consider the Squeezebox Touch. Works with Android phones/tablets and will do what you are envisioning.
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post #5 of 47
4/4/12 at 12:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhskyTangoFoxtrt View Post

You might consider the Squeezebox Touch. Works with Android phones/tablets and will do what you are envisioning.

I would second that vote.

I was on the same boat as you a few years back. Came across the Squeezebox Duet which was essentially what I wanted, except very pricey (MSRP is $400 each unit I think).

However, I was able to find some new and used ones on eBay and Kijiji at roughly $175-$200 a pop, which is the route I went.

The only other thing I think you should consider is the source of your music. A Sonos or Squeezebox system relies on a PC to act as a central server (does not need to be a dedicated PC, but obviously has benefits), which means that all devices have access to the same music as they're all pointing to the same place. If you get Android phones / tablets, you'd have to make sure each one has the same library and update multiple devices every time you want to do changes (at least that's how I understood your suggestion, not sure if you meant something else).
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post #6 of 47
4/4/12 at 12:53pm
Sonos is absolutely your best bet, but if you don't want to go that route then Apple TV in each location and used iPod touch as remote.
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post #7 of 47
4/4/12 at 3:47pm
Thread Starter 
jgiddyup: Thanks for your opinion. I am looking for an IR capable solution so I can track + - via my IR/RF remote, etc. without having to pull out and light up my phone/tablet each time I want to change a song.

Also, I am sore about what appears to be Sonos marketing tactics: For example, the connect is more expensive than the play:3 even though it lacks an amp and speakers. And the play:3 seems to purposely not include a line-level output, which is trivial and ultra cheap to include.

I prefer open source type things, that are more future proof IMHO. Logitech seems to have an open API and I read something about opensource (still doing research). But I guess Sonos is UPnP, so I dunno which is better.

Axle and WTF: Thanks to you guys I am researching squeezebox. My dealings with logitech include harmony remotes, which can be a pain to configure due to the clunky Logitech Harmony web based configuration software. I sort of despise Logitech for that monstrosity, but am willing to forgive and forget if the squeezebox is as good as I have been reading.

So, if I am looking for a squeezebox with IR control-ability, but don't need any fancy remote or touch screen, which do you recommend? Will the older squeezeboxes work as well with the latest Android software? Is the squeezebox software upgrade-able on the units?

Thanks guys. Appreciate it.
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post #8 of 47
4/4/12 at 5:04pm
Why not multiple ATV's?.....three zones for less than $300 and that leaves more than enough for an iPad to control it all.....amongst the million other things and iPad can do. I have a seven zone Apple system and it's great.....just works all the time. And with the iPad, you don't have to turn on display to operate it. You can also use the much cheaper iTouch as a controller or switch your phones to iPhones which also run the Remote app and stream directly via AirPlay.
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post #9 of 47
4/5/12 at 12:55am
Thread Starter 
No pandora and no last.fm, unless you do xbmc on ATV. Also the discrete IR is a bit wacky IIRC. Not a big Apple fan after much experience with their products and philosophy. They are the complete opposite of open source and future proof. I will agree that ATVs are economical though.
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post #10 of 47
4/5/12 at 4:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by g-speed View Post

No pandora and no last.fm, unless you do xbmc on ATV. Also the discrete IR is a bit wacky IIRC. Not a big Apple fan after much experience with their products and philosophy. They are the complete opposite of open source and future proof. I will agree that ATVs are economical though.

AirPlay solves this. We use pandora on our iPad and iPhone and AirPlay it to the apple tv which then kicks the audio out to our house speakers. It is future proof because whatever service that comes in the future will likely have an iPhone/iPad app. My kid watches Netflix on the iPad and airplays the audio to the house speakers because he thinks it's fun. I can't think of a more future proof system.

Lastly, and I could be wrong, but AirPlay is open source. If I'm wrong the tech is at least licensed because AirPlay feature exist in new AVRs from Pioneer and Yamaha. Likely more. With one of those receivers you may not even need the ATV depending on zone capabilities.
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post #11 of 47
4/5/12 at 6:49am
With that Apple whole-home audio system, can you play different music in different zones?
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post #12 of 47
4/5/12 at 8:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by g-speed View Post

I am looking for an IR capable solution so I can track + - via my IR/RF remote, etc. without having to pull out and light up my phone/tablet each time I want to change a song.

Missed that tidbit of information, I do not believe the Squeezebox Duet has an IR port, although, I'm 99% sure the Squeezebox Touch and Radio both have them (may want to double check that).

PS. I do not recommend the Radio as an actual speaker, despite it including one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by g-speed View Post

So, if I am looking for a squeezebox with IR control-ability, but don't need any fancy remote or touch screen, which do you recommend? Will the older squeezeboxes work as well with the latest Android software? Is the squeezebox software upgrade-able on the units?

Following my response above, the Squeezebox Controller app is available free for Android devices, however, I have no experience with it. As its not available Apple devices (I don't know why), the app I use is called iPeng, but its $10. Personally, I think its great as it is more intuitive as a touchscreen menu.

Quote:
Originally Posted by g-speed View Post

Axle and WTF: Thanks to you guys I am researching squeezebox. My dealings with logitech include harmony remotes, which can be a pain to configure due to the clunky Logitech Harmony web based configuration software. I sort of despise Logitech for that monstrosity, but am willing to forgive and forget if the squeezebox is as good as I have been reading.

+1

My sentiments exactly on their remotes. Unfortunately, they seem to be the only option in their price bracket, as anything cheaper just doesn't seem very polished and anything better is significantly more costly.

In the media streaming market though, you have many more options. Sonos was my second bet. I'm sure other solutions are good as well, such as Apple TV that a few other users have recommended. I would also echo the comment another user made about visiting the home automation forums as well, as if I had to do it all over again, I would be curious about what I could do in that vein.
(don't misunderstand, I'm very happy with my system, but curious if I could've done it for less by going the home automation route.... or spend the same amount of $ but with more features / flexibility)
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post #13 of 47
4/5/12 at 8:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by WinstonSmith View Post

With that Apple whole-home audio system, can you play different music in different zones?

Depends on how you approach it. With multiple ATVs, then yes.
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post #14 of 47
4/5/12 at 12:19pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks all. I appreciate your input.

I think I am going to get a couple of squeezebox classics and/or touch's and play with them. They do IR, multiple internet music sources, same or different music in each zone, itunes and shared music files, and also controllable from Android. I also like that they have a small form factor, use little power, look good and display the song they are playing. The biggest downside I see (which I think is minor) is that it doesn't seem the hardware could be re-purposed (unlike an ATV or pc based solution) if Logitech Squeezebox ever falls off the planet some day.

I also think I am going to play with LinuxMCE. The squeezeboxes are controllable through that home automation software. It sounds very cool.
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post #15 of 47
4/5/12 at 1:09pm
I think that Sonos is great for a 'just works' system. I bought into Squeezebox because I had limited money but big aspirations and I was willing to tweak.

That's the essential tradeoff between Sonos and Squeezebox - just use it, or spend more time tweaking it to get it to do what you want.

If Logitech drops the line, the server software won't stop working. It will continue as long as you have a NAS/PC/home server that will run the software.

As far as the repurposeability of the hardware, you have a point - but I give away or throw out so much PC hardware every few years that is all but worthless. I've stopped looking at PCs, media players etc. as long-term investments. It's more like leasing a car.
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post #16 of 47
4/5/12 at 1:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by g-speed View Post

jgiddyup: Thanks for your opinion. I am looking for an IR capable solution so I can track + - via my IR/RF remote, etc. without having to pull out and light up my phone/tablet each time I want to change a song.

Also, I am sore about what appears to be Sonos marketing tactics: For example, the connect is more expensive than the play:3 even though it lacks an amp and speakers. And the play:3 seems to purposely not include a line-level output, which is trivial and ultra cheap to include.

I prefer open source type things, that are more future proof IMHO. Logitech seems to have an open API and I read something about opensource (still doing research). But I guess Sonos is UPnP, so I dunno which is better.

Axle and WTF: Thanks to you guys I am researching squeezebox. My dealings with logitech include harmony remotes, which can be a pain to configure due to the clunky Logitech Harmony web based configuration software. I sort of despise Logitech for that monstrosity, but am willing to forgive and forget if the squeezebox is as good as I have been reading.

So, if I am looking for a squeezebox with IR control-ability, but don't need any fancy remote or touch screen, which do you recommend? Will the older squeezeboxes work as well with the latest Android software? Is the squeezebox software upgrade-able on the units?

Thanks guys. Appreciate it.

ATV comes with IR remote and the codes can be learned on URC remotes because I've done it. The iPod touch or iPad suggestion was to avoid having to turn on a display to get to your music.

I've owned 2 squeezebox Duets and I currently own 2 ATV's and a Sonos connect, Amp and Play 5.

For strictly music Sonos wins hands down and it's not even close. Airplay solves all your Pandora etc... issues with ATV.

And lastly I have a very robust and stable network and from a reliability/firmware bug or other issues point of view the logitech was a mile behind Apple and 2 miles behind Sonos.

YMMV of course as there's many logitech squeeze units out there that people love. Good Luck!
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post #17 of 47
4/5/12 at 1:47pm
Thread Starter 
Well now I just found this and am very excited. A squeezebox player that runs on xbmc!
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post #18 of 47
4/6/12 at 7:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by scubasteve2365 View Post

Depends on how you approach it. With multiple ATVs, then yes.

Would you need multiple methods of accessing those ATVs? I can't figure out how I could play different music on each one using the same iPad or iPod touch.
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post #19 of 47
4/6/12 at 8:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by WinstonSmith View Post


Would you need multiple methods of accessing those ATVs? I can't figure out how I could play different music on each one using the same iPad or iPod touch.

Each ATV points to iTunes. On the iDevice each different ATV will show in a tree. Select the ATV you want and then choose a song from the iTunes library. Repeat with each different device. You wouldn't use AirPlay in this scenario for more than one ATV. So each ATV playing a different source would be limited to your iTunes library unless you turn a TV on and select Pandora directly from the ATV. It would be nice if the remote app would be updated to control the ATV apps. Would be a big deal IMO.
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post #20 of 47
8/16/12 at 8:17am
g-speed - What did you end up doing?
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post #21 of 47
8/16/12 at 11:42am
Since it seems like people are still following this, I'll chime in with my (possibly helpful) experience. I was looking for a simple system to access the (itunes) music library on my desktop computer in different places (through hifi system in living room, home theater system in basement, cheap receiver / speakers in garage). I also had a couple of old laptops laying around, that I used to stream internet radio stations through winamp, but couldn't figure out an elegant way to access the music library. Browsing through endless shared network folders is not my idea of fun. I ended up installing the Logitech server software on the desktop, and installing squeezeplay on each of the laptops. You can then use the Squeezebox controller app to use your phone / tablet / whatever as a remote to control all of the squeeze player devices (each laptop shows up as a different one). The old laptops are not the most visually appealing, but if you can hide them, or don't care, this solution works well for minimal $ outlay. The big issue I've run into is the Logitech software lists songs alphabetically inside an album, rather than in order of track number (though in some cases it's not a problem, probably when the track number is built into the file name), but I haven't had time to really dig into troubleshooting. Maybe someone else using the Logitech server software has figured out an easy solution to this?
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post #22 of 47
8/16/12 at 12:27pm
you'll get a better response in the logitech thread or on their forums....

As a long time user of SqueezeCenter or what ever they call it know. It has many issues but its also quite customizable. I dont ever remember having that problem. my albums showed up in track order. plenty of other bugs but thay wasn't one of the ones I had.

Sean
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post #23 of 47
8/16/12 at 1:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublfelix View Post

Since it seems like people are still following this, I'll chime in with my (possibly helpful) experience. I was looking for a simple system to access the (itunes) music library on my desktop computer in different places (through hifi system in living room, home theater system in basement, cheap receiver / speakers in garage). I also had a couple of old laptops laying around, that I used to stream internet radio stations through winamp, but couldn't figure out an elegant way to access the music library. Browsing through endless shared network folders is not my idea of fun. I ended up installing the Logitech server software on the desktop, and installing squeezeplay on each of the laptops. You can then use the Squeezebox controller app to use your phone / tablet / whatever as a remote to control all of the squeeze player devices (each laptop shows up as a different one). The old laptops are not the most visually appealing, but if you can hide them, or don't care, this solution works well for minimal $ outlay. The big issue I've run into is the Logitech software lists songs alphabetically inside an album, rather than in order of track number (though in some cases it's not a problem, probably when the track number is built into the file name), but I haven't had time to really dig into troubleshooting. Maybe someone else using the Logitech server software has figured out an easy solution to this?

I used squeeze server prior to the Logitech acquisition and recently after it was acquired I had to rebuild the server and never went back to it. I do remember the UI being clunky and not very friendly with various browsers. I'd hope they fix this by now.

On a side note:
You can easily rename all (or just some) of your files with http://mp3tag.de/en/download.html
After you install it, just right click your root music folder and select MP3TAG, and rename based on ID3 tag to filename
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post #24 of 47
8/17/12 at 6:49am
One more solution - I am using this. Get a WDTV SMP for $80 and a pocket sized lcd monitor from amazon/ebay/dealxtreme etc for about $20. All your local music collection is accessible now along with internet radios like pandora, shoutcast, live365 etc. If you want to splurge little bit (I did), you can take spotify premium subscription for $9.99 per month and then you have all music at your fingertips streamed from the cloud. spotify can also clean your local mp3 collection using grcenote and tag them correctly, enabling to easily manage/browse your local collection. You can also use your iphone/android phone and use the wdtv remote app (I have not used it yet). You can potentially integrate the LCD monitors within the drywall to have that AV control look and also use the HDMI port from the WDTV SMP for video distribution to nearby projector (e.g. backyard), flat screen TV etc. This way each WDTV SMP becomes access point at each location serving as outlet for audio/video.
Edited by kousikb - 8/17/12 at 7:36am
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post #25 of 47
8/19/12 at 7:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kousikb View Post

One more solution - I am using this. Get a WDTV SMP for $80 and a pocket sized lcd monitor from amazon/ebay/dealxtreme etc for about $20. All your local music collection is accessible now along with internet radios like pandora, shoutcast, live365 etc. If you want to splurge little bit (I did), you can take spotify premium subscription for $9.99 per month and then you have all music at your fingertips streamed from the cloud. spotify can also clean your local mp3 collection using grcenote and tag them correctly, enabling to easily manage/browse your local collection. You can also use your iphone/android phone and use the wdtv remote app (I have not used it yet). You can potentially integrate the LCD monitors within the drywall to have that AV control look and also use the HDMI port from the WDTV SMP for video distribution to nearby projector (e.g. backyard), flat screen TV etc. This way each WDTV SMP becomes access point at each location serving as outlet for audio/video.

Since when is WDTV whole house? mine certainly is not.
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post #26 of 47
8/19/12 at 5:59pm
I highly recommend a Squeezebox setup. I have the Duet and the Touch, and they both work very well. I love the ipod like remote of Duet, which I still use to run my system if I'm not near the Touch. Of course the Touch does more and can give you hi-rez 96/24 output, or even higher with hack. The LogiTech Media Server has been very solid for me. I ripped all my CD's with dBpoweramp, which I highly recommend as well. I have had a Squeezebox setup for over four years with very few issues.
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post #27 of 47
8/20/12 at 10:02am
I am a little late on this thread, but I would ask why you are using Sonos with dedicated receivers instead of getting the Sonos units with built-in amp?

I have 4 sonos w/amp and one without (in my media room). The one without an amp I use the least because I have to turn on the receiver and have two remotes to control the music and the volume. Sounds petty, I know, but who needs the bother.

I would suggest buy two sonos 120, run two rooms off of one of them (four speakers) - then buy the third in the future. Recoup some money by not buying the receivers, they just add complexity with little value when you are talking about ambient music. My DVD/CD player hasn't been turned on in a year, so I am not sure what else I get out of a dedicated receiver.
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post #28 of 47
8/20/12 at 10:08am
One more point - you are clearly a smart, technical guy, which is valuable. But I would estimate the value of your time before you go off on this endeavor. Setting up servers, integrating laptops, cleaning up and synchronizing libraries will be tens of hours (at least). If you hire yourself out for even a fraction of the number of hours you could dedicate to integration on this project, you will likely make enough to cover several Sonos units, which you will love and your wife will actually use.

This is a tough pill for us folks that like to tinker: Putting stuff together is fun. But this is one case where the packaged product is simply so much better than anything you (or I) could cobble together, and it will actually bring you joy!

(note, I am a software guy with absolutely no relation to Sonos except as a customer)
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post #29 of 47
8/20/12 at 5:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by archbid View Post

I would suggest buy two sonos 120, run two rooms off of one of them (four speakers) - then buy the third in the future.

I was thinking about doing this for my "whole home audio." Question for you, if you run a single sonos 120 handling two different rooms, each of the rooms would have to listen to the same thing though right? Or does sonos have the ability to split two different streams to each of the rooms independently?
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post #30 of 47
8/25/12 at 2:43pm
This is just the thread I wanted to start :-)

I've been looking at sonos, but I'd like something that hooks into my wider a/v setup. I too already have several existing amps & stereos in the house I'd like to utilize. I'm looking to make the move from WMC & mediabrowser to XBMC in each room. With the XSqueeze addin to XBMC that's got to be one of the best extensible unified interfaces around. Running it on a cheap android device something like a pivos XIOS attached to each amp or tv or stereo would deliver that same glorious experience.

Me personally it's the route I'm going to take with a few of the Sumvision nano slim+ (XIOS equivalent). I'll use the WMC machine as a media hub,or my qnap box I have. When the pvr is sorted I can't see a single interface beating this. I'm sure Sonos or other point solutions may be better or more reliable, but for a single solution, I'd like to know if there is better.

** edit - thought I should add that the nano android devices are cheap too @ less then £80 in the UK.
Edited by MikeyTT - 8/26/12 at 3:07am
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